Williams Flywheel

[NJB13]

Before the year started I really liked the flywheel-instead-of-batteries KERS system Williams was toying. SO I was pretty disappointed when they didn't implement it this season.

Even though it didn't work for their car this year, it seems they have been pushing ahead with the technology and are trying to make it a commercial venture. Read about it here.

It would be great to see a KERS system that was actually green.

[justjesper]

And batteries are not ? The fly wheel can not store the energy how is that green ?

[NJB13]

And batteries are not ? The fly wheel can not store the energy how is that green ?

No, batteries are definitely not green - in fact they are the opposite. Most batteries also use highly toxic materials (that's why you're not even supposed to dispose of the humble "Ever Ready" household batteries in your household refuse). Electric car batteries use rare earths. These are fare rarer commodities than oil. Not only are they extremely rare, but they are also pretty much available from only one country in the world, DPR China, where the people that mine these rare earths work in sub-standard labour conditions and for a pittance of a wage.

The flywheel on the other hand does not rely on a storage media as such, so uses no such resources, it simply uses the inertia of the flywheel to store and recover the energy from.

[Jacquesvw]

No, batteries are definitely not green - in fact they are the opposite. Most batteries also use highly toxic materials (that's why you're not even supposed to dispose of the humble "Ever Ready" household batteries in your household refuse). Electric car batteries use rare earths. These are fare rarer commodities than oil. Not only are they extremely rare, but they are also pretty much available from only one country in the world, DPR China, where the people that mine these rare earths work in sub-standard labour conditions and for a pittance of a wage.

The flywheel on the other hand does not rely on a storage media as such, so uses no such resources, it simply uses the inertia of the flywheel to store and recover the energy from.

Rare earths? What are you talking about?

Most normal car batteries are lead-acid batteries. They are made up of plates of lead and separate plates of lead dioxide, which are submerged into an electrolyte solution of sulfuric acid and water.
Lead is bad for the environment if dumped somewhere, but thats why you hand your old battery in for recycling when getting a new one.

Lead–acid battery recycling is one of the most successful recycling programs in the world. In the United States 97% of all battery lead was recycled between 1997 and 2001.[18] An effective pollution control system is a necessity to prevent lead emission. Continuous improvement in battery recycling plants and furnace designs is required to keep pace with emission standards for lead smelters.

F1 KERS doesn't use lead-acid batteries though, they probably use Lithium-ion batteries. Maybe they don't even use batteries, but supercapacitors?

[NJB13]

Rare earths? What are you talking about?

Please note I was talking about "electric car" batteries, not the normal lead acid battery of a combustion engine, which I think is what you are referring to. Electric car's, their batteries definitely use rare earths exactly as I've described, both in their storage batteries and other components such as the high powered magnets etc. I think I read somewhere that each Prius has over 10Kgs of rare earths in its construction.

Most normal car batteries are lead-acid batteries. They are made up of plates of

lead and separate plates of lead dioxide, which are submerged into an electrolyte solution of sulfuric

acid and water.
Lead is bad for the environment if dumped somewhere, but thats why you hand your old battery in for

recycling when getting a new one.

Well, the requirement to hand in lead batteries is because of how toxic they are. Once the lead is concetrated, it becomes much more dangerous. The recycling plants themselves are subject to environmental focus because the furnaces used to reprocess the lead produce extremely toxic outputs, and the controls on these have been subject to a lot of attention and focus. Lead is simply toxic, and the greater the concentration and processing the greater the risk. These days there is a focus on reducing or stopping its use. That's why lead is no longer used in petrol and paints (well mostly).

F1 KERS doesn't use lead-acid batteries though, they probably use Lithium-ion batteries. Maybe they don't even use batteries, but supercapacitors?

Most of the F1 KERS do indeed use Saft Lithium-ion batteries. Whilst these batteries are a little better than their rare earth counterparts they still pose dangers and threats beyond the obvious dangers of them leaking and exploding.

I was interested in the Williams KERS because it was using a flywheel concept to store and retrieve the energy and that had interesting possibilities.

[Homan13PSU]

If I'm not mistaken, electric cars (Prius, Volt, etc.) are using either Nickel-Metal Hydride, Li-ION or Zebra (molten salt). None of those use rare earths as a part of their catalyst properties. In fact, the only rare earths mentioned in battery's are;

Lanthanum - battery-electrodes
Promethium - nuclear batteries

Don't know where you're getting that rare earths are used as battery catalysts.

[MarlboroFA]

If I'm not mistaken, electric cars (Prius, Volt, etc.) are using either Nickel-Metal Hydride, Li-ION or Zebra (molten salt). None of those use rare earths as a part of their catalyst properties. In fact, the only rare earths mentioned in battery's are;

Lanthanum - battery-electrodes
Promethium - nuclear batteries

Don't know where you're getting that rare earths are used as battery catalysts.

here you go : http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/...57U02B20090831

besides these hybrids and electric cars, are just a waist of money and time...Hydrogen is the future...

[Jacquesvw]

oh

[Homan13PSU]

here you go : http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/...57U02B20090831

besides these hybrids and electric cars, are just a waist of money and time...Hydrogen is the future...

Interesting, thank you.

Couldn't agree more on hybrids.