Ferrari says only small improvements needed to fight for 2012 F1 title

[scuderiafan]

it was 20 secs at the end, then he chose to take last turn at road car speed. iirc.

[Kyss4k]

I just finished watching 2008 Brazilian GP and I am crying again... I hope Ferrari will have winning car once again next season so Felipe can finally revenge himself.

[Tifoso]

*sigh*

[M.K]

it was 20 secs at the end, then he chose to take last turn at road car speed. iirc.

no mediums in that race..., that's our problem Nr.1. No point of making car that is "kind" on the tires if we can't get temperature up and still pit same time as the rest of front runners in most races.

[Nova]

angry or what lol

lol

[Nova]

FIA wanted to ban those engine mapping that the teams are using to ensure the diffuser is still being blown even when the driver is not pressing the throttle, but the whole thing turned into a mess because Mercedes was allowed to do something with their engine off-throttle, can't remember what it was, but they claim it was important for their engine reliability, so Red Bull went to the FIA to argue that they too need their off-throttle thing for reliability.

All of this happened at Silverstone weekend itself. So FIA decide to revert the ban, but only the following race, so for that one race, they could not effectively use their EBD concept.

Wow, thanks..And if they told them that wolverines make good housepets?

[Poltergeistes]

I think Dom is just playing, he himself said not long ago, the car for 2012 will be a complete different car from this season, because yes, as much as is nice to be almost catching the redbulls pace, this is the end of the season, when all the championships have been lost for us.

I don't want another season where ferrari is racing all season long to catch Redbull, to win championships we must have a competitive car from the start.

[hogo]

Exactly. Alonso didn't just win at Silverstone he pretty well dominated. Stretched out at one time I think it was a 14 sec. gap.

Not really. We took 3rd and 4th in quali while RB had 1st and 2nd. I would agree on dominance thing if we would have crushed ALL our rivals by 1s or so, like RB usually does.

Yes on a race trim we looked better. Actually we didn't look that great in the first part of the race, but yeah we had the fastest car from the middle of the race or so.

[impactX]

I think Dom is just playing, he himself said not long ago, the car for 2012 will be a complete different car from this season, because yes, as much as is nice to be almost catching the redbulls pace, this is the end of the season, when all the championships have been lost for us.

I don't want another season where ferrari is racing all season long to catch Redbull, to win championships we must have a competitive car from the start.

And they also just said they are testing 2012 parts on the car this year... LOL so how different can it be?

I will believe when I see a red car destroying the RB next year. Until then, it will be empty promises much like the last 2 season openers.

[Greig]

What have you been promised?

[Naeem]

I hate to point out that the pace in Suzuka was hugely limited by the tyres. I.e. all three top teams pushed as hard as the tyres would allow... any faster and we'd have felt it massively at the end of each stint hence why all 6 top cars were pretty much in a row.

[Rob]

I hate to point out that the pace in Suzuka was hugely limited by the tyres. I.e. all three top teams pushed as hard as the tyres would allow... any faster and we'd have felt it massively at the end of each stint hence why all 6 top cars were pretty much in a row.

Pirelli will be changing the compounds slightly next year.

[Rob]

FIA wanted to ban those engine mapping that the teams are using to ensure the diffuser is still being blown even when the driver is not pressing the throttle, but the whole thing turned into a mess because Mercedes was allowed to do something with their engine off-throttle, can't remember what it was, but they claim it was important for their engine reliability, so Red Bull went to the FIA to argue that they too need their off-throttle thing for reliability.

All of this happened at Silverstone weekend itself. So FIA decide to revert the ban, but only the following race, so for that one race, they could not effectively use their EBD concept.

it all kicked off Saturday, found this...

In the background of today’s exciting Grand Prix at Silverstone, the teams agreed to a plan for the rest of the season on the off throttle blown diffuser issue.

After a meeting this morning at which Sauber refused to sign an agreement to revert to the rules as they were in Valencia, this afternoon a unanimous agreement was reached. So from Germany onwards teams can go back to what they were doing before, only they will not be allowed to change engine maps between qualifying and the race.

Then at the end of the season, blown diffusers will be banned once and for all.

Ferrari boss Stefano Domenicali said, “I think that this thing was not really good for everyone. We need to draw a line and now look ahead, because otherwise where we are going? Even if I think I don’t agree with the process, for the benefit of the sport we should have action.”

Ferrari certainly benefitted today from the patched together agreement reached for this race only on Saturday. THis saw teams operating with between 10% and 20% of throttle open on lift off of the accelerator.

Although Ferrari has made progress with its car, Red Bull seem to have lost a couple of tenths of a second more this weekend. With the old arrangement back in place for the rest of the season, it is likely that this will put Red Bull in a better place than they were in this weekend, according to engineers I’ve spoken to this evening.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/0...e-order-again/

[Rob]

found better article on Scarbs blog

Scarbsf1's Blog
10% rule: Full analysis


UPDATE: As with many of these issues arising over a GP weekend, its a rapidly developing story. The position given to me by the teams ast night, has since changed, as Charlie whiting considered the situation overnight. For the balance of the British GP, Mercedes engined cars (McLaren, Mercedes GP, Force India) will be able to use their fired-overrun. As this was pre-agreed with the FIA for reliability reasons. However Renault Sports request for their larger overrun throttle opening was requested after the event had started. Thus Chalrie Whiting decided that, as the technical regulations for the event need to be agreed before the event, Renaults request was inadmissible for this event. Thus they have to meet the original technical directive on throttle opening and not the 50% they had lobbied for. This leaves Renault having to run a mapping which is not optimal for reliability and Mercedes can run their mapping.

After much expectation on the effect of the 10% off-throttle limit, what transpired over the opening practice sessions brought more confusion than clarification. As practice got under way it transpires that the expected 10% limit was in fact not applied to all teams, nor was the dispensation to the different engine manufacturers communicated clearly to all the others. This brought much confusion to fans and media alike, as well as bringing a heated debate between Martin Whitmarsh and Christian Horner in the Friday press conference. Its been reported that Renault engines have been dispensation to run at up to 50% throttle when the driver is off the throttle pedal, and slightly less well reported that Mercedes engined teams are able to run a fired overrun.

However, the situation was explained to me by several key technical staff in the Silverstone pit lane. The communication and political issues notwithstanding, the status is at least technically clear.

Firstly I gained detail of what the proposed 10% rule actually consisted of. In order to prevent teams using off-throttle engine maps to continue to drive airflow over the diffuser for aerodynamic benefit, the FIA proposed a pair of changes to what’s allowed when the driver comes off the throttle pedal. Firstly the well known 10% limit on the throttle opening, but secondly a ban on injecting fuel into the engine when off the throttle. The intention of this pair of changes was to ban both hot and cold blown engine maps.

Of course this was the FIA proposal; the original date of the Spanish GP was delayed while the teams lobbied their cases to the FIA, giving their reasons why such changes were unworkable given the timescales and restrictions on development.

Now we need to understand what goes on within the engine when a driver lifts off the throttle and the subsequent effect that has on other aspects of the car. Unlike in road cars the driver in an F1 car doesn’t leisurely lift off the throttle and delay the braking phase. Instead the driver may be at near maximum revs, when he will simultaneously lift off the throttle pedal completely and hit the brake pedal hard for the initial downforce aided braking event. During the braking event the gears will be sequentially selected, further peaking revs as the car slows. This sudden closing of the throttles blocks off the inlet to the combustion chamber, but the cylinder will continue to pump up and down at a great rate. This creates huge stresses inside the combustion chamber and the vacuum created will suck air past the piston rings. This will rapidly slow the engine, creating too much engine braking effect, which in turns creates downstream stresses in the drive train and over-brakes the engine. The excessive engine braking effect will make the car nervous on throttle lift off, regardless of any subsequent aerodynamic effect.

So engine manufacturers find different solutions to ease the stresses and braking effect of the driver lifting off the throttle. In the seasons before EBDs there were several different strategies in place, the driver was able to alter overrun setting to tunes the cars handling, and driver switching between teams found the change in overrun settings needed some adjustment to both their driving style and sometimes with the engines settings. So overrun settings were already an issue before EBDs, and many strategies were already outside the intentions f the 10% rule.

Renault have been open and said their engine already runs open throttles on the overrun, this both eases the blow-by and stress issues, it also usefully cooled the exhaust valve, an alternative to using excess fuel to cool the back of the valve. This year the Renault sport are believed to be running as much as 90% open throttle on the overrun. This is what’s best known as cold-blown mapping. Earlier this season and through out free practice at Silverstone, the three Renault engined teams, had a distinctive loud overrun note, which continues briefly as the drivers picked up the throttle out of slow turns. As the throttles are open more than other teams, the induction noise is far greater.

Mercedes HPE, equally have their solution, this is the so called fired-overrun. When the driver lifts off, fuel continues to be injected into the engine and sparked within the combustion chamber. This offsets the engine braking effect created by the engine, giving a smoother transition from on throttle to the overrun when off it. As a result this means there is less engine braking effect. This gives Mercedes the freedom to define braking bias and KERS charging, without having to account for engine braking. Effectively decoupling the engine braking effect from the actual action of the braking system. As with Renault’s pre-EBD mapping Mercedes solution is analogous to the hot blowing mapping. At Silverstone the Mercedes engined teams had a particularly clean overrun sound. Where as Ferrari had far more cracks and pops as the engine slowed.

With both engine manufacturers having long established overrun strategies that have critical impacts on the basic engine design or the braking system, it will be hard to rapidly switch to a very strict overrun mapping as demanded by the 10% rule. Both manufacturers lobbied the FIA to be allowed to retain elements of these old overrun strategies, while still emasculating their current strategies. The FIA have been able to see the mappings used in 2009 through to the current day, as the code is held by the FIA since the advent of the single ECU (SECU). They’ve been able to see the engines have had these long established mappings, but also how they have become more aggressive since the EBD has been developed.
So the FIA relented and although we will commonly call this the 10% rule, the actual throttle will allowed up to 50% and some fuel can still be injected and burnt in the engine. This sounds like a climb down by the FIA and unfair to different engine manufacturers. But the unreported events at Silverstone this afternoon are fairer than the picture being painted by the teams and the media. Its true that Renault were given their greater throttle opening, but also Mercedes were given their fired-overrun, but these dispensations have been given to every engine manufacturer, so Ferrari could have more throttle opening or Cosworth could develop a fired overrun. As I understand you can one but not both of these options, so no 50%-open with a fired-overrun.
Although the communication and timing of these clarifications appears to be wanting, the final rules clarification meets the basic needs of individual engine suppliers, but still maintains parity between the four parties involved. There is no doubt this allows some secondary benefit of greater flow through the diffuser on the overrun, but this is still greatly reduced over what’s been raced already this year. So there will be reduced aero effect and no further arms race in developing these aggressive strategies. After the furore dies we have been left with w reasonable compromise on reducing engine effect on aerodynamics, before the fuller bans comes into effect with periscope exhausts next year.


http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/0...full-analysis/

[EL NANO]

Stefano is right, we are not far away, wow effect cars are rarely all that good and seem to suggest you have ran out of idea's and throw it on, thinking about the chin-wing, Williams walruss nose.

Red Bull does not say wow to me, what we need is a racing car wow or not

AMEN!

[EL NANO]

The only reason why we looked so good in Japan was because of Alonso's supreme driving. We were probably about 3-4 tenth slower than McLaren and Red Bull. Martin Brundle noted how much better the RB7 looked when Vettel was trying to pass Alonso and Brundle also noticed how the McLaren looked better through 130R towards the end when Alonso was catching Button.

Big improvements are needed next year. Thats the only way we'll win.

I agree Alonso helped but in Quali Massa was fast too.. We are looking good

[PURE PASSION]

I just read this: Ferrari’s first priority is to have a better car for 2012, and Domenicali revealed that only minor “details” of the current Italia 150 car will be saved.

“We will change everything; even the steering wheel,” he said.

[Grillo]

F150 is a no winner. They know it and we will see a completely new car in 2012. The rules have been basically the same for a couple of seasons but next season we have the EBD ban which could bring a new thing to the sketch board and I hope it's Ferrari who brings it and make it work better than anybody else.

That would be a wow for me but a competitive car through out the 2012 season is just what we need.

[Tifoso]

F150 is a no winner. They know it and we will see a completely new car in 2012. The rules have been basically the same for a couple of seasons but next season we have the EBD ban which could bring a new thing to the sketch board and I hope it's Ferrari who brings it and make it work better than anybody else.

That would be a wow for me but a competitive car through out the 2012 season is just what we need.

I think that if we are a strong close #2, Alonso can win the titles

[Rishu]

I think that if we are a strong close #2, Alonso can win the titles

I am sure Newey/Horner/Vettel are aware of this

F150 is a no winner. They know it and we will see a completely new car in 2012. The rules have been basically the same for a couple of seasons but next season we have the EBD ban which could bring a new thing to the sketch board and I hope it's Ferrari who brings it and make it work better than anybody else.

That would be a wow for me but a competitive car through out the 2012 season is just what we need.

F150 is no dog either. I think Ferrari will study the current car carefully to understand why it looked better in some tracks (Monaco, Suzuka etc.) & why it looked miles away in others. There are certainly lot of inputs from it which could help F2012. Reliabilty, KERS, DRS have pan out well.

[racingbradley]

I guess we will have to wait and see maybe hope and pray as well

In the last few years what I have noticed is that we perform so well in testing (granted it's not a level playing field as there are many variables) The jurnos et al get very excited as we appear to be the class of the field on long runs until Australia.

Somehow and it's my opinion so I am sticking with it RB always find a loophole in the rules and the only thing wrong with that is we didn't think of it instead.
Now if I recall correctly we did in the past.

No I am not looking for heads to roll just more attention to detail and less promises. Let's do the talking on track and maintain a little bit of mystery and less openness.
I have had my rant

[Alonsomaniac]

At the moment the gap is not very big, correct.
BUT:

We will have to close that little gap + RB and McLaren will be faster too next year so that is another little gap + we will have to be faster than they are next year and that's a third little gap.....

So all together it is quite a gap we have to overcome and in order to do that we need a very different car, a real Ferrari.

So Stefano, kick some butt and build it!!

[NanoTheQuickest]

We all know someone is ready to kick Newey's Butt again, and has changed around most of the design that was already in production for the next model!

I have the feeling the red ladies will be fast not only next year but the ones to come.

[Tifoso]

We all know someone is ready to kick Newey's Butt again, and has changed around most of the design that was already in production for the next model!

I have the feeling the red ladies will be fast not only next year but the ones to come.

I hope that you're right

[F1NAC]

we have Rory again and he will kick Newey's --- :d

[FrankAlfa]

I think in the end, Stefano's comments are that Ferrari has the ability to match the current best and they only need a few 10's to catch and pass them. We know that the 2012 race car is a very different beast and because several key people from prior year are no longer with the team and an old genius is back doing for Ferrari what he has always done best! So to Stefano, Pat, Rory, Nick, Luca and the rest of the Gestione Sportiva technical department of Management and Engineering Staff I say Forza Ferrari!!!!!!!

Ciao!

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[schumi1]

we have Rory

[hogo]

we have Rory again and he will kick Newey's --- :d

I know Rory is a WAYYYY better than Newey but even he can't create a miracle in just half a year! Actually I hope that he's working on 2013 car already and just giving some tips for 2012 contender :)

[Kyss4k]

I know Rory is a WAYYYY better than Newey but even he can't create a miracle in just half a year! Actually I hope that he's working on 2013 car already and just giving some tips for 2012 contender :)

I thought he came as just a consultant (or something like that). Is he really back and doing his magic again?

[scuderiafan]

I thought he came as just a consultant (or something like that). Is he really back and doing his magic again?

there have been reports that his role has become more active, and he is more involved with Pat on the car.