Alonso - I give up!!!!!

[justjesper]

Thinks some people here need to watch what he is saying again !

I think Fernando explaines the whole situation about what he said and also regarding Massa.
Is it that people here do not understand what Alonso is saying or just wanna make up there own mind ?

[Agron]

even Fernando doesn't agree with you. You do believe him don't you?

IMO that was PR speech, at least facts contradict his words.
He has been witchhunted since 2006-2007, to the point when whenever he doesn't say something that is completely PR correct and absolutely bland he gets flamed. In this case saying something like he was faster than Felipe but wasn't allowed to overtake would give him no rewards: the team wouldn't appreciate it, Felipe would hate it, press would call him liar and teamwrecker and haters would have a field day. It can't be proven anyway, so the intelligent thing is the PR speech of him not being able to run faster than Massa anyway (although suddendly when Massa isn't in front he is more than 0.5s a lap faster) and let the team think things by themselves.

Believe what you will.

[Alonsomaniac]

Okay, heard Fernando's explanation. In the end it seems we were wrong and Felipe was not holding him up at all.
I have said that it was a mistake of the team to not let Fernando pass, but Fernando proves I was wrong.
Just like Fernando I too would like to know now what was different in the last stint that made the car so much faster....

But one thing is a fact: Fernando is not a PR talker. So what he says is , like it always was, what he wants to say. That he says something else to the team is another matter.

[Tifosi]

So he's fibbing to help protect someone? It must be a conspiracy then!

[dpiatto]

5th & 6th was the best possible results for both Alonso & Massa.
Ferrari currently have the 3rd fastest car so the end result reflects that.
Looks like there will be no Ferrari miracles this year even though those last laps by Alonso looked promising.
Typical of the whole season,just never enough.
Oh well fingers crossed for next year.

[Agron]

So he's fibbing to help protect someone? It must be a conspiracy then!

No conspiracy, he is helping himself. I think over the years he has learned that the media are always his enemy -as with many other public figures-, and is acting accordingly, not giving them even an ounce of ammunition.
As I said, believe what you will, I think sometimes people working in F1 come to the media and say things that may be untrue or only partly true, to suit their interests.

[Suzie]

actions speak louder than words

what was his performance like in the last stint?

What I didn't like was FA being stuck behind a second rate Massa for 30 laps.

Alonso knows how to overtake, yes?

[Alonsomaniac]

Alonso knows how to overtake, yes?

Right. And he explained why he didn't. Was that the truth? I can't say for sure, but I hope so.

Edit: I watched his explanation a few extra times and I think now he is just telling how it was. No more, no less. Or else he is a great actor.........

[Tifosi]

No conspiracy, he is helping himself. I think over the years he has learned that the media are always his enemy -as with many other public figures-, and is acting accordingly, not giving them even an ounce of ammunition.
As I said, believe what you will, I think sometimes people working in F1 come to the media and say things that may be untrue or only partly true, to suit their interests.

So he could have overtaken Massa after all but he chose not to in the end then?

[justjesper]

[Elvis]

All different opinions, arguments and even bashing in this thread and others just show how frustrated we, Ferrari's fans, are with the cars.

I think it's very difficult to overtake in this track, even if you are 0.5 second faster and 5th and 6th are about the true position of the car, so there is really no need to talk about Massa/Alonso. The good thing about this result is that hopefully it wakes up some people who is still in a "the car just needs a small improvement" dream.

[Poltergeistes]

I think any (and specially him) driver, will put on a fast stint when theres a big gap ahaed of them. in the end both drivers said the same thing, saying with one kind of tyre they weren't as fast as they were with another. but just keep in mind whenever there's a close gap between a couple cars, BOTH will put on slower times, either because they are trying to overtake or if they are trying to defend from being overtaken, anybody notice lewis and webber?

What would be the point of letting felipe and fernando in such positions? where they have to fight like that just to switch positions, what would be the point of having another message sent on the radio "fernando is faster than you" and just humiliate felipe for nothing? humiliate fernando for nothing?

Wait, and make no mistake if in 2012 we have a contender car, like in 2010, the team will let em race for their own (like bahrein and china) but will call it what it is when only one guy has a shot at the championship and the other doesn't. hopefully both our guys would be fighting for it till the end, and keeping both championships in maranello, that's always the goal isn't it?

[Hornet]

All different opinions, arguments and even bashing in this thread and others just show how frustrated we, Ferrari's fans, are with the cars.

I think it's very difficult to overtake in this track, even if you are 0.5 second faster and 5th and 6th are about the true position of the car, so there is really no need to talk about Massa/Alonso. The good thing about this result is that hopefully it wakes up some people who is still in a "the car just needs a small improvement" dream.

Yep. Overtaking is a much more difficult and complex thing than what some people here realize. Its not just about the relative speed between two car or drivers. Relative speed difference only shows up in lap times. In overtaking, the mechanics is difference, primarily due to the heavy reliance on the front wing to generate downforce.

[Rishu]

Yep. Overtaking is a much more difficult and complex thing than what some people here realize. Its not just about the relative speed between two car or drivers. Relative speed difference only shows up in lap times. In overtaking, the mechanics is difference, primarily due to the heavy reliance on the front wing to generate downforce.

Tell this to Lewis

[sv_godspeed]

actually, FA ran out of fuel and stopped out on the circuit on the slowing down lap, so it was probably a message from the pits to "give up" and turn down the fuel that he was responding to...
on Felipe vs. Fernando, it didnt really look to me like Felipe was "holding up" Fernando this time around - they were pretty evenly matched and Fernando didn't even make a move to overtake (except maybe for a half-move when they were both battling with Webber early on)...

[Elvis]

actually, FA ran out of fuel and stopped out on the circuit on the slowing down lap, so it was probably a message from the pits to "give up" and turn down the fuel that he was responding to...
on Felipe vs. Fernando, it didnt really look to me like Felipe was "holding up" Fernando this time around - they were pretty evenly matched and Fernando didn't even make a move to overtake (except maybe for a half-move when they were both battling with Webber early on)...

... and another move when both overtook Rosberg

[Meiga]

Tell this to Lewis

Well, if you don't mind crashing often when trying to overtake, you can obviously go for much more aggressive moves, and some of them do pay off even if the other driver is ballistic at your lack of fair play (ask Massa)

[Agron]

So he could have overtaken Massa after all but he chose not to in the end then?

Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't. To me it seems like he didn't try as hard as say, Button on Hamilton, or Hamilton on Button, or Alonso and Massa against anyone who isn't a teammate.

[Alessandra]

Fernando Alonso can look very irritated indeed when he is so. Doesn't look at all like that to me from the clips.
He's also quite capable of expressing anger verbally - I don't hear it.
So he 'gave up' on getting a podium in the last two laps - pretty sane judgement under the circumstances I'd have thought
Was it a thought-through judgement - yes, as he explained in clip.
Did he put in a little flourish at the end - rather than sulking and limping round just to show how fed up he was or how hopeless the car - yes he did.

He's not a kid any more and he's served his Ferrari apprenticieship now. Over and over again he says how much he loves being at Ferrari but this doesn't mean he can't sometimes be critical . I guess that's partially what they employ him for!
They know him and his professionalism and what he puts in race after race and he knows and appreciates them. I'm sure the guys on the pit lane accepted what he was saying completely with no hard feelings.
There may be some drivers who'd get a verbal clip round the ear from the team manager after such a comment but I'd be surprised if FA was one of them!!

[Tifosi]

Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't. To me it seems like he didn't try as hard as say, Button on Hamilton, or Hamilton on Button, or Alonso and Massa against anyone who isn't a teammate.

IMO, Ferrari drivers can't overtake each other on track unless the one in front makes a mistake or there's a very big speed differential enough to provide a perfectly safe pass.
We saw it in 2010, no point denying it, and we saw it this race too.
It is a strategy that has it's merits when both drivers are fast and are fighting for high places, but when you have the best driver on the grid behind one who isn't currently very well adapted to the car figthing for 6th and 7th, you are destroying the chance of a good points finish to avoid the small risk of losing a pretty mediocre amount of points.
Had Alonso been allowed to overtake Massa on track just as he would attack any other driver, he would have passed him and gotten 2nd place very likely, instead of getting stuck 30 laps behind him, gotten the worse strategy (do they really need to give the car behind a strategy that sends them 3 places behind every race??? it has happened to Massa all year too), and being allowed to fight only for 15 laps, not enough to do anything but close enough for us to realize how much better it could have been.

IMO this message, as others said, is not of giving up, but one of disagreement with that internal order, which makes no sense under the current circumstances.

I think you are largely on the money there. The issue some of us have here I think is not to do with who is our best driver or indeed with the basic logic of team mates allowing one another through if they are on different strategies to maximise a result - and it pays the team to do so. Indeed, 2nd place is better than 5th or 6th and you cant argue that either.

Personally I think the issue some have (myself included) is the usual assumptions made by some very specific driver fans who immediately jump to any conclusion that defends their driver regardless of the nature of the incident and nearly always uses "It's for the good of Ferrari" as their justification for wanting the other driver to move over.

As others have said in the case of Massa, he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't.

If Ferrari did believe that they were racing for position at that stage of the race and let them do it anyway then that's more important to Ferrari at this stage of the season clearly and it's their decison - just as it was in Germany 2010 when it was more important to them to fight for the WDC than to protect Felipe's race lead. Similarly, if they failed to realise and cocked-up on Sunday then equally it's Ferrari's domain.

What's gauling is those who would put the decision on Massa for simply doing his job and not crumpling in a heap when the No. 1 driver appears in his mirrors. Ferrari were fighting for the WDC at Germany 2010 but they weren't on Sunday. Massa is fighting to prove himself against his team mate just as all team mates do. If a (non-relevant to WCC or WDC) second place was more important to them (Ferrari) than letting their drivers race then they would have acted accordingly. If Massa failed to obey a team order then we would know about it!

It's not a massive issue really but personally I don't think anything less than a race win (which they could not have probably have foreseen at that stage of the race) would make Ferrari use team orders to belittle one of their drivers position on track - given that the WCC was decided and that the WDC was decided also.

So whilst I agree with what you say and would argue against Massa blocking Alonso against team wishes, I don't think it's fair for some Alonso fans to assume that Ferrari have given him a divine right to pass his team mate at will in any circumstance - and i don't believe Alonso assumes that either

[Agron]

I agree, of course, Massa's job is to get the best result for Ferrari for his car, it is Stefano's job to implement team directives and orders. I also dislike team orders, and would prefer for both drivers to race freely while respecting each other unless there's something big at stake or if they are competing against a team that uses team orders all the time, and even then only if needed.
The problem is when the only way they are allowed to pass each other is when the team principal orders the driver in front to move, because then either one of the drivers race gets destroyed as he isn't allowed to overtake, or there's a scandal as the driver in front moves over. I think you either choose to let them race freely, you have a clear nr 1 and nr 2, or you have objective rules, like the 3s rule that was hinted last year.
I feel right now they have a mess that just doesn't work, neither in points nor with team morale, and yet they are harvesting just as bad PR as if they had a clear nr1 nr2 driver policy.

[Sathish Kumar]

FA is the best driver and with this car he is able to push and get podiums then if given the car he would the champion by a long way

[Sathish Kumar]

Massa can never win another race, if not with Ferrari he can't with any other team, he is not an asset but only a Liability. Its time Ferrari thinks for another driver who can win points and podiums and not keep **** blaming

[Greig]

[Tifoso]

Massa can never win another race, if not with Ferrari he can't with any other team, he is not an asset but only a Liability. Its time Ferrari thinks for another driver who can win points and podiums and not keep **** blaming

Ice?

[epiclyaddicted]

+1

[Suzie]

Massa can never win another race, if not with Ferrari he can't with any other team, he is not an asset but only a Liability. Its time Ferrari thinks for another driver who can win points and podiums and not keep **** blaming

Aww, someone's unhappy that Felipe dared to be in front of Fernando yesterday, then. SADFACE.

[Alonsomaniac]

Right.

[Tifosi]

Massa can never win another race, if not with Ferrari he can't with any other team, he is not an asset but only a Liability. Its time Ferrari thinks for another driver who can win points and podiums and not keep **** blaming

Welcome to this Ferrari forum

[Tifosi]

I agree, of course, Massa's job is to get the best result for Ferrari for his car, it is Stefano's job to implement team directives and orders. I also dislike team orders, and would prefer for both drivers to race freely while respecting each other unless there's something big at stake or if they are competing against a team that uses team orders all the time, and even then only if needed.
The problem is when the only way they are allowed to pass each other is when the team principal orders the driver in front to move, because then either one of the drivers race gets destroyed as he isn't allowed to overtake, or there's a scandal as the driver in front moves over. I think you either choose to let them race freely, you have a clear nr 1 and nr 2, or you have objective rules, like the 3s rule that was hinted last year.
I feel right now they have a mess that just doesn't work, neither in points nor with team morale, and yet they are harvesting just as bad PR as if they had a clear nr1 nr2 driver policy.

i think you might be right Agron - but I still don't think one of their objectives is to give one driver a "potentially better shot at a podium place" based on nothing but the current situation in the current race and at the potential expense of the morale of the other. Unless Ferrari benefits of course (and would they?) - why would they make that subjective call that hindsight seems to make some believe was the only course of action?