Full Member
Pat Fry after the race:
We had various updates at this race which, to some extent, did not work as we had expected. We must understand why and do something quickly because we no longer have much time.
I am confused,he said that upgrades are promising after friday FPs.
Full Member
The story of our year....Originally Posted by type056
"That has made me fall in love with Ferrari even more today than ever." Fernando Alonso
loves Sweden
I'd say its too late anway with 2 races to go. And i'm sure Pat knows that as well, for this season what could be done has been done.
Last edited by Hermann; 4th November 2012 at 21:24.
FERRARI FOREVER
yes i agree 1 zillion percentAccording to you 'giodap' South African Rory Byrne builtcars up to 05 and in the same period Newey could not match Rory,then I don't know why did Ferrari win so much with Schumi in that period and it was not just Shumi as the cars was good for all the drivers that were at Ferrari in that years,according to me Rory kicked Neweys behind in that period an he was the best there was even with Newey in the picture.
FERRARI In F1 =
has the prestige and passion for Motor Racing that is unrivaled
Full Member
New "downgrades" for next season...:
Alonso Maniac
What Ferrari need is improve their rear Aero package and judging by ALonso's comments their updates only seem to bring in hundreths while they should be improving by tenths...
its really sad but its quite difficult to understand why cant Ferrari improve the car????
Every race they add a new element to the FW and RW but thats not going to move us up the field,why are they not bringing more fundamental upgrades to the floor,exhaust,sidepods etc..
I Will End My Career At Ferrari...
Full Member
I believe it is the exact opposite.
Full Member
yes...according to the new rule for 2013,"the opening of the drs wing should not alter the airflow through any other hole".....lotus' system does not depend on the drs flap,but on reaching a particular speed ....
Full Member
I think it shows that we still desperately need on-track testing time. On Friday, we were trying many different combination, so we only get a few laps for each combination. In the race, we have 1.5 hours of one combination to see how it really works, how it affects the tire temperature, tire wear rate and so on.
Maybe when we see Alonso is not able to get the tires up to temperature as fast as the others, something wrong in the temperature pattern over many laps, or the tire lifespan is not what we expected, we realize the upgrades is not really working as expected.
Naughty Word Mod
sorry got it around the wrong way, so confussing this rules, just ban it all, looked up an old tweet.......
Craig Scarborough @ScarbsF1
@robertallum1 the red bull/merc DRS activiated system is banned in 2013, the passive lotus device isn't.
CAVALLINO RAMPANTE PER SEMPRE
Full Member
Lotus DDRS is NOT banned next year.DDRS Mercedes is banned.
Full Member
Lotus DDRS is NOT banned next year.DDRS Mercedes is banned.
Alonso Maniac
So if i am reading it correct then Ferrari are going to concentrate on extracting full potential of the previous upgrades..Domenicali remains cool over updates
Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali is preparing for a busy week at Maranello as his team analyses how to extract more performance from its car's latest upgrades over the next two races.
Fernando Alonso finished ahead of championship rival Sebastian Vettel at the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, narrowing the gap in the championship to ten points, but Ferrari was still a long way off the pole position pace in qualifying. The team brought a raft of new upgrades to the car, but Alonso admitted on Sunday that they had not delivered the performance he needed to take the fight to McLaren and Red Bull in qualifying.
"This will be a week that is very important to understand in detail [the updates] and do the analysis of what we've done," Domenicali said. "The other thing that is important is to understand the nature of the new track [in Austin] because no-one knows [what it will be like]. Everyone has an indication from the simulator but because I prefer the track to the simulator - I really don't like the computer - I want to see the things on the track.
"I can see a different Friday to the normal ones because it will be important that we give proper track time to the drivers to find their reference points and it is important to try to understand the tyre behaviour because it is the first time we are there. And it's important to bring the right package from the aerodynamic point of view, because that will maximise the performance we can have at that track. It will be an interesting week of analysis and an interesting weekend in Austin."
Domenicali used Lewis Hamilton's sudden improvement in qualifying pace from India to Abu Dhabi as proof that track characteristics can cause the competitiveness of cars to swing from race to race.
"I want to turn your attention to what McLaren did here," he said in Abu Dhabi. "At the last few races it seemed as though the McLaren did not work, but with no updates they did a fantastic performance here. For sure it has to be our target to improve the car and this is what our engineers should do right up until the last possible moment. But we need to consider also the conditions and we need to be perfect. If it's not enough then we will see, but that's the approach we need to take."
Asked whether he was disappointed not to take more points out of Vettel's lead in the standings after the Red Bull raced from the pit lane to the podium, Domenicali said he was happy Ferrari maximised its potential.
"[Vettel] did a great race. He was pushing as normal I would say. He had moments where he was lucky and moments where he was unlucky, but that's part of the game. There were moments when the safety car came at the right time, but this is not something you can control. He was able to start from last and get up to third so it was a perfect race for him and from our side we did the maximum. We recovered three points and no more.
"This is now the point where we need to attack over the last two races. Ten points could be a lot or it could be nothing, it depends on how the race will go. Everything can happen up until the last moment and the only thing we can do is be there if something does happen."
If that is the case then we might not see great updgrades for next race..
Full Member
You know what,that might actually be the best thing to do,so far soo many upgrades has come that has got everyone soo confused,so better have proper data on the ones already used,and make the best out of it!!
Full Member
Possibly ? but if they are very sure that those upgrades have potential and they were not able to sort out the best setup from them in one race, then it could all change in Austin.
They will still have time if they see something that they can make that would improve performance.
Surely they have to get lucky with an update some time
Its all in the name - FERRARI
Full Member
ُIs this mean that Ferrari want Massa to race with old specified car to compare two different car not because that we did not have enough parts.
Full Member
why are we still stuck with "mix and match"formula??? .....shouldnt we be getting something more(floor ,sidepods) since we've already got access to the toyota wind tunnel???
makes me wonder, was the real problem the faulty tunnel??!!! or just the lack of a strong aero team!
Full Member
We need this updates... At least something to put us on 1st or 2nd row... 15 more points and Vettel's got it... We just need Vettel to not qualify on Pole D:
Alonso Maniac
Ferrari's Update Fail to hit the Qualifying mark in AbuDhabi
There will be disappointment at Ferrari this morning on two levels; first that they were unable to take any more advantage of Sebastian Vettel’s grid penalty in Abu Dhabi than a mere three points.
And second that the raft of updates on the car at this race didn’t produce the jump in performance they were looking for.
Vettel had a bad day on Saturday and then a very good day, with some lucky breaks on the Safety Car, on Sunday, when the points were handed out.
But the problem for Ferrari is clear: Alonso qualified 7th, 0.952s behind the pole man Hamilton and although the Ferrari was quicker in the race, he didn’t have the race pace to overhaul Kimi Raikkonen’s Lotus to take the extra seven points for a win on Sunday.
He set the second fastest race lap at the end, less than a tenth off Vettel’s best on much fresher tyres, so there was some encouragement there. But it’s clear what the problem is:
“Qualifying remains our weak point. With what we had, that was the maximum,” said Fernando Alonso on Saturday, while team principal Stefano Domenicali described it as “one of our worst qualifying sessions of the season.”
After a strong rallying call from Alonso in India, suggesting that he was competing with Red Bull design guru Adrian Newey, Ferrari brought a new front and rear wing to Yas Marina as well as new turning vanes on the car, quite a substantial set of new parts. The team did extensive back to back testing in Friday practice, trying various combinations of the new parts.
The main difference with the new front wing from the previous one was a new main profile and different wing endplates, to channel the air more effectively around the front wheels and down to the highly sensitive areas of the floor.
There were also new turning vanes and a new rear wing with a more powerful DRS, to help with qualifying pace. It’s still some way short of the double DRS used by Red Bull, but Alonso hinted that Ferrari has one of those under development. It is not clear whether it will come in time to make a significant difference to their qualifying pace.
Alonso pointed to the fact that he did a 1m 41.5s lap in both Q2 and Q3, as proof that he got the maximum from the car, but what that analysis fails to account for is track improvement course there is always track improvement which is usually a significant factor in the gains drivers get on their final runs at the end of Q3.
For example, Hamilton improved by 3/10ths from Q2 to Q3, the same amount as Raikkonen, Webber and Button, while Maldonado found 7/10ths. This would suggest that some of the shortcoming in Alonso’s case was the driver.
That said, Massa found only a tenth from Q2 to Q3.
But Massa did a three lap run and set his fastest time in first lap, when he had more fuel on board than he would have had on a single lap run. So that cost him probably another two tenths, which would be consistent with the improvement of Raikkonen, Webber and Button.
Massa shed some light on the thinking internally on the Ferrari updates and how they audited their performance, “We have a new front wing which is definitely exactly what it is supposed to be on his [Alonso's] car, and he has a new rear wing which is a little bit less than half of what it is supposed to give. So it is not everything it is supposed to be.
“In my case it was clear that it (rear wing) lacked downforce in the final sector.
“So if we bring the pieces and they are on the car that is positive. But for sure when you see that it is supposed to give one thing and it is giving half, then it is still not 100 per cent great. But it is [at least] important to improve the performance.”
So in summary, the aerodynamic work carried out by Ferrari for Abu Dhabi was fairly comprehensive, but didn’t bring the hoped for gains. “Perhaps expectations were too high,” said Alonso.
Link:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/1...-in-abu-dhabi/
Full Member
I hope once for last time that's finally 100% true.@ joseluisf1
Gené confirma que Ferrari llevara 'muchas' piezas para Austin, confiemos en Ferrari y que funcionen
Full Member
I couldnt agree more. Here we are with our own track and various other tracks in Italy and we can...not...test. I mean how absurd is that?
What is the purpose of this rule? Who is it to benefit? The teams are going to spend what they want, so what is it saving? To not test, I think has been one of the things that
has hurt us the most the last few years.
Banned
That's so true. If there wasn't for that dumb limited testing rule then Fernando and Felipe would be racking up laps on Fiorano or Mugello as we speak. The lack of on-track testing has hurt us a lot, no question about it. We'd be unbeatable if we could just use our tracks and test our car properly.
Salut Gilles
unlimited testing has been long gone, I don't think it can be used as any excuse now, and there is no guarantee that testing would make us win either. Others have the money to run just as much testing as we would.
Forza Ferrari
Banned
Hmmm...that's true, but that would certainly give us a better chance to win, especially in the beginning of the season. With unlimited testing we'd definitely be a lot more competitive right from the first race of the season, without having to catch up with our rivals later on.
Full Member
Gary Anderson's thoughts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20210164The big mystery of this season has been how the Ferrari can be a second off the pace in qualifying and only a tenth of a second or two off it in the race. I think I've figured out what the problem is.
It is a rear wing and diffuser problem, but it's a little complicated to explain, so bear with me.
In qualifying, the DRS overtaking aid can be used all the time. A driver comes off a corner and opens the DRS as soon as possible, reducing the drag and the wing wake, which gives extra straight-line speed.
As the car goes faster, the rear gets closer to the ground and that 'stalls' the diffuser, which is the underfloor which curves upwards at the back of the car. 'Stalling' means the airflow is not attached to it any more, and that reduces the downforce it produces.
When the driver brakes for the next corner, the car changes attitude - the rear comes up.
I am 99.99% sure that at that time, on the Ferrari, the diffuser does not re-attach immediately.
Because of that, the airflow at the back of the car is different, so the rear wing does not re-attach either.
So on initial corner entry, 18 or 20 times a lap in qualifying or whatever, the rear of the car has less downforce and therefore is unstable for a given amount of time until the diffuser and rear wing re-attach.
This rear instability on corner entry is what the Ferrari drivers are complaining about.
To reduce rear instability, you run less front downforce, but that gives understeer - less front grip - when the diffuser re-attaches. As it happens, less front wing also means less overall downforce.
The braking duration for a lot of these corners will be about a second. If the diffuser is not re-attaching for 0.2-0.3secs, that is a problem.
In the race, though, the DRS can only be used in specified zones and when the driver is within a second of the car in front.
So during the race on the non-DRS straights the diffuser will still stall but the rear wing is still working, which means when the driver brakes the diffuser re-attaches more easily. So in the race the driver has rear stability other than when he is braking after using the DRS.
That means in the race the Ferrari is more consistent.
You'll probably find that the stall-point on the diffuser in the race is at a lower ride-height (a higher top speed) than in qualifying, when it will stall earlier because the DRS is open on every straight.
So my suggestion to Ferrari would be to have a slightly less aggressive DRS system. They have one of the biggest gains in top speed when the DRS is open compared to when it is closed. I would reduce that a bit but make sure the rear-wing airflow is a bit more robust.
With the resources Ferrari have, that is something they could do very quickly if they got on with it - certainly in time for the next race.
They are using four or five rear wing designs and chopping and changing between them, so they are going round and round the problem but not actually fixing it.
This lack of consistency may also explain why Alonso was not able to improve on his final run in qualifying last weekend.
He made a point in Abu Dhabi of saying the fact he did the same lap time on three different runs in qualifying meant he had got the most out of the car.
Normally, that would be wrong - a driver should improve on his final run because up until then it is all about 'banker' laps. He should save the 100% on-the-limit lap until the end. Also, in Abu Dhabi the ambient temperature was dropping all the time as night fell and that would give more engine power.
But perhaps the instability at the rear of the Ferrari limits its potential.
The driver can only increase his effort level if he has the confidence to do so. If he doesn't have confidence on the corner entry, then he's stuck. The driver can't go quicker because he is at the limit of what the car will respond to.
The contrast with the Red Bull is interesting - Vettel nearly always goes faster on his final qualifying run. But while that car moves around and needs a lot of driving, it does respond to extra effort from the driver without doing anything nasty.
That means it is predictable, gives the driver confidence and the driver can find a tenth of a second or two.
So it was very instructive to see that on a weekend when Vettel missed nearly all of final practice, he not only did not get pole, but he also was beaten by Webber. He didn't have the confidence in the car he normally does.
That's a problem Alonso is probably facing every weekend.
loves Sweden
Also, all the teams agreed on the testing ban. Ferrari probably did not expect it would hurt them that much as it does now (imho)
Full Member
Our always optimistic and well-informed friend joseluis tweets:
"in Austin: more DRS optimization in rear part of the car
- Ferrari is working on Super-DRS a la Lotus for 2013 car but its unknown if it will be used on 2012 car
- further updates in Austin will also improve tyre management both in qualy and in race; temperature management should be better
- in this stage of development its to expect better use of parts that are already on car than some new revolutionary ones...
- it seems Montezemolo is very upset and wants to know why updates dont work, all important people are in Maranello on urgent meetings...
Full Member
I think unlimited testing can only help us if we are having problem with simulation. Rather than heading to each race not knowing what our upgrade would do because our simulations are not telling us the right story, we can just test them all as much as we want, if its not working, tweak it and test again. It will put us on a level playing field with other teams who are otherwise better at simulations.
But Greig is right, in terms of cost unlimited testing is a thing of a past and will stay that way. Luca DM himself have talk about the need for cost cutting too, so I don't think Luca will be pushing for unlimited testing either. Ferrari needs to improve its simulation, whether its the wind tunnel or anything that is giving us problems. We need to adept like everyone else.
ps: Who knows, unlimited testing may have allowed Adrian Newey to unleash an even greater pain on everyone else too.
Full Member
and now to compound our problems even more,redbull and mclaren will have their young drivers test....(read testing parts with some real track time)
Banned
You certainly have a point there...I think unlimited testing can only help us if we are having problem with simulation. Rather than heading to each race not knowing what our upgrade would do because our simulations are not telling us the right story, we can just test them all as much as we want, if its not working, tweak it and test again. It will put us on a level playing field with other teams who are otherwise better at simulations.
But Greig is right, in terms of cost unlimited testing is a thing of a past and will stay that way. Luca DM himself have talk about the need for cost cutting too, so I don't think Luca will be pushing for unlimited testing either. Ferrari needs to improve its simulation, whether its the wind tunnel or anything that is giving us problems. We need to adept like everyone else.
ps: Who knows, unlimited testing may have allowed Adrian Newey to unleash an even greater pain on everyone else too.
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