Ferrari F2012 Development News Thread

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Reading the article via google translate, it basically says the Ferrari tunnel has issues with a distorted flow field, and with the scale/balance system used to measure the forces on the car. It also implies it would be costly and time consuming to fix the issues, and that Ferrari is again doing comparison tests with the Toyota tunnel.

It says that, but it also says when Ferrari first learned of the problem with the tunnel we had the option to completely change the system and resolve the problem or try and fix what we thought the problem was. The second option was chosen because it was quicker to fix and less expensive. Now we're stuck with more or less the same problems. The team should have taken the time to fix it and fix it right and we wouldn't be in this predicament right now.

Either way, we can still manage the situation. We're currently still using our own tunnel in Maranello as well as using the Toyota tunnel. So all is not lost. Agathangelou was brought in to make sure the data between both tunnels & CFD correlates and is streamlined so that the design, test & manufacture process can commence rapidly. He's a well respected Aerodynamicist and is a good man for the job. Remember he's not here to take Tombazis's place, only to help. Let's see how they do. :)

Ferrari also needs to decide when they're going to take the time to properly fix the wind tunnel.

[Kyss4k]

Oh God... When will the wind tunnel issues come to an end?

[Ophidian786]

These wind tunnel issues really shouldn't be happening now. The other teams are doing just fine, and i presume perhaps even bettering their systems, yet us? we are having to go back to Toyotas wind tunnel. When did toyota leave f1?

I don't need to see ferrari win to be happy, just having the potential to be on the podium.

[mark p]

We could buy the Toyota windtunnel.

[Hornet]

We could buy the Toyota windtunnel.

I wanted to post this too when I saw that news.

We should just buy Toyota's wind tunnel and be done with it.

[scudvirgin10]

toyota use that tunnel right because of le man and the disadvantage to it is if toyota could comeback and could use the ferrari date to there gain in the future ferrari needs a aid like having a sponsor that could help the acer needs to replace if they dont provide help with ferrari an electronics company like apple or sony etc ferrari need to hire someone in that tunnel problem maybe the reason because the tunnel is too old like others

[croALOfanclub]

No new exhaust in Mugello,but in Spain!

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3...012exhaust.jpg

[Gerhard Berger]

won't believe it until it comes from Ferrari.

[FerrariF60]

won't believe it until it comes from Ferrari.

exactly my thoughts, these are just rumors; unless Ferrari themselves make that statement, i won't believe it one bit
besides, they HAVE to test the new exhaust it at mugello in case they have to make some tweeks to it. unless Ferrari know as a FACT that the new exhaust will work 100%, but somehow i dont' think that without any tests done on it

[Gerhard Berger]

exactly my thoughts, these are just rumors; unless Ferrari themselves make that statement, i won't believe it one bit
besides, they HAVE to test the new exhaust it at mugello in case they have to make some tweeks to it. unless Ferrari know as a FACT that the new exhaust will work 100%, but somehow i dont' think that without any tests done on it

All we had was Domenicalli saying that some upgrades won't be seen in Mugello, and will only be seen at Barcelona. From this, it seems some people have come to the conclusion that we won't test the exhausts in Mugello. Like you said, it's all rumours and speculation from the media.

I've read that the simulating exhaust plumes in the CFD and windtunnel is quite difficult. Add that, to the fact that we our team have said that the exhausts were one of the very first problems we discovered in pre season testing, i think it is only logical that the a new modified exhaust should be one of the first things we test in Mugello.

[croALOfanclub]

it would make no sense not to test new exhaust in Mugello and leave it for FP1 in BCN! It's to much work for FP!!!

[Tony]

Regarding buying Toyota's wind tunnel, I could be mistaken, but haven't they indicated it wasn't for sale and they simply referred leasing out services to teams?

[Hornet]

Yeah, its doubtful Toyota wants to sell it. Just getting a little tired of hearing our never ending wind tunnel woes

Maybe we should buy the patent from Toyota and build an exact copy or something.

[FrankAlfa]

For crying out loud! The Wind Tunnel is not the problem! The problem is the hardware / software tool and the "Users" that are not being developed and data not being properly understood! Ferrari have to GO TO THE AEROSPACE INDUSTRY AND GET SOME QUALITY PEOPLE! Stop all the debate about this Wind Tunnel or that one. It is about people and the tools that need to be upgraded! In the big picture Ferrari have to get their house in order and define the work to be done. Pat Fry is only manager and the real work is with the Chief Designer and the firm, correct data gathered to allow them to create something that works!

Ciao.

Ferrari!!!!

[Crucial_Xtreme]

For crying out loud! The Wind Tunnel is not the problem! The problem is the hardware / software tool and the "Users" that are not being developed and data not being properly understood! Ferrari have to GO TO THE AEROSPACE INDUSTRY AND GET SOME QUALITY PEOPLE! Stop all the debate about this Wind Tunnel or that one. It is about people and the tools that need to be upgraded! In the big picture Ferrari have to get their house in order and define the work to be done. Pat Fry is only manager and the real work is with the Chief Designer and the firm, correct data gathered to allow them to create something that works!

Ciao.

Ferrari!!!!

Frank you're half right & half wrong. The wind tunnel still has issues. Red Bull & McLaren aren't using the Toyota tunnel. Why? Because they have no issues with their own. We have to resort to using Toyota's tunnel for multiple reasons, the main one being we can't trust our own results. This is part of the reason why Agathangelou was hired, to make sure the data correlates & is streamlined as much as possible. You're right there's issues with the HW & SW too. We're also behind the leaders(McLaren/Red Bull) in CFD. Our facilities need upgrading and the employees that work with it need more experience with newer better software. This will come in time as Fry gets things upgraded and the workers gain more experience. Our driver simulator still needs work. It's better than most, but still doesn't reach the level of our strongest competitors.

Pat Fry is in the process of fixing multiple things, the most important of which he mentioned, the teams methodologies. It's clear the way some of the better teams on the grid work in the area of Aerodynamics is better & more efficient than Ferrari. But I think he'll get it done and get everything where it should be. It will take time. As he mentioned, some of the things he's putting in place now won't see results for 6 months to a year so it's clear to me at least, that what needs to be done is getting done. It's just not an overnight thing. F1 is dynamic and things are always changing and evolving. Ferrari has been slow to keep up. Once we do get caught up, watch out. We'll be back at the top.

[stefa]

Oh God... When will the wind tunnel issues come to an end?

Didn't they said last year that they fixed problem with wind tunnel? Or it was just PR Bul?!

[giodap]

spot on!

[Kiwi Nick]

Yeh, they re-calibrated that bad boy about every other week. Now it seems that Agathangelou is the only man on earth that can speak Ferrari-Wind-Tunnelese. One more excuse.

[AvantiAlonsoWDC]

Yeh, they re-calibrated that bad boy about every other week. Now it seems that Agathangelou is the only man on earth that can speak Ferrari-Wind-Tunnelese. One more excuse.

Not an excuse but another rumour from people trying to getting their tweet of fame out of Ferrari's bad start (example: Felipe Massa sacked (Feb 2012)) ...
We're not doing very well, but saying everyday that our wind tunnel isn't working properly after several fixes sounds truly disrespectful to our aero design team. It sounds as if we were saying that they commit the same mistakes over and over and don't learn, that's not it. We "have" Toyota's wind tunnel to check data so I wouldn't consider lack of correlation between wind tunnel and track data the main cause of our current situation.

Just my opinion, I don't intend to offend anyone.

Forza Ferrari

[Jose Lorca]

I don't believe the story about the wind tunnel. The team said it was fixed last year, and Pat Fry said in China that the updates introduced there were working.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

. We "have" Toyota's wind tunnel to check data so I wouldn't consider lack of correlation between wind tunnel and track data the main cause of our current situation.


Forza Ferrari

Unfortunately this is exactly what happened mate. Otherwise the first day of good data from Jerez would have roughly correlated with on track results. It didn't. There are many factors that attribute to this failure so we can't blame it all on the wind tunnel, but blatantly obvious there's a lack of correlation. Again, this is why we're using the Cologne tunnel as well as our own. If ours is running as it's supposed to there's no need to waste money on an extra model, travel expenses, etc etc.
Fry is an honest guy and he's stated unequivocally that the majority of our problems lie in the aerodynamic department. I think it's obvious it's quite the contrary to your post above, specifically this part: " It sounds as if we were saying that they commit the same mistakes over and over and don't learn." While this may not be the full truth, it's obvious the team are making some of the same mistakes over and over again and why there is a need to completely change the methodologies and the way the team works. <-- That's basically a quote from Pat Fry.

I'm not here to harp on the wind tunnel or rag the team just to do it, but let's call a spade a spade and not act like we don't have certain problems when clearly we do. I think it's obvious Fry is changing the way the team works and we will get to a point eventually when Aerodynamics isn't our main problem. But currently it is.

It should also be said that the use of some advanced materials & their performance on track is partly to blame for some of the problems we've had thus far this season. But it's not the only reason.

[AvantiAlonsoWDC]

@Crucial_Xtreme: First, thanks for your response. I find it interesting making clearer my ideas about some stuff I'd recently read.

Regarding wind tunnel and data correlation, what I meant (probably didn't explained myself good enough, sorry) is that data correlation isn't something binary, and as updates for Chinese GP (as Jose Lorca has previously mentioned in this thread) have worked so the problem is not as huge as it was in the past ('11 season) but still there.
I think our poor performance is due to decisions we had to make such as a very agressive approach to designing the car and not enough testing time due to regulations.
This doesn't mean that our aero design office doesn't need to go through a series of changes to improve their results.

About Fry's work methodology changes will go deeper than aero department and wind tunnel usage, won't they? If you know something else, could you share more info about that? I'm really intrigued about what they mean by working methodology. Thanks.

Forza Ferrari

[Crucial_Xtreme]

@Crucial_Xtreme: First, thanks for your response. I find it interesting making clearer my ideas about some stuff I'd recently read.

Regarding wind tunnel and data correlation, what I meant (probably didn't explained myself good enough, sorry) is that data correlation isn't something binary, and as updates for Chinese GP (as Jose Lorca has previously mentioned in this thread) have worked so the problem is not as huge as it was in the past ('11 season) but still there.
I think our poor performance is due to decisions we had to make such as a very agressive approach to designing the car and not enough testing time due to regulations.
This doesn't mean that our aero design office doesn't need to go through a series of changes to improve their results.

About Fry's work methodology changes will go deeper than aero department and wind tunnel usage, won't they? If you know something else, could you share more info about that? I'm really intrigued about what they mean by working methodology. Thanks.

Forza Ferrari

Yeah we've introduced a few updates at each GP, and all have produced some kind of performance increase. I would say this is due in part to us using the Toyota tunnel whereas before the season we were only using ours in Maranello. Either way, now we're using both and considering we've improved the car each GP with small updates, gives me confidence we can make a larger step at Mugello/Spain.

As for changing their methodology, that's a hard one. I think it's safe to say Ferrari are behind Red bull & McLaren for instance in the area of Aerodynamics & simulation(wind tunnel, CFD, driver simulator). For years we always had the track out back to develop the car where other teams had to rely more in the tunnel, CFD & driver sim. So naturally they're more experienced at developing the car through these methods whereas we've taken a more "old school" sort of approach. Red Bull has never shied away from trying new technology the get a leg up on the competition where other teams have been hesitant to do so. You can read about that specifically Red Bull and Immersed Boundary Methods. There's so many things and so many different factors at play here. I think Fry's words give a good indication of what needs to be changed:


“The biggest performance differentiator is aerodynamics. We’ve got some issues there that we’re trying to resolve. The areas you need to be working on is everything from the way you run the wind tunnel, the accuracy of your wind tunnel, the simulation that you use to decide what components to take forward, so we’re not leaving any stone unturned.

“We’re actually trying to review and revise our methodologies through the whole process and that carries on into the design office for trying to get weight out of various parts, make other bits more durable, so there’s work going on absolutely everywhere within the company, on the basic fundamental methodology as well as just trying to upgrade the car.”

[FrankAlfa]

@ Crucial_Xtreme.

EXCELLENT POST!, Crucial_Etreme! From an Engineering point of view, you have stated and listed some of the most critical, profound and important Engineering aspects of Formula One I have ever read on this site in any post!!!! The"Tools" that a team like Red Bull are using to find the next level of performance, year in and year out are the whole game!

You can have all very skilled Engineers you want working on something, but if the "Tools" they are using are not suitable or not the best, the quality of their work will suffer and certainly not be the best! I think what we are seeing is Arian Newey understanding this by obtaining and utilizing the MOST CUTTING EDGE "TOOLS" at anyone's disposal to acheive the greatest possible results! No, Newey is not the Engineer to Design and Build every concept, part or piece at Red Bull. It is his Team of Engineers using the most advanced tools to achieve their lofty results! Engineering is purely a problem solving excerise! Those that can find the solution fastest win the prize! Those that are late in finding solutions fall behind! That's it in a nutshell!

Again, Great Post, Crucial_Xtreme!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[scuderiafan]

Too much BS in reports this season.

Its reported that Ferrari will bring revised sidepods, front wing/nose and exhausts at Mugello. No new front suspension and no new chassis

Source

I don't know who is right, but this seems very plausible.

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

I am happy to hear that the sidepods will be changed. Whether that also means a change in radiator position i don.t know...

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Too much BS in reports this season.


Source

I don't know who is right, but this seems very plausible.

Dimi is a very reliable source mate. He is the guy who knows before anyone else(publications, etc) when drivers are getting signed at other teams, who's moving where, etc. He breaks driver news all the time. So if he's saying this, which he is, chances are it's spot on. :))

link--> https://twitter.com/#!/f1enigma/stat...42181064978432

[Kiwi Nick]

Frank, I agree with your notion that engineers need the best tools to achieve the best results. But every project engineer I have ever worked with thought he needed the best tools. I think that the root of the current problem lies more in methodology than the quality of Ferrari's tools. Certainly, FIAT and the Scuderia can afford whatever hardware and software they require. Ferrari had the ultimate tool until it was banned, Ferrari was able to rely on the test track, literally at its back door. It didn't matter how well calibrated the wind tunnel was or how proficient the engineers were with modeling software, ever change could be checked on the test track before it before it went to the race track. That methodology of reliance on the test track has effectively made Ferrari less able to understand how its designs will work on race day. That is the methodology that Fry must change or they will continue to look like they are chasing their own tails.

[FrankAlfa]

Since the ban on unlimited Track Testing, other teams have found creative, very effective ways to substitute for this regulation change. It seems Ferrari has been slow to move in unison with the other teams to cratively find an adequate Engineering substitute to replace Track Testing! Pat Fry is getting these much needed Engineering Substitutes on line and hire the experienced peronnel to operate those vital Engineering Tools. In my eyes, this is the only solution in the advant of very limited on track testing. Regardless the future of on- track testing, these NEW Engineering tools and methods are a very big step in designing a Formula One race car and seems to be a vital role in future of design. I think this is what Newey is responsible for in the industry of design.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[sagi58]

@ Crucial_Xtreme.

EXCELLENT POST!, Crucial_Etreme! From an Engineering point of view, you have stated and listed some of the most critical, profound and important Engineering aspects of Formula One I have ever read on this site in any post!!!!

Just wanted to add my own thanks to Crucial_Xtreme for using "everyday" English to explain the problems we're having!!

Much appreciated!!