New engines set to be scrapped

[Rob]

(title maybe bit misleadng, as not sure they are set to be scrapped.)

Christian Sylt, Hindustan Times
September 29, 2012

First Published: 01:17 IST(29/9/2012)
Last Updated: 01:22 IST(29/9/2012)


Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone has revealed that controversial environmentally-friendly new engines which are due to be introduced to the sport in 2014 are likely to be scrapped. He says the move will save the teams as much as 30% of their projected budgets, which will help them stay in business during the economic downturn.

The new engine regulations are understood to be at the heart of the decision by British driver Lewis Hamilton to move next year from McLaren to Mercedes. The change in engine regulations was expected to give Mercedes an opportunity to improve performance as it would be a fresh start for the teams.

The new engine regulations were developed by F1's governing body (FIA) and involve replacing the current 2.4-litre V8s with more environmentally- friendly 1.6-litre turbo-charged V6 engines. The plan is strongly opposed by Ecclestone.

Jarring Note
"I listened to the noise of the engines in (Ferrari's headquarters at) Maranello the other day, the new engine and the old engine, and even (Ferrari chairman) Luca di Montezemolo said it sounded terrible and didn't like it," says Ecclestone. He feels FIA president, Jean Todt, "will get rid of it. I think Luca is also saying we should suspend it for two or three years. I think it is sensible to get rid of it and stick with what we have got. It is much cheaper than the new one. It probably could be 30% of the price."

Circuits Protest
The Formula One Promoters Association (FOPA), which represents all of the circuits, last year threatened to drop F1 over fears that the new engines could make the cars sound so different it would drive spectators away.

The circuits dropped their threat after the FIA agreed to raise the power of the engines from its original proposal of 1.6 litre, 4-cylinder engines. "I blame the FIA for this stupid engine formula," says Ecclestone. "It really wasn't his (Todt's) fault, (former FIA president Max) Mosley started the engine and then he got carried away... Todt really hasn't interfered with us. He has been travelling the world and seeing all the different federations but he hasn't bothered us."

Ecclestone also reveals that Todt has asked him and the teams for an increase in the fees paid to the FIA so that it can use the money to move into a more prestigious headquarters and give it a stature comparable to FIFA and the IOC.

The FIA gets fees from several sources in F1. The biggest is an annual amount of €7.7m from the F1 Group which is run by Ecclestone and manages the rights to the sport. The FIA is also believed to get an additional sum of around €250,000 per race if there are more than 16 such as this year when there are 20.

In addition, the FIA gets fees from the teams and it wants to raise them. This would see the entry fee for the teams increasing from €309,000 to €500,000 plus €7,000 per constructors' championship point. Had the new rate been implemented this year, world champions Red Bull Racing would have paid €4.859m rather than €309,000 to enter the 2012 season.

The FIA's annual budget comes to around $60m and Ecclestone says, "They are getting about $35m from Formula 1...I think they would be happy if they could get $50m."

Despite being a notorious cost-cutter, Ecclestone sympathises with Todt. "I think it is nice if we have a federation that is seen to be strong and impressive. They can't demand money from us because they have got no right. It is a case of whether we want to make a contribution to help them build the FIA. If they really need the money, we probably will help."

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Motor-...e1-937322.aspx

[mirafiori]

WOW.

[Rishu]

Oh dear, Lewis' head is gonna explode

[M.K]

If this is true than one certain Lewis won't be happy bunny

[Rob]

If it is true, he will not be. But, it is not up to Bernie. FIA set the rules.

[Rishu]

Just had a word with my friend working in the “Hindustan Times” & he tells me that this reporter Christian Sylt is not a very credible source & basically a Bernie Ecclestone mouthpiece, so might be taking this info with a pinch of salt

[Hornet]

Good. Hopefully Luca DM and Bernie continues to push for the V6 to be scrapped.

Smart move by Luca to invite Bernie to the factory for a demonstration. They are the one who can do something about it at this point. It would be too late if they waited until the public hears it and hates it.

[Ken]

Terrific Timing .

We have been through weeks of speculation about Hamilton and Mercedes, the day after he signs this bomb drops out of the sky

But on a more serious note I hope that this article bears some truth, and the the new engine regs do get scrapped.

"Come on Feel the Noise"

[WRX202]

It makes sense, the teams are going to have to invest heavily on new technology if they do move to the turbo 1.6 engines. It's counter productive when the FIA boasts about cost cutting. Just leave these engines as they are and work on other areas imo. As for the FIA dictating the rules remember that Bernie runs the show, the FIA is merely a puppet and it exists only coz Bernie and the Teams fund it.

[Ste]

Hope this happens!

[Rob]

The new engine regs would be good for us, as it going away from more aero dominated cars, somewhere we have been lacking. So this would be good for us, and Merc. As we both the only engine manufactures in F1.

[mirafiori]

The new engine regs would be good for us, as it going away from more aero dominated cars, somewhere we have been lacking. So this would be good for us, and Merc. As we both the only engine manufactures in F1.

Yes i agree, But what i don't understand it seems LDM is also against the new engines in 2014. Any way if the new engines are to be scrapped who will pay Ferrari and Merc for the research and development up to now?

[Hornet]

I think Ferrari strength shows when we can freely bring a new engine anytime we want, that is back then when we are free to develop and push the engine.

If development is still restricted, then unfortunately I don't think we can really shine in the engine department because we won't be able to flex our muscle.

Yes i agree, But what i don't understand it seems LDM is also against the new engines in 2014. Any way if the new engines are to be scrapped who will pay Ferrari and Merc for the research and development up to now?

I think one of the reason is V6 engine won't be that much of a use for Ferrari business.

Ferrari's car mostly use V8 and V12 engines

California - V8
FF - V12
Berlinetta - V12
599 GTB - V12
458 Italia - V8

[Ken]

I think Ferrari strength shows when we can freely bring a new engine anytime we want, that is back then when we are free to develop and push the engine.

If development is still restricted, then unfortunately I don't think we can really shine in the engine department because we won't be able to flex our muscle.

I agree with you. With the current reg's soon all the engines will be evenly matched and it wont matter which format the FIA introduce any advantage in early development of a new format would soon be lost.

[Rob]

Yes i agree, But what i don't understand it seems LDM is also against the new engines in 2014. Any way if the new engines are to be scrapped who will pay Ferrari and Merc for the research and development up to now?

With the sound of the cars, just get used to it. Like what have had done over the years from V12s. As much as Mr.E doesnt like the sound, FIA are not going to say "ok, Bernie, we will scrap the idea as you do not like it"

As for compensation for developing the engines so far if FIA side with Bernie, Bernie should pay for it.

[Sha1]

Yes i agree, But what i don't understand it seems LDM is also against the new engines in 2014. Any way if the new engines are to be scrapped who will pay Ferrari and Merc for the research and development up to now?

That's what I'd like to know. How do the teams put up with this incompetency from the FIA/FOM?

And what exactly is the reason behind all these rule changes again? It sure isn't cost saving. Are the people running the sport really that stupid or is there something else going on, or both?

[Hornet]

That's what I'd like to know. How do the teams put up with this incompetency from the FIA/FOM?

And what exactly is the reason behind all these rule changes again? It sure isn't cost saving. Are the people running the sport really that stupid or is there something else going on, or both?

Green. The FIA is more crazy than a tree hugger over this whole green thing. In 2014, cars have to run on electric power in the pits (so teams need to develop a new system call ERS). And its not the first time.

The initial plan was a freaking 4 cylinder engine for 2013. Teams did admit that they already worked on it but it was rightfully scrapped after lots of concern everywhere including track operators against it. Eventually they reached a compromised which is a turbo charged V6.

Money is not the concern here. Green is. When you look at the cost of the technology required to develop the ERS and the new V6 engine, there's nothing cost effective about it. The development cost and the cost of an F1 car will only get more expensive with all the new parts.

[hudson77]

Lovin the Avatar Rob,

[Ken]

Lovin the Avatar Rob,

Good one.

Note to self:- " must get over my technophobia and get me one too "

[Nova]

I hope this happen too, and who cares what happens to Lewis..he no drive a Red.
Stick with the V8 but give us about 100 more bhp...

[Ken]

I remember once seeing an article which gave the Spec for the new engine, the size/ capacity, max revs, limit on turbo charging and max power out put

Anyone out there got a copy of them that they could post here ??

[Rob]

Combustion engine specifications:
1600cc, V6
15000 rpm max
Direct fuel injection up to 500bar
Single turbocharger
Controlled fuel flow

Energy recovery and storage systems specifications:
Kinetic, 120kW on the rear wheels
Exhaust energy recovery linked to the turbocharger

[Ken]

Thanks Rob

That was quick the best I found after some poking around was http://www.formula1.com/news/intervi...1/7/12241.html

If memory serves me right the new engine will be about 100cc bigger but Revs down a bit from the ones used in the late 80's

[theforce]

If Lewis can make up his mind about which team he'll be driving for in 2013, how hard can it be for the FIA to decide on the engines? Maybe Ferrari and Merc can use these engine for their road cars so it won't be going to waste, assuming the article is true?

[Liscia]

I'd be happier too if the V8 stays but whether LH is at M-B or McLaren he'll be running a M-B powerplant (V8,V6 or whatever)
so can't understand the big difference other than the uncertainties ALL teams will then face if/when a new engine reg takes effect.
I'd be more worried about McLaren's proven development ability over M-B/Brawn who have been consistent mid-fielders since
JB's fluke 2009 championship, which was due mainly to their double diffuser invention and head start.

[Brakefade]

I say we go in the other direction and bring back the V10s.

[FrankAlfa]

I say go even further and bring back any configuration : 8, 10 or 12!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Sha1]

Green. The FIA is more crazy than a tree hugger over this whole green thing. In 2014, cars have to run on electric power in the pits (so teams need to develop a new system call ERS). And its not the first time.

The initial plan was a freaking 4 cylinder engine for 2013. Teams did admit that they already worked on it but it was rightfully scrapped after lots of concern everywhere including track operators against it. Eventually they reached a compromised which is a turbo charged V6.

Money is not the concern here. Green is. When you look at the cost of the technology required to develop the ERS and the new V6 engine, there's nothing cost effective about it. The development cost and the cost of an F1 car will only get more expensive with all the new parts.

Oh right, the whole "green" thing. Well I'm all for keeping the V8's, but something has got to change because continuing on with this engine freeze would be ridiculous.

[Kiwi Nick]

I say go even further and bring back any configuration : 8, 10 or 12!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

Absolutely, just two restrictions; 1) XXXXX liters normally aspirated, 2) ZZZZZ liters boosted, either turbocharger or supercharged with a cap on the amount of boost. Let the geniuses at the FIA figure out what the right displacement is for each type of engine and then get out of the way.

If you really must be green, limit the amount of fuel that a car can use in the race. But allow them to use diesel as well as gasoline and no limit on energy recovery systems, but no pre-charged batteries.

I guess the big problem could be that Sir Bernard might not like the way they sound, which would kill any change from today's sweet sounding lumps. Really his objections when he is against something are bizarre if not just plain silly.

[Nova]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines