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Thread: Red Bull’s traction secret revealed?

  1. #1
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    Red Bull’s traction secret revealed?

    Red Bull’s secret weapon revealed? find out in the new issue of Racecar Engineering
    Red Bull RB9
    In the wake of the Singapore Grand Prix, utterly dominated by the Red Bull RB9 of Sebastian Vettel, questions have been raised about whether the car is using traction control. This is highly unlikely and it is probable that those suggesting that the RB9 runs TC lack understanding of how such systems work, especially considering that all cars run identical TAG 320 ECU’s.

    However the latest issue of Racecar Engineering raises an alternative, legal and highly innovative solution for the RB9′s mid corner performance, which could also explain many of Red Bull’s reliability issues.
    It is theoretically easy to modulate the output torque and charging input torque to an electric motor/generator using capacitors, batteries, inductors and a feedback signal. Torque changes are instant and control is easy and legal.

    If torque were to be modulated in response to the normal force of the tires against the track (in response to shock pressure for example) significant unused traction potential could be recovered during high pressure phases (upside of bumps) and initiation of full wheel spin during low pressure phases (downside of bumps) could be delayed. Yielding better turn exit acceleration, higher cornering speeds and stability. Especially on bumpy tracks like Singapore.

    In the new issue of Raccear Engineering magazine, this concept is fully explored, and Adrian Newey also comments on the issue. – Read the full story along with a full discussion of the RB9′s design below.
    Adrian Newey on the RB9 and its secret weapon.

    This idea largely backs up the comments made by one well known F1 figure which have been widely reported online. At Singapore former team boss Gian Carlo Minardi was sat trackside and wrote on his official website the following:

    DOUBT 1: from my suite, I chose some mainstays as a reference point in order to monitor and compare the drivers’ way of driving. My mainstays were the kerbstones located on the corner which leads to Republic Boulevard.
    Their function is to avoid passing on the kerb. I was impressed by Vettel’s neat way of driving on that stretch of the track. He was able to drive all that stretch without making any corrections, unlike all his rivals (also his teammate).
    His laptime was also remarkable in T3, which is the track’s sector with the highest concentration of corners.

    DOUBT 2: on the same stretch, Sebastian was able to speed up 50 m before any other driver, Webber included. Whilst all the other drivers speeded up on the same stretch, Vettel was able to speed up before them. The thing that surprised me the most was the RB1 engine’s output sound. Besides speeding up 50 m before any other driver, the Renault engine of the German’s car grinded like no other French engines on track, neither like Mark’s. That sound was similar to the sound made by the engine when the traction control system got into action in the past seasons.
    Furthermore, that sound was only heard when Vettel chalked up his excellent performances. For example, after the safety car went off, he took a great re-start and chalked up many excellent laps, gaining a 32 sec. gap over Alonso, then he leveled off, taking precautions in the case he would have had to pit one more time.
    In those moments the Renault engine was more powerful than any other engines (Renault and other brands). There are some aspects (1- Vettel’s very neat way of driving; 2-Vettel’s speedup 50 m before the other drivers; 3- the abnormal sound of the RB1’s Renault engine; 4- Vetter’s more than 2 sec. advantage over the rivals ) that make me think and I would like to have some answers. All those doubts are even more serious if we consider that Webber wasn’t able to do that, since he’s a common human being….I don’t want to blame anyone , I just would like to get into the deep of the matter.

    You can read the full blog on Minardi’s website: Minardi on Newey’s Magic Hat




    So no TC but an instant pullforce-braking system that works via KERS and hydrolics shizzle which is a legal way to copy TC cause there are no rules made up for that.

    No wonder bieber is winning now with cheats that aren't official cheats. If you gave Fernando this he would kick biebers ---!
    Hero's come and go, but legends never die!

  2. #2
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    So if they have found a legal way to improve the car we should just call them cheats? When MS was dominating with cars way ahead of the rest did that make us cheats too?

    Or maybe we can wonder why Ferrari never found this first?
    Forza Ferrari

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    So RBR is basically the Tony Stark of F1. Fantastic.


    Disappointed Since 2010

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    Well if they have good on them. Lets appluad it. As much as i would love to them get caught out "cheating", is not going to happen. They clever bunch, as all teams are. Some as we have seen better than others at finding small simple solutions. We know how hard it is to take 4 titles in a row, and keep and top of this sport for few years. We shouldnt be calling them cheats, (as did we back in 1999-2004) so what, we/they doing better job. Vettel, isnt "great" in my eyes but he getting the best out of the package he has.

    Singapore, he was out front, clean air and could push when he wanted without threat from behind or having to drive defensive, that would of hurt his tyre wear. All Renualt engined cars make that sound, have done all year, and past couple years.

    Lets face it, they done good job, what ever they have done its working.
    CAVALLINO RAMPANTE PER SEMPRE

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    Lets not lose the point of the Rules here. No Traction Control is permitted in the Rules! Not through the CPU, Not Through the KERS, Not Mechanically, Not Electronicly, Not anywhere is Traction Control Allowed! This is in both the Letter of the Rules and what is the Intent of the Rules! Case Closed. So glad "Racecar Engineering" have made this public! I feel vindicated that my opinions have been shown to have validity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    Lets not lose the point of the Rules here. No Traction Control is permitted in the Rules! Not through the CPU, Not Through the KERS, Not Mechanically, Not Electronicly, Not anywhere is Traction Control Allowed! This is in both the Letter of the Rules and what is the Intent of the Rules! Case Closed. So glad "Racecar Engineering" have made this public! I feel vindicated that my opinions have been shown to have validity.
    The article says it's not traction control nevermind that the article is all hearsay also.
    Forza Ferrari

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    LOL. It is a "Form" of Traction control. It this in keeping with the "Rules" or the "Intent" of the rules??? It is manipulation of the rules. Do we all remember the "Mass Dampener" and that result? The FIA can "choose" to react to this or not and whether they see it as contrary to the "Intent of the Rules" or they could just do nothing is up to them. This is an "Interesting" development.

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    Yea ok then, as long as they aren't cheating. And if they really have found this legal loophole to make their cars faster then there's really nothing to complain about. All I can say is that I wish Ferrari would use something like that. Hopefully we will outsmart them next season.
    KEEP CALM AND LOVE FERRARI


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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    So if they have found a legal way to improve the car we should just call them cheats? When MS was dominating with cars way ahead of the rest did that make us cheats too?

    Or maybe we can wonder why Ferrari never found this first?
    Hey Greig, in all fairness to the detractors back in the MS days, they did call us cheats :)

    But yeah, kudos to RB's tech team for getting ahead of the other teams. They aren't the only ones with the ways and means to figure this out, so, it's a Fail on the other teams.

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    Article by Senor Minardi from Pitpass.

    Almost a week after the Singapore Grand Prix, former team owner Gian Carlo Minardi has admitted to being mystified by certain aspects of Sebastian Vettel's dominance during the race.

    "Waiting for the Korean GP, I would like to bring back all the wonderful memories linked to my experience at the Marina Bay Street Circuit and make some remarks about the Singapore GP, which I'd like to share and try to find some answers," writes the Italian.

    "I was enthralled by Singapore," he continues. "It was a brand new experience, which was completely different from any other experience I was used to.

    "I had the chance to monitor all drivers' on-track deeds from a suite located at the end of the pit straight (which leads to the first chicane). The monitor I used to watch the race displayed also all drivers' lap times. Since I left Singapore however, I've been keeping in my mind the 2.5 sec advantage of Vettel over his teammate Webber and the other drivers.

    "It's not my intention to devalue Sebastian Vettel, who always manages his Red Bull the best way and I don't want even to jab at anyone, I just want to tell what I personally saw and heard during that three-day-event.

    "According to my experience, I think that a 2.5 sec advantage each lap is really too much. It's like a three-generation development gap, it's a huge gap. Furthermore, the time gap between Vettel and Grosjean in FP3 and the Red Bull driver and Rosberg in qualifying was only few tenths. The German driver could have played cat and mouse on Saturday, anyway, something is still not clear for me.

    "From my suite, I chose some mainstays as a reference point in order to monitor and compare the drivers' way of driving. My mainstays were the kerbstones located on the corner which leads to Republic Boulevard. Their function is to avoid passing on the kerb. I was impressed by Vettel's neat way of driving on that stretch of the track. He was able to drive all that stretch without making any corrections, unlike all his rivals (also his teammate). His lap time was also remarkable in T3, which is the track's sector with the highest concentration of corners.

    "On the same stretch, Sebastian was able to speed up 50 m before any other driver, Webber included. Whilst all the other drivers speeded up on the same stretch, Vettel was able to speed up before them. The thing that surprised me the most was the engine's output sound. Besides speeding up 50 m before any other driver, the Renault engine of the German's car grinded like no other French engines on track, neither like Mark's. That sound was similar to the sound made by the engine when the traction control system got into action in the past seasons.

    "Furthermore, that sound was only heard when Vettel chalked up his excellent performances. For example, after the safety car went off, he took a great re-start and chalked up many excellent laps, gaining a 32 sec. gap over Alonso, then he leveled off, taking precautions in the case he would have had to pit one more time. In those moments the Renault engine was more powerful than any other engines (Renault and other brands).

    "There are some aspects, Vettel's very neat way of driving, Vettel's speedup 50 m before the other drivers, the abnormal sound of the Renault engine and Vetter's more than 2 sec. advantage over his rivals that make me think and I would like to have some answers.

    "All those doubts are even more serious if we consider that Webber wasn't able to do that, since he's a common human being… I don't want to blame anyone , I just would like to get into the deep of the matter."

  11. #11
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    Webber is a common Human Being...lol! So that makes Vettel a super human...someone like the avengers?lol!
    Is it possible that Vettel and Webber have two different cars based on this observation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Or maybe we can wonder why Ferrari never found this first?

    raised the same question in another thread ...
    And I really start to doubt that it is really only "the wind tunnel" ... as I doubt that the RB wind tunnel delivers smart ideas to make the car fast and have a holistic approach to make the car faster (Aero, engine, suspension, KERS etc. etc. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
    Lets face it, they done good job, what ever they have done its working.
    Truth is sometimes awful and painful ... but it is the truth we have to face ...
    "If I was driving for Red Bull [from 2008] probably I would have more championships, but because they were dominating between 2010 and 2014 probably I would never have driven for Ferrari. I am very happy and very proud to drive for Ferrari, all my time there.

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    one thing makes me wonder however - why it works only on one car?
    not gonna change my profile picture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    So if they have found a legal way to improve the car we should just call them cheats? When MS was dominating with cars way ahead of the rest did that make us cheats too?

    Or maybe we can wonder why Ferrari never found this first?
    I agree with you Greig. Why call them cheaters? They find intelligent, legal way to make car better. It is Ferrari's and other teams to do the same. Yes, there are rules which says what is allowed and what is not. But teams should work hard and be very clever to make something to help them make better car. And RB is doing it really great!
    I am not mad at them. No not at all! They have ideas and their ideas work on track. I am mad on Ferrari, because either they don't have ideas or they don't know how to transfer those ideas on car!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katu View Post
    one thing makes me wonder however - why it works only on one car?
    because they know the second car won't see finish line ;)
    so it would have been a waste of resources
    "If I was driving for Red Bull [from 2008] probably I would have more championships, but because they were dominating between 2010 and 2014 probably I would never have driven for Ferrari. I am very happy and very proud to drive for Ferrari, all my time there.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senna4Ever View Post
    because they know the second car won't see finish line ;)
    so it would have been a waste of resources
    ...and they (RB) is fully concentrate around SV, as he is triple WDC and will soon win his fourth title. Beside that MW is leaving the team so there is no need for him to know some technical secrets

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    Reading today that Hamilton said he could push throtle like Vettel did in Singapore was in 2007 when he drove for mclaren and they had TC !

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    Traction Control of ANY SORT is BANNED!!!!!!!!!!

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    Red Bull is Cheating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    Traction Control of ANY SORT is BANNED!!!!!!!!!!
    In the wake of the Singapore Grand Prix, utterly dominated by the Red Bull RB9 of Sebastian Vettel, questions have been raised about whether the car is using traction control. This is highly unlikely and it is probable that those suggesting that the RB9 runs TC lack understanding of how such systems work

    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    In the wake of the Singapore Grand Prix, utterly dominated by the Red Bull RB9 of Sebastian Vettel, questions have been raised about whether the car is using traction control. This is highly unlikely and it is probable that those suggesting that the RB9 runs TC lack understanding of how such systems work
    Where you got this statement from?
    thank you
    "If I was driving for Red Bull [from 2008] probably I would have more championships, but because they were dominating between 2010 and 2014 probably I would never have driven for Ferrari. I am very happy and very proud to drive for Ferrari, all my time there.

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    "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senna4Ever View Post
    Where you got this statement from?
    thank you
    In the first post?
    Forza Ferrari

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    To be honest with you, I would really like that press is writing same things about Ferrari. Because in my interpretation that would mean that Ferrari R&D is creative, innovative and pushing the limits. To my defend, it doesn't mean that they are not doing it now, but result are not speaking for them selfs....

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    Charlie Whiting has told Sport Bild: “(FIA technical delegate) Jo Bauer has found no irregularities. Everything is under our control, and Vettel’s car complies with the regulations.”

    http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/03/w...rregularities/

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dino View Post
    Charlie Whiting has told Sport Bild: “(FIA technical delegate) Jo Bauer has found no irregularities. Everything is under our control, and Vettel’s car complies with the regulations.”

    http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/03/w...rregularities/
    Of course! Intelligent engineering! Ferrari should do the same!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dino View Post
    Charlie Whiting has told Sport Bild: “(FIA technical delegate) Jo Bauer has found no irregularities. Everything is under our control, and Vettel’s car complies with the regulations.”

    http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/03/w...rregularities/
    They forgot to say that Bernie handed him a sack with a $ sign on it just before he was making this statement.

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    If Whiting deemed Vettel's car as legal, there must've been a team at the FIA who have looked at the car closely before. Just go ask them what was it they saw which made that RB9 so great!

    EDIT: Just drop a snitch from Ferrari into the FIA governing body who can regularly inspect Red Bull cars!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    In the first post?

    Sorry Sir, haven't seen it was part of the initial posting of @SilverSpeed
    I thought it was from other source and I just wanted to read the article for interest ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino View Post
    Charlie Whiting has told Sport Bild: “(FIA technical delegate) Jo Bauer has found no irregularities. Everything is under our control, and Vettel’s car complies with the regulations.”

    http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/03/w...rregularities/
    ahhh Mr. Whiting says as long Jo Bauer isn't exploring something there is also nothing ... then it must be bullet proof.

    I think only in politics you have persons who remain in the same position without any regular competitors for their job like at the FIA ...

    If Whiting deemed Vettel's car as legal, there must've been a team at the FIA who have looked at the car closely before.
    It would make me worry if it would need a other team intervention for FIA to investigate a car that runs nearly 2,5 seconds faster than the first competitor (and also the own team mate) ...
    Last edited by Senna4Ever; 3rd October 2013 at 14:15.
    "If I was driving for Red Bull [from 2008] probably I would have more championships, but because they were dominating between 2010 and 2014 probably I would never have driven for Ferrari. I am very happy and very proud to drive for Ferrari, all my time there.

  30. #30
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    Could TC be implemented with the help of KERS? I mean, use the electric motor. Are there any other restrictions on KERS apart from 7 sec per lap?

    EDIT: I know it is usually used once you reach 100kph, but what about on corner exit?

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