Ferrari F138 - Development and News

[mugdoc]

Translation please:xmastongue:?

I dont understand either :D

[Massimo]

Rilancio in 5 mosse - the way back in 5 steps.
It says:"Alonso wants a more extreme car, but the 2013 rules prevent that, but there are several areas in which work needs to be done, starting now 'till the beginning of February.

Then they are pointing out in which areas, a little bit above you can find a picture of a Red Bull rear, above that i've described those area's.

The ones they are mentioning here are, starting at the top, going clockwise:
1-Suspension with encased wishbone and axle/driveshaft (like on the picture above of the RB8)
2-cover for the step nose, but this is purely for aesthetic reasons
3-Changing the position and shape of the radiators, as you can see the radiators are completely vertical, the 2013 will be sloping very much forwards and follow the shape of the sides.(the small red arrow you see in the radiator drawing is an arm connecting the chassis and the gearbox, to make the car stiffer, a solution Alonso brought from Renault)
4-5- Changing of the sides and exhausts, the whole design was based around the Acer exhausts, which were quickly abandoned, because they did not give the desired results on track, this was one of the main reasons the F2012 performed not as expected.
The 664 will no longer have this exhaust system, but will most likely use the sides/exhaust concept as seen on the Sauber and Red Bull, this system has proven to be the most effective way of using the hot air from the exhausts and improving downforce, because of this change, they will have to completely redesign the diffusor, in this area we will see the most radical changes.

[fratelliferrari]

Thank you Massimo! Very good translation and now I understand the whole picture very well:xmastongue:

[bluesilhouettes]

Thanks !
But there's nothing new, the article again showed the weaknesses of the car that we've already told long ago.

[Rosso Corsa]

With people on forums they can take an educated guess then pat themselves on the back if proven right but in any role you have to confirm the facts with detailed analysis as perception alone can be misleading.

No self back patting here, just alarm. I agree, detailed analysis was necessary, but a poor car at launch was indicator number 1. We had several failed upgrades before September, but only in September did we visit Cologne to compare wind tunnel data, and only then did we begin to develop a plan to tackle the issue. Really, that's just poor. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but all the markers were there very early in the season that should have prompted action, especially if we'd learned anything from recent history (end of 2010, all of 2011). The question has to be asked, how can a team of Ferrari's standing have not identified and acted on the prompts earlier? It was simply an educated guess from the forum members, but we saw it regardless. The story suggests Ferrari didn't.

I'm not calling for people to be sacked, but like I said before, I'd sure be making some people very uncomfortable in the board room. We've had a period of repeating the same mistakes for a year or two now. As Einstein said, the definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I hope that the wind tunnel repairs really do finally put this problem to bed at last.

[mark p]

I agree on the face of it why did they not action on this straight away. the thing is they might have. to check and confirm wt issue may take a few weeks but it was months before going to Toyota wt s. maybe it's because the resources a team of Ferraris size have to take takes w while to plan the logistics are huge plus you cannot just turn up at Toyota the use of their wt has to be booked a price, payments negotiated. Toyota wt was only real option but takes alot of planning and process hence the possible gap in time. Just a thought.

[Rosso Corsa]

That's a good point I hadn't thought about, but Tomazis interview preview for India is talking very much current tense about making the decisions and taking actions to pursue track tests and comparing against another wind tunnel. That was October, following the disasterous Singapore update, prior to which there were no reports from Ferrari or the media that we'd used or considered using wind tunnels anywhere else.

The best excuse Ferrari have got, and it's a very good one, is that not all the data the wind tunnel gave us was bad. Sometimes the correlation was great, and other times it was bad. And not only Ferrari suffer with that problem to be fair. However, we endured a very long period through the summer into autumn where it seemed none of the front wings we brought ever made it from free practice to race day, and a whole bunch of rear wings and diffuser iterations didn't make it either. The fact is, our car stood relatively still for a period while Red Bull and Mclaren did find the solutions to go faster, so for however many updates they canned, they at least produced some that worked. Once we started using the Cologne tunnel, the proportion of updates that made it to race day grew against the number that didn't. And the ones that didn't make it initially made it eventually when they were tuned to talk to eachother better (front wing, rear wing, diffuser).

Trying not to sound like I'm crying over spilt milk (doing a bad job), but my honest appraisal, the prompts were there a long time ago to try wind tunnel testing elsewhere, and for whatever reason, Ferrari faltered. It's easy to call 'we've now got the benefit of hindsight', but it's every teams ability to recognise issues in real-time that separates the winners from the losers. I'm surprised Ferrari played such novice hand in that department this year.

[Massimo]

Maybe the answer is simpler than we think, aerodynamics is just not in Ferrari's racing DNA, that s one of the reasons they were not on top of the wind tunnel problems, this department (aero) hadn't grown at the same pace as the others.
Ferrari rarely put a car on the grid, that's a winner straight out of the box, always developing the car through endless km's of testing, with the testing ban, they'll have to do this by cfd, wind tunnel, simulations and that's not exactly Ferrari territory, so they have to switch to the highest gear to get it up to standard.
Mark has a good point, precious time was probaly lost on organisation and logistics.

"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines." Enzo Ferrari

[Gerhard Berger]

Maybe the answer is simpler than we think, aerodynamics is just not in Ferrari's racing DNA, that s one of the reasons they were not on top of the wind tunnel problems, this department (aero) hadn't grown at the same pace as the others.
Ferrari rarely put a car on the grid, that's a winner straight out of the box, always developing the car through endless km's of testing, with the testing ban, they'll have to do this by cfd, wind tunnel, simulations and that's not exactly Ferrari territory, so they have to switch to the highest gear to get it up to standard.
Mark has a good point, precious time was probaly lost on organisation and logistics.

"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines." Enzo Ferrari

Well we were kings of aerodynamics in 2007 and 2008, and the aerodynamics on the cars back then were more complicated than what we have now.

I think the ban on track testing and use of full scale wind tunnel has hurt our process.

[Rosso Corsa]

Mark has a good point, precious time was probaly lost on organisation and logistics.

If it takes Ferrari four fifths of a season to organise a wind tunnel test, we're in bigger trouble than I thought :xmasbiggrin: Logistics do take time, but the staff, resources and brains at Ferrari make quick work of big jobs. Steffano, Tombazis and Fry will also most likely be able to sign off spend very quickly.

[Rob]

Ferrari to split F1 design programmes for 2013 and '14 cars
By Matt Beer Thursday, December 20th 2012, 21:52 GMT

Ferrari has appointed separate design co-ordinators for its 2013 and '14 Formula 1 cars as part of a reorganisation of its technical efforts.

While Nikolas Tombazis retains his chief designer role, Ferrari will split responsibility for its next two F1 contenders.

Team boss Stefano Domenicali said Ferrari had concluded that inefficient technical organisation had been a key weak point in recent seasons. The squad has not won a world championship since Kimi Raikkonen's 2007 triumph.

This year Fernando Alonso took an unlikely points lead despite Ferrari starting the campaign off the pace, but was ultimately beaten to the title by Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel.

"We have decided, particularly in light of the unusual demands we will face in 2013, when we will have a completely new project to work on for the future, to have two co-ordinators," Domenicali said.

"Simone Resta, an engineer who has developed his career in Maranello and is very effective, will work on the 2013 car and Fabio Montecchi will deal with the one for the following year."

Ferrari is revamping its windtunnel after pinpointing correlation problems, and Domenicali said it will also adjust its windtunnel testing procedures.

"We have also adopted a better method of splitting up the work between those who run the windtunnel and those who should concentrate more on the creative side of the job," he said.

"This year, we saw that when we do too many things at the same time, maybe we are not efficient enough."

Ferrari has invariably been among the first to unveil its new car each winter, but Domenicali suggested that the 2013 machine will not break cover until the eve of the first test.

"Clearly we have only been concentrating all our efforts on the new one from a few weeks before the final race, given we pushed right to the end on this year's," he said.

"The 2013 car will be launched at the very end of January or the early days of February.

"As usual, the first one will be just a launch version, while the complete one will be seen in the final days of testing or in Australia, so as to make the most of all the time available."

Team president Luca di Montezemolo reiterated that Ferrari must also be more bold with its designs.

"We will need to try and push the technical regulations to the very limit," he said, "while maintaining our strong points from this year, or improving them still further, because the others will not be twiddling their thumbs, but not by almost brushing against illegality, as happened in 2009 with the double diffuser.

"However we need to adopt a different, more creative approach."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104906

[Tifoso]

When did Ferrari stop doing alternate years?

[mark p]

Who is to say Ferrari were not working at Toyota wt well before they announced it. I would think you cannot just walk in to a wt and go for it you would have to calibrate as well. I think F2012 had issue with being compromised by the acerduct and the imoact this had on the rest of the design, Ferrari were awesome considering this but the frustration was the car was wrong at inception. If F2013 has a good working philosophy the rest will follow.

[alecf1]

Who is to say Ferrari were not working at Toyota wt well before they announced it. I would think you cannot just walk in to a wt and go for it you would have to calibrate as well. I think F2012 had issue with being compromised by the acerduct and the imoact this had on the rest of the design, Ferrari were awesome considering this but the frustration was the car was wrong at inception. If F2013 has a good working philosophy the rest will follow.

If you are 1,5 seconds off the pace you have all the right to say the car was wrong from inception and that is the only thing in F1 that should not happen. Ferrari tried everything to recover that gap and I think they did a great job, but even if they would have closed the windtunnel after the first GP and start to work with the other one it wouldn't have changed a thing. Nobody can recover such a gap, that hasn't happened in F1 history jet. After the Canada update the car has reached its limit. In the 'ams' article they stated that whatever changes they made to the frontwing, the rearwing or the diffuser after the canada GP nothing made the car faster. They could have only make the car faster by making serious changes to the design of the car and there was no time to do so. They were simply running out of time, they should have stopped bringing updates to every race and instead use the free practise sessions to maximise the set up with the old car.

For the fans it is a shame that ferrari hasn't sorted out the windtunnel issue earlier, they could have done it one year earlier, but at least they do it now. I can understand ferrari, it is hard to make such a huge desicion as to close a windtunnel for more than one year, rebuild it and meanwhile use another one, not only from a technical point of view, but from an economical too. The desicion they have made this year will cost a lot, I think that also played a role in 2011, when they first noticed the windtunnel is not always correct. First they tried the cheap solution, just calibrated the tunnel and hoped to get away with it, when they understood it will not work that way, they switched to the expensive solution. Fans do not think about the economical point of view, that' s why it is hard for them to have some mercy for the team about the windtunnel issue.

I still think ferrari learnt from recent dissapointments. Pat Fry has made a lot of changes to the technical department and changes take time. The F2012 was the first car under his responsibility and for a first try it was not that bad, I mean it is not like we became 10th in the constructor championship. His next try will be better, I will take a bet, Alonso already said that the start of the next season cannot become worse than 2012.

[mark p]

Agreed. Theybably understood what neeed to be changed but no time to do this mid season in the middle of a tiyle battle. Hopefully they have a great idea of changes needed for 2013 and could start looking into it way before the end of 2012. At least they failed in design by pushing to far rather than ploding along with conservative past it philosophies like 2011. 2011 not enough 2012 too much so 2013 should come close to the sweet spot.

[Rob]

Ferrari is confident the minor rule changes
The restricted use of the DRS and the new Pirelli tires, softer, should fit the new Ferrari 2013.
MIGUEL SANZ. MADRID 21/12/12 - 17:07.
printsends
250

Few rules changes for 2013, but none was poorly received at Ferrari. Banning DRS free on Saturdays, a weapon that Red Bull squeezed a blast, a change welcomed by Stefano Domenicali, not least because Ferrari never quite exploded and was one of the great advantages of the winning team. " It's a major change, the single largest in the regulations of 2013, which should be taken into account " , recognized the Italian team leader.

We also hope that the new Pirelli tires, softer, already tested in free practice of the Grand Prix of Brazil, are also more amenable to heat that this year. One example is that the tire through this year will be tough next year. "We believe degradaremos less," admits team leader, recalled that the problems of the 2012 season in which it took between two and five laps heating the gums , often putting at risk the track position of its pilots.

Moreover, the new test of flexibility imposed by the FIA for the ailerons, another strength of Red Bull and the most controversial for the past couple of seasons, is another element that can reduce the advantage of the winning team in the last three years.

http://www.marca.com/2012/12/21/moto...356106078.html

[PURE PASSION]

As other said before me, I prefer to win with something that our time come up rather then try to weaken the winning team with new rules!!!(as happend to us in '05)

[mark p]

Swings and roundabouts. Ferrari were doing well until 2009 rules came in plus flex rules are to prevent people getting round the rules infact not s rule change just a better way to test existing rules. I would like to see Ferrari not hold back in any area for cost saving and just go for it RB do. Also do not take flex test to mean it's impossible and look for ways to beat the test. Flex the diffuser edges if possible, if it helps.

[scuderiafan]

As with EBD last year. IMO we can't rely on this, RedBull, McLaren and Mercedes will find some sort of good innovation and its back to square one.

[AfterLife]

Rilancio in 5 mosse - the way back in 5 steps.
It says:"Alonso wants a more extreme car, but the 2013 rules prevent that, but there are several areas in which work needs to be done, starting now 'till the beginning of February.

Then they are pointing out in which areas, a little bit above you can find a picture of a Red Bull rear, above that i've described those area's.

The ones they are mentioning here are, starting at the top, going clockwise:
1-Suspension with encased wishbone and axle/driveshaft (like on the picture above of the RB8)
2-cover for the step nose, but this is purely for aesthetic reasons
3-Changing the position and shape of the radiators, as you can see the radiators are completely vertical, the 2013 will be sloping very much forwards and follow the shape of the sides.(the small red arrow you see in the radiator drawing is an arm connecting the chassis and the gearbox, to make the car stiffer, a solution Alonso brought from Renault)
4-5- Changing of the sides and exhausts, the whole design was based around the Acer exhausts, which were quickly abandoned, because they did not give the desired results on track, this was one of the main reasons the F2012 performed not as expected.
The 664 will no longer have this exhaust system, but will most likely use the sides/exhaust concept as seen on the Sauber and Red Bull, this system has proven to be the most effective way of using the hot air from the exhausts and improving downforce, because of this change, they will have to completely redesign the diffusor, in this area we will see the most radical changes.

I read some of them exactly in the past!?

[Rob]

FERRARI TO DEVELOP 2013 CAR IN COLOGNE
Thursday 27 December at 06:35 : Dec.27 (GMM) Ferrari will develop the aerodynamics of its 2013 car exclusively in Cologne.

After encountering problems with its Maranello facility this year, Ferrari's wind tunnel will be closed next year until August.

International reports, including in El Mundo Deportivo newspaper (Spain) and Kolner Express (Germany), said Ferrari has now turned its attention to Cologne, where the former F1 team Toyota rents out its state-of-the-art facility to clients.

Asked why Ferrari chose Cologne exclusively, team boss Stefano Domenicali said: "Because working in two wind tunnels would be too risky."

Team president Luca di Montezemolo added: "We will develop the 2013 car exclusively in the Toyota wind tunnel to avoid confusion and mistakes."

The Italian added that McLaren is also a regular customer of the Toyota tunnel.

Toyota Motorsport GmbH's Rob Leupen commented: "Our clients are very happy with our wind tunnel services."

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/daily...n+Cologne.html

[Corey]

Would be a bit risky for the wind tunnel to come in 2014 as that is when everyone has to start from scratch again to create their new cars, we'll need to be spending extra effort to understand the new tunnel then.

[Rob]

The new Ferrari is approved for the Jerez test
The Red 2013 has already passed all the crash tests at the CSI Bollate
December 27, 2012 15:56
The gestation of the F2012 was not the best: last year the car Horse had failed the first test of a crash that forced the engineers to repeat the test side impact on the body. This year, however, things seem to be going well as the Ferrari 664, as it is called the Red Army in 2013 according to the numbering of the project, has successfully passed all tests in mid-December the Security Center which is one of the Italian Bollate of those certified by the FIA with the English Cranfield. APPROVED FOR JEREZ The monocoque of the new Ferrari has been approved by the International Federation for which the F2013 (the machine you could call it that) will be allowed to run on February 5 in the first test session collective will officially open the new season at Jerez. FRAME AND 'AN EVOLUTION F2012 The design of the 664 is that the development of this year, so in Maranello did not expect "surprises" in terms of chassis section, In fact, there are no important variations regulations. The increase in the minimum weight of the cars 2013 (only 2 kg) was driven by the increase in mass of the Pirelli tires and does not deal with the parts that are subjected to strict controls FIA of Commissioners. NEWS 'A Madonna di Campiglio The date the presentation of the machine (this is called a period from 31 January to 2 February) will be made ​​official in Madonna di Campiglio at Vroom, the usual appointment anticipating the inauguration during which will be widely publicized, including possible changes in the structure of Prancing Horse.


http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/240...-test-di-jerez

[FrankAlfa]

Very good to hear that Ferrari have to different Engineering Teams set up to advance the 2013' Race Car and the 2014' Race Car! :

Ferrari to split F1 design programmes for 2013 and '14 cars
By Matt Beer Thursday, December 20th 2012, 21:52 GMT

Ferrari has appointed separate design co-ordinators for its 2013 and '14 Formula 1 cars as part of a reorganisation of its technical efforts.

While Nikolas Tombazis retains his chief designer role, Ferrari will split responsibility for its next two F1 contenders.

Team boss Stefano Domenicali said Ferrari had concluded that inefficient technical organisation had been a key weak point in recent seasons. The squad has not won a world championship since Kimi Raikkonen's 2007 triumph.

This year Fernando Alonso took an unlikely points lead despite Ferrari starting the campaign off the pace, but was ultimately beaten to the title by Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel.

"We have decided, particularly in light of the unusual demands we will face in 2013, when we will have a completely new project to work on for the future, to have two co-ordinators," Domenicali said.

"Simone Resta, an engineer who has developed his career in Maranello and is very effective, will work on the 2013 car and Fabio Montecchi will deal with the one for the following year."

Ferrari is revamping its windtunnel after pinpointing correlation problems, and Domenicali said it will also adjust its windtunnel testing procedures.

"We have also adopted a better method of splitting up the work between those who run the windtunnel and those who should concentrate more on the creative side of the job," he said.

"This year, we saw that when we do too many things at the same time, maybe we are not efficient enough."

Ferrari has invariably been among the first to unveil its new car each winter, but Domenicali suggested that the 2013 machine will not break cover until the eve of the first test.

"Clearly we have only been concentrating all our efforts on the new one from a few weeks before the final race, given we pushed right to the end on this year's," he said.

"The 2013 car will be launched at the very end of January or the early days of February.

"As usual, the first one will be just a launch version, while the complete one will be seen in the final days of testing or in Australia, so as to make the most of all the time available."

Team president Luca di Montezemolo reiterated that Ferrari must also be more bold with its designs.

"We will need to try and push the technical regulations to the very limit," he said, "while maintaining our strong points from this year, or improving them still further, because the others will not be twiddling their thumbs, but not by almost brushing against illegality, as happened in 2009 with the double diffuser.

"However we need to adopt a different, more creative approach."

inShare1


I think this is a very good development for the team to stay on top of the curve and yeild more from the pooled results from the Wind Tunnel testing. Ferrari caretainly has the capacity to do more and reach further and they need to better exploit that ability!

Ciao,

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[FrankAlfa]

I have a HUGE ISSUE with Domenicali making this public!!!!!!!! What is he doing, telling the entire world what Ferrari is doing behind closed doors?????? This guy is an idiot and Ferrari should fire him immediately for his continued poor behavior that can cost the Ferrari team dearly!!!!! Why are they letting him shoot his mouth off like this???? Keep you mouth shout on everything and let the performance of the race car speak for itself!!!!! When was the last time we heard what Red Bull or McLaren were doing to design their race cars??????!!!!!!!

This guy is an idiot and should be fired already!!!!!!!!!

Ciao,

Forza Ferrari!!!!!!

[Forzi]

I have a HUGE ISSUE with Domenicali making this public!!!!!!!! What is he doing, telling the entire world what Ferrari is doing behind closed doors?????? This guy is an idiot and Ferrari should fire him immediately for his continued poor behavior that can cost the Ferrari team dearly!!!!! Why are they letting him shoot his mouth off like this???? Keep you mouth shout on everything and let the performance of the race car speak for itself!!!!! When was the last time we heard what Red Bull or McLaren were doing to design their race cars??????!!!!!!!

This guy is an idiot and should be fired already!!!!!!!!!

Ciao,

Forza Ferrari!!!!!!

You're really over reacting and blaming him for pretty much nothing. Don't see ANYTHING bad about what he said and how it could cost Ferrari dearly. Rather sure all of the teams are doing the same thing on working on the 2014 car. Seems common sence to invest some amount of recourses in to the year where we see huge changes. The season is as long as ever, wont be enough time to make ideas happen between em. I personally like hearing some news from the team, than dead silence.

[FrankAlfa]

@ Forzi,

I stand by my opinion of Domenicali! Have you ever heard the saying "Loose Lips Sink Ships"??? For the Ferrari team, the less they say the better! There is just no reason to tell anyone what they are doing! In the Ross Brawn days, very little ever leaked out about the Ferrari Team! This guy has a problem keeping his mouth shut! Why is he even talking at all??? He should be in the factory watching what's going on and being involved with the work needed to start winning again. There is to much work to be done for him to be spouting off like he is!

Ciao,

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Kiwi Nick]

Frank is 100% right. Domenicali has been over his head since he was appointed to his position. Look at the time frame, events and results. It is crystal clear that he needs to go. But, he is LDM's boy and that counts for a lot.

[Forzi]

Talking too much about these kinds of things don't make the car slower, don't cost us championships, nor does it really make him a worser leader of a team. Ofcourse it doesn't make the car go faster, nor does it make him a better leader, but that ain't a reason to call him names and demand his head. People getting touchy and just searching for absurd reasons to claim he should be sacked. I'm not saying he's doing a good job, results speak for them selves, but making these lil press releases reasoning for getting him fired is a lil silly.

[Tifoso]

Talking too much about these kinds of things don't make the car slower, don't cost us championships, nor does it really make him a worser leader of a team. Ofcourse it doesn't make the car go faster, nor does it make him a better leader, but that ain't a reason to call him names and demand his head. People getting touchy and just searching for absurd reasons to claim he should be sacked. I'm not saying he's doing a good job, results speak for them selves, but making these lil press releases reasoning for getting him fired is a lil silly.

I don't see how it's silly, at all. He's been here for quite some time and has produced zero trophies. My patience is running a tad thin.