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Thread: Can Sebastian Vettel prove his worth beyond Red Bull?

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    Can Sebastian Vettel prove his worth beyond Red Bull?

    Can Sebastian Vettel prove his worth beyond Red Bull?

    With questions remaining about whether the German's success is down to the car, is it time for him to switch team?

    Despite winning three consecutive driver’s titles, there is still a shroud of mystery surrounding how good a driver Sebastian Vettel really is. Achieving something only previously attained by Juan Manual Fangio and Michael Schumacher should have set him apart as one of the most talented drivers in the history of the sport. However, out of all the current drivers, it is Fernando Alonso who holds this accreditation. The enigma behind Vettel’s success needs to be unravelled to reveal the true picture.

    Spending his three victorious years driving the most superior car on the grid, and one designed by aerodynamic virtuoso, Adrian Newey, throws up the conundrum about whether his talents stretch further than being able to deliver in an outstanding car.

    In 2010 there was no doubt that the RB6 was the best car. Sebastian clinched the title closely run between himself, team mate Mark Webber, and Fernando Alonso in the final race in Abu Dhabi. It was the first time he had led the championship race all year. Luck had certainly been smiling on the young German as Vitaly Petrov held Alonso and Webber up, allowing Robert Kubica to rejoin in front of them following his pit stop, gifting Vettel the victory and putting him four points clear of Alonso in the Championship.

    2011 was a year completely dominated by Vettel; an easy victory sparking talk about whether his abilities were limited to leading from the front. In a more closely fought championship however, 2012 affirmed his talent in overtaking. Starting in the pit lane in Abu Dhabi due to a breach of the rules regarding the amount of fuel left in the car after qualifying, he incised his way through the field finishing third. His unfortunate incident on the opening lap in Brazil that left him nursing a damaged car for the entirety of the race, gave him another opportunity to prove his worth as he made up eighteen places to finish in sixth. Despite showing that he does possess skill in overtaking, he did so in the best car on the grid, meaning that the cloud of enigma hasn’t entirely dissipated.

    An attempt frequently made to solve the mystery of Sebastian Vettel is the comparison between himself and team mate Mark Webber. Webber hasn’t been able to match his young counterparts success, however the notion of Mark being a number two driver at Red Bull is one that, although unsaid, continues to make itself apparent. His comment, “Not bad for a number two driver” comment following his win at Silverstone in 2010 is now infamous. This was a win he achieved despite being impeded by the team’s decision to remove his front wing in favour of Vettel, and the comment confirmed his number two status. More recently, Ferrari chief Stefano Domenicalli has cast doubt over whether the team mates are given identical machinery. No one is denying Sebastian Vettel has a remarkable talent, perhaps of a higher class than that of Mark Webber, but when given superior machinery is it clear to tell how much higher?

    Often talked about as the best ever to have driven an F1 car, Juan Manuel Fangio won five championships with four different constructors; a feat achieved by seeking out the teams with the best cars. Fangio is described as exuding style and grace in his driving and there must be no disputing he must have been heavily laden with talent in order to secure a drive with the team fielding the most superior car each season. However, following the teams that can provide a car guaranteed to win a World Championship, or staying with a team who can deliver the same promise, reveals an unease about their own talent.

    At the time of his tragic death at Hockenheim in 1968, Jim Clark was the most decorated driver of all time, having clocked up the most wins and pole positions. He experienced times when the car was far from competitive, particularly in 1966 due to regulation changes, a season in which he still took a victory and finished sixth in the Championship. He was renowned for being able to drive and take victories in all sorts of cars and series, showing an innate ability to metamorphasise his talents to the needs of each car, but he also showed that he was able to achieve success in a car that was far from the best. Such traits are not possessed by Sebastian Vettel. At the beginning of the 2012 season, Mark Webber was outperforming his team mate because it took the German longer to get used to the RB8.

    It takes talent, and strength of mind, to go to a team with a car still requiring development. Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso both proved expertise in their craft by moving to Ferrari at a time when the car wasn’t competitive. Lewis Hamilton has taken the first steps to affirming his flair and skill with a move to Mercedes. Recently, Adrian Newey made a comment about the lack of input Sebastian Vettel have on the car. Clearly there with the sole purpose of driving the car, will he ever be able to move to a team to support development as Schumacher did at Ferrari, or as Hamilton hopes to do at Mercedes?

    With the most authentic example of his actual talent arguably being his win at Monza in 2008 in an uncompetitive Toro Rosso, it would seem that no matter how many titles he wins, an air of ambiguity surrounding his real talent will continue to follow Sebastian Vettel all the while he remains within the comfort of Red Bull. Although yet to prove whether he has made the right move, Lewis Hamilton has shown he has the confidence to move to a team not leading the pack. If the mist of mystery surrounding Vettel is to evaporate, maybe he should follow Lewis’ example, demonstrating faith in his own talent. After all, if he doesn’t, why should anyone else?

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    And WHY DO WE CARE about Vettel on a FERRARI SITE??????? This thread sould be on the General Topic Site!

    We Ferrari Fans DO NOT CARE about Vettel or what Red Bull are doing! No More Threads Like This on this Ferrari Web Site!

    Ferrari Topic News Only!

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!

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    This post is silly.
    Last edited by Rob; 16th February 2013 at 18:48. Reason: please mind the language. Family forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    And WHY DO WE CARE about Vettel on a FERRARI SITE??????? This thread sould be on the General Topic Site!

    We Ferrari Fans DO NOT CARE about Vettel or what Red Bull are doing! No More Threads Like This on this Ferrari Web Site!

    Ferrari Topic News Only!

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!

    x2. Getting sick of the topic.
    ~FORZA FERRARI~

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    And WHY DO WE CARE about Vettel on a FERRARI SITE??????? This thread sould be on the General Topic Site!

    We Ferrari Fans DO NOT CARE about Vettel or what Red Bull are doing! No More Threads Like This on this Ferrari Web Site!

    Ferrari Topic News Only!

    Ciao,

    Have you seen how many gineric forum post we have?!?!!? Its not like the ferrari news is flowing in my friend!!! Thi is a perfect time to discuss over items before Barcelona, then again, looking at some of you past post it looks like you dont contribute much, no ferrari related news at all!
    Forza Ferrari!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    And WHY DO WE CARE about Vettel on a FERRARI SITE??????? This thread sould be on the General Topic Site!

    We Ferrari Fans DO NOT CARE about Vettel or what Red Bull are doing! No More Threads Like This on this Ferrari Web Site!

    Ferrari Topic News Only!

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!
    He who does not take the effort to know his opponent will never win.
    I am first of all interested in what Ferrari does too of course, but it is almost just as important to know what the rest is doing - because only the comparison will give value to Ferrari's efforts.
    You can run like the wind, but you'll never outrun the Prancing Horse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonsomaniac View Post
    He who does not take the effort to know his opponent will never win.
    I am first of all interested in what Ferrari does too of course, but it is almost just as important to know what the rest is doing - because only the comparison will give value to Ferrari's efforts.
    Thank you, it seems to me some people are more than happy to criticise, but not conttibute, especially at a time when where all wanting to talk about f1 with not much hppening

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    FRANKALFA..Have you seen how many gineric forum post we have?!?!!? Its not like the ferrari news is flowing in my friend!!! Thi is a perfect time to discuss over items before Barcelona, then again, looking at some of you past post it looks like you dont contribute much, no ferrari related news at all!

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    Mark is better than Sebastian

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    @ Jas,

    I don't agree! Like the thread about Car Design which talked about and showed Mercedes, Porsche & BMW cars on this site; this really is not the place for that. Your thread about Vettel on this Ferrari site is really not needed friend. Talk about Vettel some place else. Vettel is a Red Bull Topic.

    There is plenty of Ferrari Related News to talk about! Like when is Alonso going to test? What does Ferrari have scheduled to introduce at the next test which is this coming week? Any reports on if Ferrari have improved tire warming situation and grip? Have Ferrari got a secret weapon in store for the season with their inventive way of handling air flow through a front nose by collecting and channeling air to the front wing elements to influence downforce? How about the projected location and location of flow from the exhaust gases? How about any opinions on the revised floor design the Ferrari team have?

    You see there is plenty of things to talk about regarding the Ferrari Team and no other team need be involved! Vettel, Hamilton, and the others are just drivers and if the car has ability and the driver meshes with the car, they will excell. If not, they will not! Case Closed!

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!

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    Before he proves himself without Red Bull/Newey, I'd like to see him prove his worth without EBD. Not that he would suck without EBD, but one of the best drivers on the grid should be able to dominate a very good driver, as Alonso has done against drivers like Fisichella and Massa. Without EBD, Vettel has never been able to dominate Webber. Let's see what happens in 2014 when he loses EBD.

    If he passes that test, the next test will be to see how good he is without Newey-designed rocket-ships. If he leaves Red Bull and takes Newey with him, then in my opinion the only way he could prove himself is to beat Alonso in the same car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    And WHY DO WE CARE about Vettel on a FERRARI SITE??????? This thread sould be on the General Topic Site!

    We Ferrari Fans DO NOT CARE about Vettel or what Red Bull are doing! No More Threads Like This on this Ferrari Web Site!

    Ferrari Topic News Only!

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!
    Nothing wrong discussing about our closest competitors

    You guys do know that you are not forced to read every threads right?

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    If anyone cares to read the description of the forum "Come on in to discuss the latest news and events surrounding the Ferrari F1 team and F1 news that affects Ferrari. Enjoy the friendly atmosphere as you meet some of the best Tifosi in the world. This is the place to be kept right up to date with all things F1."

    No one forced you to read anything. On a related note, we also talked about how Lewis moved onto Mercedes too and the design of other teams' cars. Should we omit talking about these as they are not directly related to Ferrari?



    Jas: just a suggestion though, it's best if you post the original source of the article and give credit to the author.

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    Personally, I believe Vettel would prove to be a very good driver even if he is not driving a rocket ship. He is lucky to have spent his learning years in a very competitive RB, he could have looked very ordinary had he started his F1 career with a weaker team. Surely he has matured with age & learned more nuances to good driving. Vettel is future of Ferrari, like him or hate him, he is good (but not the best!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    And WHY DO WE CARE about Vettel on a FERRARI SITE??????? This thread sould be on the General Topic Site!

    We Ferrari Fans DO NOT CARE about Vettel or what Red Bull are doing! No More Threads Like This on this Ferrari Web Site!

    Ferrari Topic News Only!

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!
    Easy Frank, that' a tad unnecessarily aggressive, this is not a dictatorship, there are Ferrari fans here that have an interest in all things F1 related, that doesn't make them any less a fan, if you feel so strongly that you want to only ever read Ferrari related news then don't read a thread titled " Can Sebastian Vettel prove his worth beyond Red Bull?"...


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    @ Tobes,

    Well I will certainly respect your review of the matter but I have been on many other Ferrari Sites in the past and when the site becomes filled with Non-Ferrari related items it does lessen the original intent of the we site. I only ask that "Off Topic" threads have some meaure of direct relevance to Ferrari and all things Ferrari related. I have read many responding the this thread with the same response I had and question why it is being discussed on this site as well. So I am certainly not alone in my opinion and I ask that their voices be heard as well. In this day and age of "Extreme" Political Correctness we should still be able to embrace some constants because that is why some were created in the first place and this Ferrari Web Site to discuss all things Ferrari related is one of them.

    I will fully respect your wishes.

    I will not post responses to Post Topics that I am not interested in nor feel Ferrari Related. I suggest that others that feel the same way I do, follow the same action. In this case a "NON-RESPONSE" will speak as loudly as an "AGGRESSIVE REPONSE"!

    Lastly, my appologize to Jas and anyone else I may have offended as a result of my overly "Aggressive" response. Lets all enjoy a fine Ferrari Winning Season ahead!

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!

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    Frankalfa

    Appoligy accepted, like u said, if yu dont like it, dont read it, I do exactly tghe same when looking at the forum titles, just ease back on the aggresivness and this forum will stay the best!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    @ Tobes,

    Well I will certainly respect your review of the matter but I have been on many other Ferrari Sites in the past and when the site becomes filled with Non-Ferrari related items it does lessen the original intent of the we site. I only ask that "Off Topic" threads have some meaure of direct relevance to Ferrari and all things Ferrari related. I have read many responding the this thread with the same response I had and question why it is being discussed on this site as well. So I am certainly not alone in my opinion and I ask that their voices be heard as well. In this day and age of "Extreme" Political Correctness we should still be able to embrace some constants because that is why some were created in the first place and this Ferrari Web Site to discuss all things Ferrari related is one of them.

    I will fully respect your wishes.

    I will not post responses to Post Topics that I am not interested in nor feel Ferrari Related. I suggest that others that feel the same way I do, follow the same action. In this case a "NON-RESPONSE" will speak as loudly as an "AGGRESSIVE REPONSE"!

    Lastly, my appologize to Jas and anyone else I may have offended as a result of my overly "Aggressive" response. Lets all enjoy a fine Ferrari Winning Season ahead!

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!
    Frank, I fully understand what you are saying, and appreciate the perception of it lessening the forum content, and as you point out, you are not alone in thinking that...
    In an effort to find a happy resolution for all members, in the past we had a forum called The Pitstop, actually I think it was The Williams Pitstop forum, it was for all non Ferrari related F1 news, I think i'm right in saying it was removed as it wasn't very popular and was a bit of a tumbleweed forum...
    The forum is bigger now and i'd imagine if it is felt by enough members that it would be beneficial to the forum as a whole to re-introduce this in an effort not to dilute the Ferrari Forum then may I suggest that those who feel that way could ask Greig if it is a possibility...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    ...my appologize to Jas and anyone else I may have offended as a result of my overly "Aggressive" response.
    Personally, I won't accept your apology because I do NOT believe it was necessary in the first place! As you suggested, I believe this type of thread belongs in the General Forum where, if it dies a slow and painful death, so be it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    ...I will not post responses to Post Topics that I am not interested in nor feel Ferrari Related. I suggest that others that feel the same way I do, follow the same action.In this case a "NON-RESPONSE" will speak as loudly as an "AGGRESSIVE REPONSE"!
    I absolutely agree with this attitude as it keeps the blood pressure down!!

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    ...Lets all enjoy a fine Ferrari Winning Season ahead!
    Totally agree with this!!

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    No he can't !!!!! he just got beaten by Lewis Hamilton in Suzuki Liama by over a second

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    Top gear times? Lap times from that programme are oh so dodgy to fit in with whatever angle the episode is trying to show. As for the topic on the thread it is simple in my opinion yes he could he won 3 titles in a row at a young age he is very very good. The way many perceive it any boy racer could win in the redbull its not true. last year it was mclaren with the fastest car and vettel beat hamilton in australia with a slower car. for me alonso is the one with most potential for titles at ferrari over thd coming years so happy we have him but i hope massa can win the title this year if as i hope its a straight fight between the 2 ferrari drivers for the title this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark p View Post
    ...for me alonso is the one with most potential for titles at ferrari over thd coming years so happy we have him but i hope massa can win the title this year if as i hope its a straight fight between the 2 ferrari drivers for the title this year.
    At the risk of subverting the topic at hand, I would like to respond to this comment!
    Much as we may "love" Massa, even in the same car, I don't believe we'll see him being Alonso's equal when it comes to racing!
    That is "my" most humble opinion and I'm sure there will be those who will argue the point and fair play to them!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sagi58 View Post
    At the risk of subverting the topic at hand, I would like to respond to this comment!
    Much as we may "love" Massa, even in the same car, I don't believe we'll see him being Alonso's equal when it comes to racing!
    That is "my" most humble opinion and I'm sure there will be those who will argue the point and fair play to them!!
    You are right. it would be a fairy tale but massa only dropped from alonso in pace from germany 2010 last 2 races 2012 was with him maybe faster. he hammered raikkonen in their time together and nearly beat hamilton in very equal cars. i jyst want to get to last race of the year with alonso going for the title with massa the only other driver that can win it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark p View Post
    ... [Massa] hammered raikkonen in their time together ...
    Though that may be true, for some part of their time together, at the end of the day, Kimi has a WDC with Ferrari, not Massa!
    ((And, yes, I know there are all sorts of extenuating circumstances as to why Massa hasn't won!))
    Last edited by sagi58; 18th February 2013 at 14:06.

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    Love how an off topic thread about Vettel can soon turn into Kimi won a title when Massa has not yet.

    Amazes me really.
    Forza Ferrari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Love how an off topic thread about Vettel can soon turn into Kimi won a title when Massa has not yet.

    Amazes me really.
    It's a gift!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Love how an off topic thread about Vettel can soon turn into Kimi won a title when Massa has not yet.

    Amazes me really.
    Perhaps Kimi stuff should be in the same forum as the Seb stuff if people don't want to read about drivers from another team...
    Forza Jules

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    Come on guys, we must acknowledge that Vettel has talent and has won 3 WDCs on the trot with Newey's help, but it still remains inconclusive as to just how good he is. When he drives a less dominant car, we'll see, but in the meantime I echo markp's thoughts and would love Felipe to win his long-awaited WDC, but have to admit that against Fernando in equal machinery, it'll be a tough one. Not impossible, though, if the car delivers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suzie View Post
    Perhaps Kimi stuff should be in the same forum as the Seb stuff if people don't want to read about drivers from another team...
    Actually, an "off the cuff" comment about an ex-Ferrari driver/WDC title holder is one thing and can/should be expected/accepted, within the context of the conversation!
    However, an entire thread dedicated to drivers who haven't ever been affiliated with Ferrari or partnered either of their drivers, would definitely belong in the General Forum!
    As would threads dedicated to other teams, managers, mechanics, etc. etc. etc.!

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    Do not care about Vettel do not even want to think about Vettel ever coming to Ferrari one day! lets hope he goes to Maclaren or Mercedes in the Future please refraim from having his name on this site unless Alonso and Massa beat him this year then I do not mind!

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