2nd Winter test, Barcelona 2013

[shamim179]

Looks like we're still good in the wet based on Massa's runs on Friday.

And like last year the Lotus becomes 'alive' at the latter stage of the race. Look at Grosjean's long run. His last stint was fast and consistent with very little drop-off. They will be a strong rival and what makes it even worse is if Grosjean is consistently up there with us at the starting grid. He's a very dangerous driver at the starts!

[khizerk]

I don't understand why you have directed your comment at me? :S

@scuderiafan
The frustrating thing is that the F150 had the same problem yet it wasn't solved for the next season. The F10 on the other hand was king in this area and overall a very well rounded car.

It wasn't that it wasn't 'solved' infact the entire sidepod/ exhaust arrangement made it worse. It was common knowledge that F2012 lacked backend traction which is what hurts most when coming out of low speed corners. And the exhausts not working as they should was the primary cause of it since at low speed you dont have aero downforce to help you. In fact being heavier with fuel at the start made F2012 competitive in race trim.

[wisepie]

Again we're getting carried away with the test times and drivers' perceived reaction to the way things are going, we certainly have to accept that the competition will be even stronger than last year but the base car that we're starting with appears to be a whole lot better than the F2012. I won't really believe where we stand until Q3 (God willing!) in Melbourne. and then we'll really see where we're at.

[Massimo]

Again we're getting carried away with the test times and drivers' perceived reaction to the way things are going, we certainly have to accept that the competition will be even stronger than last year but the base car that we're starting with appears to be a whole lot better than the F2012. I won't really believe where we stand until Q3 (God willing!) in Melbourne. and then we'll really see where we're at.

Agree, the reports from journalists are contradictory, everybody has their own analysis, fact is nobody really knows what team is strong or what team is of the pace.
Red Bull never show their real car 'till the last moment, remember last year, when they ran the B spec the last 2 days of the final test?
Alonso is a master illusionist, looking downbeat, telling journalists the car is ok, at the same time scoring purple sector times and then taking his foot of the gas, believe me, none of the big teams is showing their real pace.
Maybe even Melbourne is to soon to reveal the real potential of some cars.

[blaney1977]

Will the teams also know the pecking order?

[Jas]

Melbourne is a very specific track, street track at that, it wont be until china i believe we will find out!!

[Paulo Goncalves]

CMON SCUDERIA

[vcs316]

Barcelona: the day after

The weather turned unusually cold with even some snow in Barcelona, as the second pre-season test session ended, but the heat of competition is clear within Scuderia Ferrari after the first eight days of testing on Spanish soil. The F138 has shown it has got off on the right foot and although there is clearly much work to do to fully understand its behaviour, both drivers were in a positive frame of mind after driving it over these past two weeks.

Between Jerez and Barcelona, the car has racked up almost 3000 kilometres and there is still four more days of testing coming up at the Catalunya Circuit, prior to the team’s departure for Melbourne, where the 2013 championship gets underway on 17 March. Those remaining days will be used to complete the analysis of the car while also working on getting the most out of it, in its current configuration. A good team spirit is a vital part of preparation, in the weeks leading up to the Australian Grand Prix, with the drivers and team members all focussing in a cohesive manner on what lies ahead, whatever the intemperate weather might have in store for the next few days in Spain, prior to the final test session.

Over the four days in Montmelo, Fernando and Felipe completed a total of 363 laps, a tiny bit more than their main competitors. After getting an initial feel for for the F138 and carrying out some aerodynamic testing over the first two days, for his final day in the car, the Spaniard was able to look at set-up work and do a tyre comparison. He ended his first on-track appearance of the year with the second fastest time of the week, set on the Soft compound. It rained for much of the Brazilian’s one day at the wheel and he completed a very useful wet weather test for the team, setting reasonable times, reporting that the car handled well in the cold and slippery conditions. However, lap times still mean nothing at this stage and again this past week, it was difficult to draw any accurate conclusions as to the pecking order down pit lane: this is down to the big differences in the programmes being run and the fuel loads carried on a track where every 10 kilos of fuel costs three tenths of a second per lap. Next week, the team will bring the first few development parts planned for the F138 to Barcelona and will spend the final days of testing, running various race weekend simulations and only then is there a slight chance that a truer picture of the performance levels of the teams will emerge.

Another really unknown factor at the start of the year will be the behaviour of the new tyres. The entire Pirelli range features softer compounds than last year and that will make a difference, not just in qualifying, where we can expect to see quicker times- indeed this was already born out by the fact that this week’s test times were quicker than those on the Saturday of last year’s Spanish Grand Prix at the same track - but also in the race. Tyre wear is once again a topic for discussion and one will have to wait and see what this will really mean in terms of how many more pit stops might be necessary. The tyre factor will therefore give the drivers and team personnel something to think about, as well as injecting some unpredictability and spectacle, which is bound to go down well with the fans.

[vcs316]

Massa: Next week vital for Ferrari

Felipe Massa says that the 'important time' is coming up for Ferrari as teams now start to plan for the final pre-season test ahead of the start of the new F1 campaign.

Massa returned to action on Friday for the final day of the first Barcelona test, although his fourth day at the wheel of the new F138 was hit by the rain that arrived at Catalunya.

“Today was a difficult day for everyone and it's a pity that the weather conditions ruined the last day of testing,” he said. “I would have preferred to continue the work on tyres and set-up that Fernando started yesterday but the unpredictable weather made it very difficult to make accurate judgements about the car's behaviour.

“Certainly I would have preferred to test with better conditions but it was still useful to get a reference point in the wet.”

Speaking with the media following the test, the Brazilian expanded on where Ferrari currently stands in terms of its preparations for the year ahead, and he admitted that there were changes to come before the teams heads back to Barcelona next week for the final test of the winter.

"From Jerez, the car is exactly the same," he was quoted by Sky Sports. "We didn't change anything really, no new pieces or anything, so the car is exactly the same as we finished Jerez. For sure we understood maybe the little details around the car that maybe we change again for here. It's like an evolution but not with new pieces or anything.

"Anyhow it's really the important time that we can bring new pieces to the car. The car is still 'green' so we need to make the car in a good shape for the first race. There is a lot to work on, there is a lot to do, and maybe it's a very important moment as well for people working on the aerodynamics, on the engine, on the chassis to put everything together in a good direction for the first race.

“It's important we use the next week very well, and the two days I have and the two days Fernando has [in the car] just to be fully ready for the first race."

[anialonso]

Wow, that article is awful, even worse than Andrew Benson's usual garbage. Those guys were running Sky's online text covering testing so they can't have been trackside themselves. As you said their conclusions look like they're based on driver comments only.

One thing that really annoys me is that they say Ferrari are off the pace because Alonso "didn't seem particularly happy". Idiots! If you look at the comments from Vettel and Alonso at Barcelona, they are actually very similar - both gave little away and said their cars weren't much different to last year. Only difference is Vettel smiles a lot more when talking to English media and Alonso doesn't. It's not that Alonso is unhappy, he's just being cautious and not giving much away. Nothing wrong with that.





I think Ferrari have a lot more pace than they've shown so far and they are keen to hide it, and I think that's the reason for Alonso's "lack of enthusiasm towards the new Ferrari", as Sky put it. Alonso downplayed the car's performance saying it felt similar to Brazil-spec F2012 but Massa says the balance is much better and trackside observations confirm this.

On Day two Alonso twice deliberately slowed down in the third sector:

• @Diosfenix: Alonso fastest lap improvement in in S1 and S2 ...Finally lose it all in sector 3 ... he lifted his foot [His final lap was a 1:25.710]
• Autosport Live: 15:51 Alonso goes green in the first two sectors but his lap unravels in the third and a 1m24.094s is comfortably slower than his today best.

On Day three just before Alonso did his 1.21.8 he did a 22.1 - I saw a tweet saying that on this lap he did two purple sectors and then slowed down a bit in the third sector (although I can't find the actual tweet now).



Ferrari are genuinely fast, and if you want more evidence have a read of this: http://bbs.hupu.com/5132678.html

I seriously doubt that Alonso was deliberately slowing in the final sector..there's no point in doing that..
I still believe Ferrari struggles in slow corners which seems to be a ferrari problem since 2011..

[scuderiafan]

I seriously doubt that Alonso was deliberately slowing in the final sector..there's no point in doing that..
I still believe Ferrari struggles in slow corners which seems to be a ferrari problem since 2011..

Observers said Ferrari was good in the slow chicane in Barca.

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

I'd be very surprised if one of the updates doesn't feature a redesign of the side pod area, by that I mean the area just below the air intake. It's been the same for a couple of years and when you compare that area to the likes of Red Bull or McLaren, it looks to induce a lot of drag.

[Massimo]

I seriously doubt that Alonso was deliberately slowing in the final sector..there's no point in doing that..
I still believe Ferrari struggles in slow corners which seems to be a ferrari problem since 2011..

Of Course there's point in doing that, no topteam reveal their true pace. Last year Red Bull only ran their B-spec the final two days of testing.
Your assumption that Ferrari is still struggling in slow corners isn't backed up by the facts, first of all this didn't seem to bother him when he did his 1:21.875 sec. we can assume he did this time with not much fuel onboard, so that would make the problem (lack of traction) even bigger, yet it didn't, remember last year when the F2012 had good traction at the beginning of the race, with a full a tank, when the fuel started to dissapear, so did the traction.

Second, take a look at the best sector times from Barcelona testing:

Sector 1: 22.745 – Romain Grosjean
Sector 2: 30.747 – Fernando Alonso
Sector 3: 28.203 – Nico Hulkenberg

Best Possible Laptime: 1:21:695s, so Alonso was about 1.8 tenth away from the perfect lap, and had the best time in sector two, now look at the layout of the circuit



Apart from the chicane (turn 14,15) they're almost identical, for instance turn 5 & 10, turn 4 & 12, turn 9 & 16, there's not much difference between those turns, so why wasn't Alonso fast there also?
I think that Alonso lifted, if he didn't do that he would've set an even faster time than his 1:21:875, and all eyes would be on Ferrari.
They're all downplaying their cars, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull, in Melbourne all the covers come off, and Vettel may hope Newey has produced a car with a "glued to the tarmac rear", or the Ferrari's are going to be all over him.

[mark p]

I'd be very surprised if one of the updates doesn't feature a redesign of the side pod area, by that I mean the area just below the air intake. It's been the same for a couple of years and when you compare that area to the likes of Red Bull or McLaren, it looks to induce a lot of drag.

That is the compromise for the tightest coke bottle area. after this area the ferrari pods turn in straight away for an overall larger floor area. they are being aggressive by believing they can get the air round this part to feed the huge area they have behind this point.

[bluesilhouettes]

I'd be very surprised if one of the updates doesn't feature a redesign of the side pod area, by that I mean the area just below the air intake. It's been the same for a couple of years and when you compare that area to the likes of Red Bull or McLaren, it looks to induce a lot of drag.

Same of what I am thinking.

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

That is the compromise for the tightest coke bottle area. after this area the ferrari pods turn in straight away for an overall larger floor area. they are being aggressive by believing they can get the air round this part to feed the huge area they have behind this point.

It is aggressive indeed but I fail to see how they can take advantage of the tighter coke bottle if they can't direct the air there in the first place. I just think that the way the side pod is designed it obstructs a lot of air from reaching the rear. I think this is one area where McLaren and Red Bull are successful and we are not. What are you thoughts on this?

[Rob]

It is aggressive indeed but I fail to see how they can take advantage of the tighter coke bottle if they can't direct the air there in the first place. I just think that the way the side pod is designed it obstructs a lot of air from reaching the rear. I think this is one area where McLaren and Red Bull are successful and we are not. What are you thoughts on this?

Ours may not be Mclaren RBR'esque sidepod front profiles, but what the team have done over the winter is improve rear traction and rear D/F. Last year we struggled, plus Felipe saying it alot more stable and better traction. The car we finished with in Brazil was good, we have just carried on with that and made it better. Dont forget, in Brazil we were fast, both drivers on podium. The tighter coke bottle effect helps with air getting to difusser better and the air coming over the top of the sidepods meeting the exhaust gases. It all helps rear D/F.

[anakin]

Ours may not be Mclaren RBR'esque sidepod front profiles, but what the team have done over the winter is improve rear traction and rear D/F. Last year we struggled, plus Felipe saying it alot more stable and better traction. The car we finished with in Brazil was good, we have just carried on with that and made it better. Dont forget, in Brazil we were fast, both drivers on podium. The tighter coke bottle effect helps with air getting to difusser better and the air coming over the top of the sidepods meeting the exhaust gases. It all helps rear D/F.

its pretty difficult to create a sleek side pods at the same time having tight rear end. its a compromise. redbull maybe was able to do that with smaller radiators. or perhaps the new sauber. but it will affect its reliability. i like what the engineers did at the F138. its not impossible to direct air to the rear end even with bulkier sidepods. i think what they want is to induce low pressure air from the top. look the F138 doesn't have air conditioners over their side pods. there is no need.thats what i think.

[mark p]

It is aggressive indeed but I fail to see how they can take advantage of the tighter coke bottle if they can't direct the air there in the first place. I just think that the way the side pod is designed it obstructs a lot of air from reaching the rear. I think this is one area where McLaren and Red Bull are successful and we are not. What are you thoughts on this?

That seems logical to the naked eye what we cannot see is how the airfliw interacts off the front wing under the noss with the spliter etc and with fine tuning they may be getting air to get round this sharo looking turn then getting a huge gain from the air in the cokebottle zone. we cannot see airflow with the naked eye and it doesnt always do what you think. so yes it looks harder for air to get round, it probably is but if they do it the gains must be greater than sacrificing the cokebottle fir more undercut. this maybe the cornerstone of their concept.

[anakin]

That seems logical to the naked eye what we cannot see is how the airfliw interacts off the front wing under the noss with the spliter etc and with fine tuning they may be getting air to get round this sharo looking turn then getting a huge gain from the air in the cokebottle zone. we cannot see airflow with the naked eye and it doesnt always do what you think. so yes it looks harder for air to get round, it probably is but if they do it the gains must be greater than sacrificing the cokebottle fir more undercut. this maybe the cornerstone of their concept.

+100

[Hornet]

its pretty difficult to create a sleek side pods at the same time having tight rear end. its a compromise. redbull maybe was able to do that with smaller radiators. or perhaps the new sauber. but it will affect its reliability. i like what the engineers did at the F138. its not impossible to direct air to the rear end even with bulkier sidepods. i think what they want is to induce low pressure air from the top. look the F138 doesn't have air conditioners over their side pods. there is no need.thats what i think.

There is nothing much in the rear section except for the transmission system. The gearbox, with mounting points for the wishbones on them. To minimize the rear section, teams have to make the gearbox smaller. Williams went for the long gear box to achieve this (so that its thinner)

The radiator is always in the sidepods regardless of how its designed, so it doesn't affect the shape of the rear middle section.

[fratelliferrari]

Many thanks for giving that very clear explanation with the track layout Massimo

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

It's definitely an interesting subject and thank you to everyone who contributed. It's always nice to share technical knowledge

[mark p]

There is nothing much in the rear section except for the transmission system. The gearbox, with mounting points for the wishbones on them. To minimize the rear section, teams have to make the gearbox smaller. Williams went for the long gear box to achieve this (so that its thinner)

The radiator is always in the sidepods regardless of how its designed, so it doesn't affect the shape of the rear middle section.

Kers various electronics exhausts etc. ferrari have put more of this stuff to the front others have spread it alon a longer sidepod to allow for undercut at the front.

[scuderiafan]

Can you guys tell me what happened to the old 'red bull cheating' thread?

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

Can you guys tell me what happened to the old 'red bull cheating' thread?

Spill it out, what are they up to now?

[scuderiafan]

Spill it out, what are they up to now?

Was gonna post this in there, but can't seem to find it. I guess here is good enough.

Engine maps remain as 2012
Mapping setback for Renault

With the engine maps there have been troubles in the last year. The FIA ​​subsequently lodged firmly a reference software. Under the engine manufacturers, there were different views on whether the mapping values ​​also apply for 2013 as a base.
Do you remember Germany in the GP? Since the start of the Red Bull was Renault in the balance, because the FIA inspectors had discovered in the Renault V8 software that was suspicious. At full throttle, up to 35 percent torque were load controlled. In principle, this was nothing more than a kick-down kind of traction control. By retarded ignition were even then exhaust gases for aerodynamics produced if the driver was on gas. Not as much as in 2011, but still limited.

Red Bull as a loophole was discovered in the regulations. The restrictions for the ignition timing and the injection of gasoline applied to all states - not only to the full throttle position. Renault engineer Remi Taffin not understand to this day the excitement: "It was totally overrated We followed the rules and still do not understand why that should suddenly be illegal.."

New engine rules since August 2012
The governing body were of the opinion that Red Bull and Renault were also shot with this engine program on the target. Because it does not correspond to the spirit of the regulations. Therefore, on 24 August 2012 sent the technical directive No.19 to all teams, the creative mapping adjustments put a stop to.

From 6,000 rpm to full throttle, the firing angle must not exceed 2.5 percent, and the torque curve is not more than two per cent differ from a reference software. For this benchmark, the engine manufacturers were allowed to search for maps, which they had used for one of the first four races of the 2012 season.

Renault believed to reboot
It was not clear what scale should apply for 2013. Remains the same or may reference software the team early in the season to set a new foundation? Then Red Bull could theoretically retrieve the Hockenheim-field is possible. The statements on this were totally opposite.

Ferrari engine boss Luca Marmorini said: "Everything remains the same apply the 2012 regulations is therefore on the effect of the exhaust for the aerodynamics change anything..." Taffin colleague of Renault was of an entirely different opinion: "For us it's all over again we put in Melbourne set a new benchmark, the directive referred exclusively to the last year..."

FIA decides: 2012-rule remains valid
On request at the FIA ​​states that it applies the Technical Directive No.19 of 2012. Renault has to start thinking so. Apparently the French were suspicious and made inquiries in the evening of the third day of testing even the FIA ​​inspectors in Barcelona. The answer will not like it. It is expected that Renault has already tested new maps to optimize the exhaust effect on the aerodynamics. You can now pack up.

Mercedes team boss Ross Brawn understands that at Red Bull and Lotus pays no joy. "Their exhaust solution was probably designed so that one of the maps has more freedom. Exhaust solution of Red Bull and Lotus is in the towing of motor critical because as the exhaust blows less and less can contribute to the pressure, which means that you more dependent on the bottleneck. "

"The bottleneck, however, is at Red Bull and Lotus because of the ramp behind the tailpipes less pronounced. Therefore, this exhaust variant on corner entry it at a disadvantage compared to the solution as it has invented McLaren and all are followed up on Red Bull and Lotus. may well be that you wanted to compensate for the problem by a clever engine management system. "

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...t-6667636.html

[Ferrari Man]

What s the dates for the final tests?

[DJMORIN]

Hello out there just throwing my two cents in here.I think one of the things we two look out for is the new front wing it all starts at the front of the car. We have a new wing guru from mclaren so we should see so unique. Solutions at the front

[mark p]

Hello out there just throwing my two cents in here.I think one of the things we two look out for is the new front wing it all starts at the front of the car. We have a new wing guru from mclaren so we should see so unique. Solutions at the front

I agree. still do not expect night and day difference as philosophy is the same to get air round the front sidepods so there is a best way to do this so doubt what they tried last year is completly wrong will just need fine tuning.