Ferrari admits importance of securing second 2014 F1 engine customer

[vcs316]

Ferrari has admitted that it is important to have a third team running its engine when the new 1.6-litre turbocharged V6 engines are introduced next year.

It is likely to continue its alliance with Sauber next year, even though a deal has not been done, but Scuderia Toro Rosso is planning to switch to Renault.

Ferrari is known to have held talks with Force India about a possible deal, although the Silverstone squad could also continue with Mercedes engines.

The engine supply deal negotiations are related to the team's driver decision, with both Ferrari-contracted Jules Bianchi and former Force India driver Adrian Sutil, whose nationality would suit Mercedes, in contention and testing at Barcelona this week.

With engine mileage likely to be at a premium next year despite plans to allow an early V6 track test this year, Ferrari risks being at a disadvantage if it doesn't secure at least two customer teams.

"Customer teams are a very important opportunity for an engine supplier," said Ferrari's head of engines Luca Marmorini when asked by AUTOSPORT how important it was to have a second customer team when the new power units come in.

"First of all, we can test more engines and now we can't test during the season, we can collect much wider data.

"It's also important to have a reference with cars using the same engine and have a good relative pace.

"So Ferrari is strongly committed to supplying a good engine to customer teams."

Marmorini added that the relationship with Toro Rosso is still good and that he is still open to continuing the supply deal.

Toro Rosso has used Ferrari engines since 2007, when it took over the supply run by sister team Red Bull a year before.

"I don't know if Toro Rosso will be with us next year," said Marmorini.

"We are still working very well with them now.

"They're an important contribution to Ferrari engine development, but I also think we are giving them a competitive engine."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105653?

[Hornet]

Looks like testing limit will be a real handicap this time, with the first major engine change since testing limit came into effect.


Maybe they should allow Ferrari to run extra cars just to make things fair.

[bluesilhouettes]

I wonder what leads to this situation ? Price or the engine specs or what else ???

[wisepie]

Maybe we should have saved HRT, now that we have such a big Spanish presence in the team. We don't want Toro Rosso having inside info to pass on to Red Bull, but saying that, we'll need the mileage on the new engine to aid reliability and development as well as the ability to compare performance with other teams using our engine. Force India with Jules Bianchi might make sense, though, but Force India also have technical collaboration with Mclaren.....nothing's straightforward!

[Jas]

Ferrari 2104 turbo engine development is quite advanced

21 February, 2013


The turbocharger fitted to the Ferrari 126CK in 1981

Ferrari have revealed that their 2014 trube engine is an advanced state of development with a team dedicated to the project at their Maranello headquraters.

The team’s head of engines and electronics, Luca Marmorini said, “We have a team working on 2014 engines and while we cannot say everything is already set in stone, it’s true to say that the development phase is already quite advanced. It’s just over a year that we’ve had an engine on the dyno. It’s definitely interesting from a technical point of view but there is still a lot of development work to be carried out.”

He added, “It’s a very tight deadline, but we have got an intensive development programme in place and we hope to have a power train that delivers good performance with reliability right from the start of the 2014 season.”

Marmorini explained that the current format engine is very different to the 1000 bhp power plants of the previous F1 turbo era, asying it was “completely different type to the one we saw back in the Eighties.”

As for testing the Ferrari engine guru said, “At the moment, no ruling has been put in place which would allow us to test the new type of engines outside the usual testing limitations. And of course, with the rule change, this new engine will be expected to complete almost double the mileage of the current ones and getting it to run reliably will be a very big task.”

[Hornet]

I wonder what leads to this situation ? Price or the engine specs or what else ???

Luca Marmorini said that the more important factor is to be able to have more cars testing our engine if we can have more customers.

Red Bull would probably rather use Torro Rosso to help develop the Renault engine even if its more expensive than Ferrari's engine.

[voiko]

I hope they leave us and we pwn them on the track and everyone will come begging! Ferrari are great at the engine game, lets not forget that!

[ferrari4life]

I hope they leave us and we pwn them on the track and everyone will come begging! Ferrari are great at the engine game, lets not forget that!

I dont know if they are.. I would say Mercedes is way ahead of us but thats just me.

[Jas]

I dont know if they are.. I would say Mercedes is way ahead of us but thats just me.

same here, i just have a funny feeling that mercades and renault were so much more up for the change they have invested and started earlier...like i said this is a feeling and opinion! I soooo hope im wrong!

[Massimo]

Mercedes ahead of us, based on what? Mercedes never used to build their own engines, they where made for Mercedes by Ilmor, and although they're great engines, it's not the same as the engine building history Ferrari has.
Ilmor were independent engine builders, Daimler acquired 25%, then 50% and finally the whole thing, during this, the company was re branded about 4 times, and although Daimler were the owners, within the company there was some sort of special project team, which was basically where the magic happened, where the previous Ilmor owners Illien and Morgan were in charge.
After getting a big Honda/indy engine deal, they split away from Daimler, to become independent engine builders again, under the name Ilmor (once again), and don't forget, a lot of know how was lost then for Daimler, Illien and Morgan are not easy to replace, and it didn't do the continuity much good either.

Engine building has always been Ferrari's core business, every possible engine you can think of, Ferrari have build it.
And maybe he's a little low profile, but in Luca Marmorini we have one of the best engine builders there is, look at the work he has done at Toyota, he and his team build Toyota's first V10 engine in 10 months, and it didn't take long before he took over Toyota's complete engine operations as Technical director, to prepare for the switch to the V8. He incorporated the electronics, engine and chassis work, just like he is doing now at Ferrari for 2014.
I have full trust in Luca, our own engine wizard, so my money is on Ferrari, then Renault, i believe the hype around the Merc engine was created to keep the shareholders happy.

[ferrari4life]

I hope you are right. Ferrari have been seen to be caught napping in the past.. aka the whole wind tunnel.

[Hornet]

One important factor here, I think though I may be wrong, is that we must now not only introduce a strong engine but also develop it within the limitations of limited testing. In the past, we can bolt on new engines during one of the many testing we do all the time. If we need to test 10 units, we can do it if we wanted to.

Now we have limited mileage and unlike aero testing, the limit is not the same for everyone. The engine supplier with more customer gets to test more engine units, while we will have lesser testing done simply because lesser teams are running our engines. This is what's bugging me.

[Massimo]

I hope you are right. Ferrari have been seen to be caught napping in the past.. aka the whole wind tunnel.

That's aerodynamics, when was the last time Ferrari had a bad engine?

[scuderiafan]

I hope you are right. Ferrari have been seen to be caught napping in the past.. aka the whole wind tunnel.

Mercedes engine was the one with most fails in 2012. And Button fuel pump failure in Jerez was a Mercedes part. Mercedes is hype. Renault have more fuel efficient but less powerful engines and Ferrari's engines are just as powerful, but more reliable. I heard they may have higher fuel consumption though.

At least this is what I think.

[Salvador Dali]

The only clue I got was from Nico Hulkenberg who drove a Mercedes and a Ferrari engined car. The difference he sees in engine power is:

"Asked to nominate the differences, the 25-year-old said: “Mercedes has the most power at the top, but the Ferrari is very good in the mid range."

Link: http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/02/06/me...ys-hulkenberg/

Edit: Renault's engine chief Jean-Michel Jalinier has said, when asked about the number of engine's they would / should supply for 2014: "To me, five [teams] should be really a max and, if we go back from four to three, I will be happy. We were very comfortable with three [teams] in terms of assistance and doing our job properly."

So to me the whole story on how Ferrari is desperate to get new teams to sign up for our engine supply for 2014 a non story. We are just looking to have 3 teams, so just to replace TR. That is enough for a propper R&D. The FI and JB link is just a bonus for all involved, if it comes to a deal.

IMHO

[scuderiafan]

It is a shame FI didn't work out. Well, don't cry if it fails FI

Now, as a second customer, McLaren won't be bad. their relationship with Mercedes is running thin and I don't think Renault will be capable with 5 teams and Cosworth won't be the most competitive option, so come on chrome boys

Vodafone McLaren Ferrari

[hudson77]

indeed

[Jose Lorca]

Farce India have made a huge mistake. Anyway I'm sure we'll get at least one new customer for next year - from what's been reported, the engine prices for next year are:

Mercedes - 21m
Renault -20m
Ferrari - 17m

Marussia are looking for a new engine supplier so I can see them making the right decision (ie switching to superior Ferrari power).

[Bubbles]

I hope they leave us and we pwn them on the track and everyone will come begging! Ferrari are great at the engine game, lets not forget that!

That's right. The 458 Italia engine won Engine of the Year twice. Ferrari is nothing if not a pro engine developer.

[shamim179]

Despite Chilton's funding, Marussia is still a budget team. It only seems logical they will go for the Ferrari engine. It would be nice to see another team in red!

[Salvador Dali]

I have just read a story on http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de that is talking up the McLaren / Honda engine deal. They say it is still unclear if they (Honda) can make 2014 or will they go for 2015 season.

But for me the important part is that they claim that Mercedes has a deal with Force India (+ it's works team ofc), while McLaren does not. I know there was speculations but from what I remember McLaren officialy confirmed (a few times last year) that they are going with Mercedes. There are still open topics ($$$) about next year's engines deals and the time is running out.

So is McLaren just trying to get a better deal or are they realy looking to part ways with Mercedes? Or is this whole story just made up?

[Jas]

Well Force India have just signed an extension for their engines with Mercades :(

[mirafiori]

I dont know if they are.. I would say Mercedes is way ahead of us but thats just me.

Ferrari is the most reliable engine over the last 15 years, its engine helps us to start well of the grid, mid range is very good, top end is very good, what more do you want.

[Jose Lorca]

Well Force India have just signed an extension for their engines with Mercades :(

As soon as they signed Sutil this was inevitable. This was what was being reported before Sutil got the seat:

Schmidt claims Mercedes is charging about EUR 21 million for its V6, while Ferrari is asking only 17 million.

But a rumour in the Barcelona paddock on Tuesday is that Mercedes could be throwing in a gearbox deal as well, which could play in German Sutil's favour.

The 30-year-old, however, acknowledged that it's not a straight fight, as were Williams' 'shootouts' between Jenson Button and Bruno Junquiera in 2000, or Nick Heidfeld and Antonio Pizzonia in 2005.

"There's a little bit of business behind it," said Sutil, alluding to his links with Mercedes and Bianchi's to Ferrari, regarding Sahara Force India's eventual choice of V6 engine supplier.

He admitted to F1's official website: "My relationship with Mercedes has always been good and hopefully they are heavily interested in having me in the car this season."

So this is no surprise:

Under the arrangement Force India will receive complete power units including engine and Energy Recovery System, plus transmission and ancillary systems, from Mercedes. These are currently supplied to them by McLaren.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/03/2...cedes-engines/

It's a shame that Force India chose an inferior driver, Medion money and an overhyped engine but I'd like to think Vijay will pay for his greed in 2014 when the Ferrari engine dominates.

[Greig]

Marussia will have our engines.

[Jas]

I really really hope that our engines are better than the mercades ones...........they are counting on thi sengine like no tomorrow to move them up the grid and be their knight in shinig armour

Also the fact that everyone has somehow persumed that mercades will be the best! which really really annoys me, maybe they have a bigger engine department than ours?!?!

[Jose Lorca]

Marussia to use Ferrari or Mercedes power in 2014

Mar.29 (GMM) Marussia chief executive Andy Webb has admitted the team will be powered either by Ferrari or Mercedes engines in 2014.

Cosworth, whose only customer in F1 this year is the Banbury-based team, is expected to leave the sport before the start of the new turbo V6 era.

So with Renault saying recently it is in talks with Toro Rosso but does not want any more customers, Marussia's choice appears to be between Ferrari and Mercedes.

"It's obvious," said Webb, "that with the departure of Cosworth then we can choose between Ferrari and Mercedes.

"We'll talk with both," he told Russia's Championat.

"It is clear that the price will be an important factor, because the cost will be significantly higher than the current engines," added Webb.

"And we need to make sure we choose the right partner. I hope to be able to announce our decision in the next four weeks."

It is believed that 2013 Marussia driver Jules Bianchi's connections with Ferrari make the Italian marque the favourite for the deal.

Webb admitted that the final decision should be made as soon as possible.

"The 2014 car is already in the wind tunnel," he said.

"We have already seen a lot of data on the requirements for the engines in 2014," Webb explained. "We have not chosen a partner yet, but we have a lot of information.

"Of course, a quick decision on the engine would help. Preferably by the end of April."

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ma...power-in-2014/

[Jose Lorca]

Pat Symonds on 2014 engines: "While we have spoken to all of them, I think we are rapidly heading in the direction of Ferrari"

[Massimo]

Pat Symonds on 2014 engines: "While we have spoken to all of them, I think we are rapidly heading in the direction of Ferrari"

That's no surprise, why do you think Marussia, as a backmarker team, is playing hardball with Bernie about the Concorde agreement?
To me it's obvious they have the support from Ferrari, in the form of a driver, money, engine and gearbox deal, and if there is one team that Bernie doesn't mess with, it's Ferrari

[wisepie]

This sounds promising for a second-string Ferrari outfit so that we can sever any ties with Red Bull/Toro Rosso and avoid them getting info on the new turbo power unit. Would be good for Bianchi too.