Alonso and Hamilton, when the driver still makes the difference.

[Greig]

Greig, you have to get in touch with your server company, i keep getting redirected to www.infiniti-redbullracing.com/

Sorry about that, mind you I was a Renault fan when I was on here telling how Alonso was good enough for Ferrari so used to that sort of retort

As I said Alonso was run into the ground on here, just cause he was beating us, then it was Lewis, now it's Seb....I think we can see the pattern

[AfterLife]

Vettel no doubt has developed a ruthless streak but you have to have that to survive at the top. Frank Williams once said "F1 drivers are ruthless ******* because they have to be", so it comes with the territory. The other drivers don't have to respect him, as long as they fear him and by fear him I don't mean fear he will crash them, but fear that he is willing to make those brave moves. That alone can keep them guessing and can force mistakes.

I would take Alonso or Hamilton over Seb if I had a choice because I think they are both inherently faster, but if I had to settle for Seb I wouldn't cry about it. I'd take him over the rest of them.

Those brave moves sometimes cause an horrible accident. A great driver should have the ability to distinguish brave move from dangerous move. I don't want to be rude but when Vettel overtakes, it reminds me of a dog running so fast to get a bonnet in the air at any cost.

[FerrariIce]

I don't like the kid and that may cloud my judgement. I will say he is a good racer and his statistics are unbelievable but he has never been in a bad car. Alonso, unfortunately spent many years of his career in under-performing machinery. He's had the best car on the grid once, 2005. And his 2006 championship against our beloved Ferrari team and the greatest driver of all time might be one of the greatest seasons a driver has ever had. Has Sebastian ever done something like that?

but you also have to consider a few things, Alonso had the dominant car in 2005-2006 it was the second fastest or considered the fastest perhaps and the most reliable,his WDC title was mainly down to his car being the most reliable and Kimi and Schumis unreliability woes,in 2007 the Macca was better than our car it was the fastest in Dry and the best inmWet conditions, our car was not as friendly in the wet as the Mclaren, and the mclaren was more reliable than our car.

When Schumi move to Ferrari from Bennetton correct me if im wrong but it took him 5 years to win WDC again if im not mistaken, in 2004 when we have the best car Schumi was and is perfect but in 2005 when Mclaren and Renault step up Schumi only won once because All seven Michelin teams withdrew after the formation lap on tyre-related safety grounds, but when the car was good again in 2006 he started back in winning ways so you get the trend.In 2010 he struggled to adapt to a new car and in 2011-2012 he struggled once again to the pirelli tires, MS might be technically gifted but he may not adapt as quickly as other drivers do. When Vettel,kimi and alonso move to other teams it took them a short time to get back to winning ways.

sure you can say Vettels success is mostly down to the car, but isnt that the case in F1? This isnt karting where talent and raw speed is the biggest factor, in formula 1 its 70% car and 30% driver,a driver can only do so much you also need the tools to win. I admit that Vettel might not be as talented as kimi,fernando, and lewis but all four of them always gets the best out of the car, Vettels technical ability is one of the best or perhaps the best in the grid and Newey cant just design a car without a drivers input that would be stupid. one of the reasons why Vettel was so dominant in 2011 because of the Exhaust blow diffuser that newey design, Vettel quickly learn and adapt his driving style to suit the EBD same story in 2012 when newey made upgrades during late in the season. FYI i am a Ferrari fan and a kimi,fernando,lewis and a vettel fan

[FA fan]

Seb is a great driver, like it or not and putting him down just makes no sense to me. He has won 3 titles on the trot yet you say he still has to show he can push a team forward? makes no sense to me either.

It's like Seb is the new Alonso on here (pre 2010), dismissed and put down, and only wins cause of the car.

Well Greig I remember you saying last year that Seb deserved one title at best! Did you not?

[Massimo]

Sorry about that, mind you I was a Renault fan when I was on here telling how Alonso was good enough for Ferrari so used to that sort of retort

As I said Alonso was run into the ground on here, just cause he was beating us, then it was Lewis, now it's Seb....I think we can see the pattern

Hmm..that sounds familiar, i was at Monza in 2006 in a Ferrari shirt and a Renault team spirit/telefonica cap, my friends looked like they would never forgive me

[Greig]

Well Greig I remember you saying last year that Seb deserved one title at best! Did you not?

Yep, not sure how that makes him a less driver? I am not saying he is the greatest ever.

[FA fan]

Yep, not sure how that makes him a less driver? I am not saying he is the greatest ever.

Never meant that he is an average driver,cuz IMO he is not! Just thought you had a different opinion last year to this year

[Greig]

Never meant that he is an average driver,cuz IMO he is not! Just thought you had a different opinion last year to this year

Not really, I don't really judge a driver on titles won or not won.

[FA fan]

Not really, I don't really judge a driver on titles won or not won.

Well sometimes if someone is not bias,it's difficult to judge is it just the car which has the higher percentage for sebs winning or the other way around!! I mean clearly if you just compare him to his team mate,whos not that bad,there is no comparison!! But how many failures did mark have on his car,compared to seb! But for me he has to qualify fourth row and win to prove it!!

[FerrariIce]

Well sometimes if someone is not bias,it's difficult to judge is it just the car which has the higher percentage for sebs winning or the other way around!! I mean clearly if you just compare him to his team mate,whos not that bad,there is no comparison!! But how many failures did mark have on his car,compared to seb! But for me he has to qualify fourth row and win to prove it!!

most of Lewis wins in 2012 were him being on the front row i dont see anyone criticizing him about it.Funny how we support Schumi in his dominant years just because he was riding a Ferrari but other fans hated him for that, but what Vettel is doing at the moment is the same story as Schumacher's, only difference is Schumacher was riding a Red Horse while Vettel is riding a Red Bull lol.

[FA fan]

most of Lewis wins in 2012 were him being on the front row i dont see anyone criticizing him about it.Funny how we support Schumi in his dominant years just because he was riding a Ferrari but other fans hated him for that, but what Vettel is doing at the moment is the same story as Schumacher's, only difference is Schumacher was riding a Red Horse while Vettel is riding a Red Bull lol.

I am not a schumi fan,never was!! And schumi did start from way behind and did win!! Which vettel has not done so far!! And i did not talk about Hamilton!!

[FerrariIce]

I am not a schumi fan,never was!! And schumi did start from way behind and did win!! Which vettel has not done so far!! And i did not talk about Hamilton!!

Maybe the reason why Vettel has not won from way behind because the circumstance has'nt arrived yet,its obvious RBR and maybe him has a great one lap pace which makes it easier for him to get into the front row grid.Winning from way behind is always a combination of a fast car and luck (Raikkonen's win in Japan 2005,Button's win in Canada 2011 and Fernando's win in Valencia 2012),im sure the guy is capable of winning in the 4th,5th,6th row of the grid just like any great driver will do if those 2 factors are into play.

[vae32]

I also think Fernando and Lewis a more capable of driving around any trouble they have with the car.

And the fact that i simply don't like Vettel might cloud my judgement slightly, Vettel is the personification of the Playstation generation, skinny, nerdy, young and a Justin Bieber haircut, that's why he appeals to young people in general and certainly young F1 fans, they can identify with him.
He has an adolescent image, where James Hunt was the personification of sex and coolness, Nigel Mansell hard and obdurate, Ayrton Senna carried the whole of South America on his shoulders and represented hope for millions.

The reality in F1 racing nowadays is that a 19 year old can climb into an F1 car and immediately be fast, a button to change gear, a button to overtake, a button to change the brakes, a button to drink.....Playstation generation, they have been doing that since they were 5 years old with all those little buttons.
Where are the days of real men with moustaches and beards, who had to be of a certain age to be able to cope mentally and physically with life in Formula 1.
The constant threat of dead or serious injury separated the men from the boys, some just didn't have the b*lls to go as fast as they wanted.
physically it was far more demanding to, constantly using both feet to push the clutch, brake and accelerator, turning the car without power steering or traction control.
In some decades with more than a 1000 hp. under the hood, and death was always looking over their shoulder, waiting for his chance.
Gone are the days...

Is that bad, not necessarily, the way the cars change the drivers change also. Do i miss it? Yes, i miss seeing real men in the cars, in stead of children, it almost annoys me that a 19 year old kid with one hand on the steering wheel and one hand on the energy drink button, with the accelerator pushed down, can take a high speed corner without a care in the world.
That's why i think Mark Webber and Fernando Alonso for instance are so popular with older F1 fans, journalists and F1 team bosses, they still have this aura of the good old days, the last men standing.
No, in my opinion, Vettel has a long way to go.

Love your comment's. straight from the heart...100% percent agree

[vae32]

Sebastian Vettel always wants to win at any costs. This personality is something that we have seen it everytime especially in 2013 Bahrain GP his first overtake on Fernando was risky and Fernando gave him space to let that risky overtaking to end without crashing.
Having respect to the other drivers is something that you can't find in Sebastian Vettel yet. Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna hadn't that respect either. In my opinion having respect to the other drivers is the most necessary talent that every great driver should have.

Let's just don't forget he's on new tyre's to Alo used, he should take his position back Alo ran wide...rosberg's tyre's gone off nothing risky about that also easy prey for Alo aswell, no big deal... i would love to see himself handle the pressure from Alo all over the back of his car if the drs had not fail, but it did not happen, my loss. But i respect your opinion tho.

[vae32]

Sorry about that, mind you I was a Renault fan when I was on here telling how Alonso was good enough for Ferrari so used to that sort of retort

As I said Alonso was run into the ground on here, just cause he was beating us, then it was Lewis, now it's Seb....I think we can see the pattern

Very good point Graig...but there is a big performance gap on the year's when vettel start winning, big difference with Alo and MS time's where car performance was nearly close. And i hope this season will finally answer some of our question's about how good vettel is with nearly or close in performance car's.

[brembo man]

Not so great a car, no help from a wing man, Kimi and Alonso are the best of the lot. Forget the chin and Vettel.

[FA fan]

Maybe the reason why Vettel has not won from way behind because the circumstance has'nt arrived yet,its obvious RBR and maybe him has a great one lap pace which makes it easier for him to get into the front row grid.Winning from way behind is always a combination of a fast car and luck (Raikkonen's win in Japan 2005,Button's win in Canada 2011 and Fernando's win in Valencia 2012),im sure the guy is capable of winning in the 4th,5th,6th row of the grid just like any great driver will do if those 2 factors are into play.

Well he qualified many times 3rd and fourth row,never won a race from there,although we all know many times he had the fastest car,probably by 0.5 sec a lap,and still didn't manage to win!! If you read my post earlier,I never said he was a mediocre or average driver,he's a good driver,that maybe will peak to be a great driver,just not there yet..but I do respect your opinion

[Nova]

All of this proves a point...you not only have to be a pretty good driver to win
a WDC..you also need a very good car. Mabey a better car than you are a driver.

[izybluffen]

TBH, I don't like Bieber either. I think he is overrated.
I grew up watching Senna and researched the likes of Clark, Gilles, Stewart and Fangio and then witnessed the Schumi years. I understand talent, raw speed and skill.
To me, we have not yet seen the next superstar with god-like talents.
Bieber only does well with the best car on the day thanks to Newey. When things are not right he does not win.
He has not gone through the "after WDC" with a bad car to truly prove himself. Which has been proven in the RB anyway.
Senna and Schumi made their mark before they got the best car- you can see talent a mile away - Bieber had a Newey car with a Ferrari engine that was better than the RB and people have mentioned this- that the STR was awesome in the wet but not the fact that all the front runners got caught out in Q2 and ended up down the field. Bieber got the Monza pole and win handed to him on a silver platter. When Senna and Schumi did it it was fair and square against the competition.
They also won in the dry with their crap cars which proves skill. Remember the drives they both did after their WDC. I remember 1996 when the Ferrari was crap and Schumi put on epic races and won and Senna in the Ford Macca.
Bieber is no where near this level and never will be.
No driver these days has that talent. The closest is Alonso.
He might not be the best in every area, but overall he is the best which makes him the best driver with no weaknesses.
Hammi might be the fastest but lacks in other areas.
Bieber is only good with best car on the day.
People talk about Webber with Vettel, but it was all even the first half of 2010. Mark actually destroyed Seb in Spain and Monaco. But come half way through the year the off throttle diffuser came in and Seb had the upper hand until now. All R&D goes Biebers way which disadvantages Mark, aswell as the Pirelli's which is his own problem. But if you look at it then when all things are even then Webber beats Vettel !
Which is why if you put Alonso, Hammi or Kimi in the same car then Bieber would get a spanking.
Real talent shows through without the likes of Newey, without him, Bieber is nothing. A good driver, but not great.
Hey, Gilles and Moss were great but htey nevr won a WDC, which makes Bieber extremely lucky.

Alonso WDC in 2013 !!! Ferrari WCC 2013 !!!

[Senna4Ever]

Seb is a great driver, like it or not and putting him down just makes no sense to me. He has won 3 titles on the trot yet you say he still has to show he can push a team forward? makes no sense to me either.

It's like Seb is the new Alonso on here (pre 2010), dismissed and put down, and only wins cause of the car.

Sorry Sir, but I don't get the point why you're quoting me in when it is about putting Vettel down?
As I really don't have any idea where you can find this in my posting.

I said: there are many drivers who have won a single race ... as you mentioned the victory of Vettel in Monza in ToroRosso
And I also said that this drive in Monza was maybe one of best (or even the best) in his career ... taking into account the ToroRosso car ... which means I dignify his drive there ... and I didn't say anything about luck.
Would you have expected that Vettel will become a 3WDC (in a row) back after his first win?
Or would you have expected that Vettel will become that successful as you have noticed him driving a ToroRosso? (despite of the fact that he is very talented ... which are many but non of them become a 3 time WDC)

I never said that he is not a good driver in my posting, or I'm just bad in english ... ?!

The only thing is that I doubt that he well be also that continuously successful with a 'bad' car.
If the time will come where he shows he can I will change my mind about that.

And Olivier Panis in Monaco
and Johnny Herbert at the Nürburg Ring (Grand Prix of Europe)

of course he is now 3times WDC but I don't think that anyone honestly thought about that for Vettel as he won Monza then
His overall Toro Rosso performance wasn't that glimmering but this day was of course a big highlight an maybe (in my opinion) his best drive ever according to the car's skills.

and for now it is like it is ... time will show if he is really the great man and push a team forward or not.
Lets see what come .. when Vettel changes the team and no more Marko or Newey again ... maybe I've to change my opinion ... but thats all in the future ...

But as you calling him "Seb" maybe I hurt some personal relationship ... which wasn't my intention.

And finally: all the men which are in F1 are great drivers in my opinion - otherwise they wouldn't be there

[Greig]

But as you calling him "Seb" maybe I hurt some personal relationship ... which wasn't my intention.

Childish comment to make really.

I don't think any driver can be winning titles in a bad car as you seem to think will prove something about Seb or Sebastian or Vettel whichever name does not cause you concern. As I said he has won 3 titles in a row and is once again leading the way so I am not sure how you can even question if he can push a team forward, they are at the very top and Seb or Sebastian or Vettel is a very big part of that success.

[NickEice]

I am 26 years old. I remember watching F1 with my grandpa in the late 90's during Hakkinen's two championship years and I remember how much I hated him lol. I would say I started really following F1 though around the time of Alonso's 2 championships. Since in the USA as a young boy your parents don't really appreciate you staying up until 2am. Especially during the school year!! So my first hand F1 knowledge is limited to the last decade or so. I have researched and watched season reviews and read up on past championships, but there is no replacement for watching every race first hand.

I preface my comment this way to ask the knowledgeable forum two questions.

1) Which WDC do you think won the championship in the least competitive car?
2) And, in your opinions, name the 5 greatest drivers of all time in order.

Perhaps this will deflect some of the animosity in this thread at the moment and change the path of discussion.

[FerrariIce]

I am 26 years old. I remember watching F1 with my grandpa in the late 90's during Hakkinen's two championship years and I remember how much I hated him lol. I would say I started really following F1 though around the time of Alonso's 2 championships. Since in the USA as a young boy your parents don't really appreciate you staying up until 2am. Especially during the school year!! So my first hand F1 knowledge is limited to the last decade or so. I have researched and watched season reviews and read up on past championships, but there is no replacement for watching every race first hand.

I preface my comment this way to ask the knowledgeable forum two questions.

1) Which WDC do you think won the championship in the least competitive car?
2) And, in your opinions, name the 5 greatest drivers of all time in order.

Perhaps this will deflect some of the animosity in this thread at the moment and change the path of discussion.

I think its stupid to name the 5 greatest drivers of all time in F1 because of different times,different cars,and different situations. Only way to know is if we put all of them in the same cars but a car that is into to their respective liking. Results never tell the whole story of a driver you have to look onto those results and make your judgement.I think as a fan you should'nt think about who are the greatest you just support your favoured team and driver.

[Nova]

No driver can be continously successful in a bad car...just ask about 1000 ex F1 drivers, n also many of the current.

[FerrariIce]

TBH, I don't like Bieber either. I think he is overrated.
I grew up watching Senna and researched the likes of Clark, Gilles, Stewart and Fangio and then witnessed the Schumi years. I understand talent, raw speed and skill.
To me, we have not yet seen the next superstar with god-like talents.
Bieber only does well with the best car on the day thanks to Newey. When things are not right he does not win.
He has not gone through the "after WDC" with a bad car to truly prove himself. Which has been proven in the RB anyway.
Senna and Schumi made their mark before they got the best car- you can see talent a mile away - Bieber had a Newey car with a Ferrari engine that was better than the RB and people have mentioned this- that the STR was awesome in the wet but not the fact that all the front runners got caught out in Q2 and ended up down the field. Bieber got the Monza pole and win handed to him on a silver platter. When Senna and Schumi did it it was fair and square against the competition.
They also won in the dry with their crap cars which proves skill. Remember the drives they both did after their WDC. I remember 1996 when the Ferrari was crap and Schumi put on epic races and won and Senna in the Ford Macca.
Bieber is no where near this level and never will be.
No driver these days has that talent. The closest is Alonso.
He might not be the best in every area, but overall he is the best which makes him the best driver with no weaknesses.
Hammi might be the fastest but lacks in other areas.
Bieber is only good with best car on the day.
People talk about Webber with Vettel, but it was all even the first half of 2010. Mark actually destroyed Seb in Spain and Monaco. But come half way through the year the off throttle diffuser came in and Seb had the upper hand until now. All R&D goes Biebers way which disadvantages Mark, aswell as the Pirelli's which is his own problem. But if you look at it then when all things are even then Webber beats Vettel !
Which is why if you put Alonso, Hammi or Kimi in the same car then Bieber would get a spanking.
Real talent shows through without the likes of Newey, without him, Bieber is nothing. A good driver, but not great.
Hey, Gilles and Moss were great but htey nevr won a WDC, which makes Bieber extremely lucky.

Alonso WDC in 2013 !!! Ferrari WCC 2013 !!!

You do realize that Seb is in the Schumi mould of a driver, where they won WDC because of having the clear dominant car in the field.I remember Schumi winning WDC in a bennetton when it had a TC advantage,and did it took 5 years for Schumi to win WDC in Ferrari? with those Bridgestone tires advantage?.So when MS move to mercedes why didnt he win?with all his technical ability that he was famous for and with the legendary Ross Brawn, and with all their budget why?.he was outclassed by Nico,maybe MS wasnt as good as a driver as we thought.

I seem to recall it took only a year for seb to be in contention for WDC in 2009 and then in 2010 he won WDC. Didnt Fernando won his WDC in 2005-2006 by having the clear dominant car? Kimi could have won in 2005 and Schumi could have won in 2006 if it werent for their unreliability woes. Didnt Seb won his WDC in 2012 by not having the fastest car? it was widely known that the Mclarens were the faster car in 2012.

Like i said in the earlier post If we were to put Kimi,Alonso,Hamilton,Button,Schumacher,Senna,Prost and all the other greats to RBR and be teammates with seb, Seb would beat them, clearly because seb knows the car and he knows how to drive and get the best out of it. He adapted his driving style to suit the EBD in 2011 while mark couldnt. Mark could have been WDC in 2010 but he was outshine by seb. And ps Alonso does have a weakness its obvious Fred cant handle a situation where he does not have a clear number 1 status and not in the position of running all the shots in the team

[Greig]

Like i said in the earlier post If we were to put Kimi,Alonso,Hamilton,Button,Schumacher,Senna,Prost and all the other greats to RBR and be teammates with seb, Seb would beat them, clearly because seb knows the car and he knows how to drive and get the best out of it. He adapted his driving style to suit the EBD in 2011 while mark couldnt. Mark could have been WDC in 2010 but he was outshine by seb. And ps Alonso does have a weakness its obvious Fred cant handle a situation where he does not have a clear number 1 status and not in the position of running all the shots in the team

Bold statement to make, and I would have to say it's wrong. No idea why you think Alonso has a problem with not being no1 as there has been nothing to suggest that is the case. If you mention McLaren then you would be wrong as Alonso stated he had no problem being treated as equal, but he was not treated equal at McLaren after their relationship broke down.

Why are you running down MS and Alonso to defend Vettel out of interest? Benetton had a TC advantage did they? ah that old anti-Schumi myth. How did Ferrari have a Bridgestone advantage when our main rivals ran with Michelin and had them tailored for their car just as much as Ferrari did with Bridgestone? Comparing Michael on his comeback kick to the Michael that lorded it up over the grid is just ridiculous as well.

McLaren might have been the fastest car in 2012 but to win first you have to finish. But if that is your point then the McLaren in 2005 was the fastest but broke down letting Alonso win the title, yet you claim he had a dominant car? In fact your whole post seems filled with holes. Alonso had as many technical problems as MS did in 2006 also, engine blow out at Monza, wheel falling off while leading at Hungary.

[Massimo]

I am 26 years old. I remember watching F1 with my grandpa in the late 90's during Hakkinen's two championship years and I remember how much I hated him lol. I would say I started really following F1 though around the time of Alonso's 2 championships. Since in the USA as a young boy your parents don't really appreciate you staying up until 2am. Especially during the school year!! So my first hand F1 knowledge is limited to the last decade or so. I have researched and watched season reviews and read up on past championships, but there is no replacement for watching every race first hand.

I preface my comment this way to ask the knowledgeable forum two questions.

1) Which WDC do you think won the championship in the least competitive car?
2) And, in your opinions, name the 5 greatest drivers of all time in order.

Perhaps this will deflect some of the animosity in this thread at the moment and change the path of discussion.

I would go for Keke Rosberg in 1982 with the Frank Williams 08, he had 1 win a couple of podiums i believe.
Is 5 personal favourite Ferrrari drivers ok?
1-Tazio Nuvolari
2-Alberto Ascari
3-Gilles Villeneuve
4-Jean Alesi
5-Fernando Alonso

[NickEice]

I think its stupid to name the 5 greatest drivers of all time in F1 because of different times,different cars,and different situations. Only way to know is if we put all of them in the same cars but a car that is into to their respective liking. Results never tell the whole story of a driver you have to look onto those results and make your judgement.I think as a fan you should'nt think about who are the greatest you just support your favoured team and driver.

Stupid? Wow.

Every sport has the all time greats. It's a list. People like lists. Jerry Rice in the NFL. Babe Ruth in MLB. Pele soccer. Jordan NBA. It's debatable and a fun exercise. Results don't tell the whole story, I agree, thus why I am not saying the list of 5 greatest drivers is Schumi, Prost, Senna, Alonso, Mansell based on wins. I am asking for opinions.

Why can't I ask who the greatest is? I can't inquire about the history of the sport? I have to put just worry about Ferrari? Rubbish. If my comment was stupid, your reply is moronic.

[NickEice]

I would go for Keke Rosberg in 1982 with the Frank Williams 08, he had 1 win a couple of podiums i believe.
Is 5 personal favourite Ferrrari drivers ok?
1-Tazio Nuvolari
2-Alberto Ascari
3-Gilles Villeneuve
4-Jean Alesi
5-Fernando Alonso

Very interesting Ferrari list, most notably the omission of Schumi and addition of Alesi. Again, this is why I posted because your list includes a guy with 1 win over someone with 91 wins. That is the fun of the question. And Keke Rosberg is an interesting pick. He won the championship in a car that was 4th in the WCC. Very interesting.

[NickEice]

Alonso had as many technical problems as MS did in 2006 also, engine blow out at Monza, wheel falling off while leading at Hungary.

I was going to point that out as well. Both had 2 retirements that year. But I think this guy is a troll so I didn't say anything.