Alonso and Hamilton, when the driver still makes the difference.

[Massimo]

Very interesting Ferrari list, most notably the omission of Schumi and addition of Alesi. Again, this is why I posted because your list includes a guy with 1 win over someone with 91 wins. That is the fun of the question. And Keke Rosberg is an interesting pick. He won the championship in a car that was 4th in the WCC. Very interesting.

Don't know if it's the least competitive car, but just remember that season for very sad reasons, and the Williams of Rosberg didn't look like a good car at all that year.
The list is very personal, Nuvolari and Ascari i don't have to explain, Ferrari history, the other drivers are personal favourites. Schumacher is of course a Ferrari legend, although i celebrated all his titles like a mad man, i was never a fan of the man himself.
I even wanted to put Giancarlo Fisichella on the list, i've met him a couple of times, he's a very nice person.

[Suzie]

Very interesting Ferrari list, most notably the omission of Schumi and addition of Alesi.

Alesi is loved by Ferrari fans though

[Greig]

My personal 5 would be (that I have seen race for us)

Schumacher, Irvine, Massa, Alonso and Alesi in no real order.

Gilles is my fav driver though but was before my time, something just mythical about Gilles

[FA fan]

My personal 5 would be (that I have seen race for us)

Schumacher, Irvine, Massa, Alonso and Alesi in no real order.

Gilles is my fav driver though but was before my time, something just mythical about Gilles

Well from the Ferrari drivers,I would say,schumi,Alonso,massa can't name 5:)

Gilles was before my time,but I have watched footages on YouTube,truly a very naturally talented driver,who was fearless,reminds me lot of Ayrton..

Here is a link on YouTube that I enjoyed watching about Him

http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_...eature=related

[vae32]

I think its stupid to name the 5 greatest drivers of all time in F1 because of different times,different cars,and different situations. Only way to know is if we put all of them in the same cars but a car that is into to their respective liking. Results never tell the whole story of a driver you have to look onto those results and make your judgement.I think as a fan you should'nt think about who are the greatest you just support your favoured team and driver.

I agree

[brembo man]

Everyone forgot to mention Rubens!! He drive for Ferrari when Todt, Ross, and the chin ran the team. #1 driver of all time for following orders. The results were great!

[vae32]

You do realize that Seb is in the Schumi mould of a driver, where they won WDC because of having the clear dominant car in the field.I remember Schumi winning WDC in a bennetton when it had a TC advantage,and did it took 5 years for Schumi to win WDC in Ferrari? with those Bridgestone tires advantage?.So when MS move to mercedes why didnt he win?with all his technical ability that he was famous for and with the legendary Ross Brawn, and with all their budget why?.he was outclassed by Nico,maybe MS wasnt as good as a driver as we thought.

I seem to recall it took only a year for seb to be in contention for WDC in 2009 and then in 2010 he won WDC. Didnt Fernando won his WDC in 2005-2006 by having the clear dominant car? Kimi could have won in 2005 and Schumi could have won in 2006 if it werent for their unreliability woes. Didnt Seb won his WDC in 2012 by not having the fastest car? it was widely known that the Mclarens were the faster car in 2012.

Like i said in the earlier post If we were to put Kimi,Alonso,Hamilton,Button,Schumacher,Senna,Prost and all the other greats to RBR and be teammates with seb, Seb would beat them, clearly because seb knows the car and he knows how to drive and get the best out of it. He adapted his driving style to suit the EBD in 2011 while mark couldnt. Mark could have been WDC in 2010 but he was outshine by seb. And ps Alonso does have a weakness its obvious Fred cant handle a situation where he does not have a clear number 1 status and not in the position of running all the shots in the team

I Agree with you, with the first paragraph... but then the rest..mate are you for real, who did vettel fight wheel to wheel with? oh i got 1, is it with webber...same performance car's, sorry that's all i can remember...he most of the time start's on pole and dissappear of in the horizon for anybody not to fight with him. You should go back and refamiliaries yourself with old f1's to remind yourself the real wheel to wheel fight's. This year we got a car to do exactly that, maybe then vettel may convince me..still respect your opinion tho.

[vae32]

Stupid? Wow.

Every sport has the all time greats. It's a list. People like lists. Jerry Rice in the NFL. Babe Ruth in MLB. Pele soccer. Jordan NBA. It's debatable and a fun exercise. Results don't tell the whole story, I agree, thus why I am not saying the list of 5 greatest drivers is Schumi, Prost, Senna, Alonso, Mansell based on wins. I am asking for opinions.

Why can't I ask who the greatest is? I can't inquire about the history of the sport? I have to put just worry about Ferrari? Rubbish. If my comment was stupid, your reply is moronic.

I'm sorry mate, I'm at fault too, i didn't agree with the STUPID pit, i only agree with the rest of his point's.

[FFFerrari]

Sorry guys, but on my top 5 list of all time greats, Fernando isn't anywhere near that list. Even top 10 is a stretch. And by the way, we are getting really far offtopic here.

[wisepie]

Ok, just to continue the off-topic theme and announce who I think are the best (or my favourite!) five Ferrari drivers during my lifetime.....Bandini, Gilles, Irv, Felipe and Fernando! You'll notice there's no Schumi or Rubens, Mansell or Prost, Arnoux or Pironi, brilliant though they were, they just didn't, for whatever reason, float my boat to the same extent. As for the worst car to win the WCC....any Red Bull or Mclaren.

[NickEice]

Ok, just to continue the off-topic theme and announce who I think are the best (or my favourite!) five Ferrari drivers during my lifetime.....Bandini, Gilles, Irv, Felipe and Fernando! You'll notice there's no Schumi or Rubens, Mansell or Prost, Arnoux or Pironi, brilliant though they were, they just didn't, for whatever reason, float my boat to the same extent. As for the worst car to win the WCC....any Red Bull or Mclaren.

I have a wonderful Bandini picture framed in my office at work. Picture of him I believe driving down into the Hotel Hairpin in Monaco 1967 laps before the tragedy.

And I think you took "worst" out of context!

And I don't think we are off topic that much. An argument ensued that has been diverted and we are talking about lists of "Drivers that made the difference".

[Nova]

How did top 5 drivers get in here? S ok, but mabey u should name them from each era.
Theres no way u can compare a current driver with any 1 of the drivers from each era.
Id even say 10 year increments are too much. Im mean really, how do u compare
a Bandini to Hill,to Lauda/Hunt, to Gilles to Mansell and etc. ?? Great idea for its own thread though.

[wisepie]

How did top 5 drivers get in here? S ok, but mabey u should name them from each era.
Theres no way u can compare a current driver with any 1 of the drivers from each era.
Id even say 10 year increments are too much. Im mean really, how do u compare
a Bandini to Hill,to Lauda/Hunt, to Gilles to Mansell and etc. ?? Great idea for its own thread though.

No you can't really compare drivers from different eras, it was just that I cheekily took the opportunity to list the drivers who captured my imagination the most through their drives for Ferrari in their respective eras. There are plenty of others who deserve a mention so maybe we should have yet another thread!!

[wisepie]

I have a wonderful Bandini picture framed in my office at work. Picture of him I believe driving down into the Hotel Hairpin in Monaco 1967 laps before the tragedy.

And I think you took "worst" out of context!

And I don't think we are off topic that much. An argument ensued that has been diverted and we are talking about lists of "Drivers that made the difference".

The Bandini tragedy was my initiation into the cruel world of F1, Nick, and kick-started a passion that will never leave me, sad really that it was based on that terrible event. As for 'worst' being taken out of context, I couldn't resist the opportunity to mock!

[brembo man]

I believe first and foremost what you can't compare is the cars, and tech. in general from early eras to now in F1. Year to year is almost imposible to compare. IMO the drivers are the only constant. All the top drivers from back then would still be top if they started and drove todays cars and todays tech. if that's where F1 was then. The same goes for todays drivers if they drove back then. Everyone in the same basic cars with the same rules that were. [Except using illegal traction control then or engine mapping today].

[scuderia03]

You do realize that Seb is in the Schumi mould of a driver, where they won WDC because of having the clear dominant car in the field.I remember Schumi winning WDC in a bennetton when it had a TC advantage,and did it took 5 years for Schumi to win WDC in Ferrari? with those Bridgestone tires advantage?.So when MS move to mercedes why didnt he win?with all his technical ability that he was famous for and with the legendary Ross Brawn, and with all their budget why?.he was outclassed by Nico,maybe MS wasnt as good as a driver as we thought.

I seem to recall it took only a year for seb to be in contention for WDC in 2009 and then in 2010 he won WDC. Didnt Fernando won his WDC in 2005-2006 by having the clear dominant car? Kimi could have won in 2005 and Schumi could have won in 2006 if it werent for their unreliability woes. Didnt Seb won his WDC in 2012 by not having the fastest car? it was widely known that the Mclarens were the faster car in 2012.

Like i said in the earlier post If we were to put Kimi,Alonso,Hamilton,Button,Schumacher,Senna,Prost and all the other greats to RBR and be teammates with seb, Seb would beat them, clearly because seb knows the car and he knows how to drive and get the best out of it. He adapted his driving style to suit the EBD in 2011 while mark couldnt. Mark could have been WDC in 2010 but he was outshine by seb. And ps Alonso does have a weakness its obvious Fred cant handle a situation where he does not have a clear number 1 status and not in the position of running all the shots in the team

I think the point your making is very invalid. Schumacher came into the sport in a completely different era, watch a few GP's from 92 or 93 and you will see he was always in the mix against more competitive cars. He won the 1994 WDC in a car which I beleive was worse than the Williams, and Hill still couldn't beat him even with Schumi being disqualified and banned from a total of 4 or 5 GP's that year. By '95 Benetton were a dominant force with all the right people, a works Renault engine, and all the rest of it... Michael could've stayed for 96, 97 and beyond and continue to win, instead he vowed to bring Ferrari to the top.

If you look at Michaels performances and results between 96-99 against some far superior machinery you'll see why it took him 4 years. Ferrari won 2 GP's between 1991 and 1995, they were in shambles. Schumi persevered to finally acheive ultimate dominance. Vettel/RedFool, and Button/Brawn simply benifited from the major aero reg change in 2009, simple as that. Button went from the back of the grid to the front between Brazil 2008 and Australia 2009.

[sagi58]

Although I understand the inclination to compare, to determine who is the best driver in the best car, with the best team,
I'm not sure that with all the variables involved this can be done with true accuracy.

By variables, I am including the other drivers on the grid, the progress other teams have made, the changes in the rules
and regulations, the types of calls/penalties being made, etc.

I would suggest it's just as difficult to compare the drivers on the grid, unless they are in the same car!

Just my two cents!

[wisepie]

Although I understand the inclination to compare, to determine who is the best driver in the best car, with the best team,
I'm not sure that with all the variables involved this can be done with true accuracy.

By variables, I am including the other drivers on the grid, the progress other teams have made, the changes in the rules
and regulations, the types of calls/penalties being made, etc.

I would suggest it's just as difficult to compare the drivers on the grid, unless they are in the same car!

Just my two cents!

Have to agree, sagi, and there'll never be a straightforward answer as to who's the best of the best, given all those variables you mention. We only know that Ferrari is the best team ever!

[sagi58]

...We only know that Ferrari is the best team ever!

That is NEVER in doubt!!

[ntukza]

Was Byrne the talent behind MS then?

No. But Newey is the talent behind Vettel.

[wisepie]

Not sure I want to admit it, Greig, but Newey is one reason for Vettel's dominance, but the Bieber boy must have some talent to be able to make the most of Newey's creation and more often than not use it to out-perform Webber. Not something I'm happy about but we have to be honest, and of course luck has always favoured Vettel. Now it's our turn.

[Rob]

Not sure I want to admit it, Greig, but Newey is one reason for Vettel's dominance, but the Bieber boy must have some talent to be able to make the most of Newey's creation and more often than not use it to out-perform Webber. Not something I'm happy about but we have to be honest, and of course luck has always favoured Vettel. Now it's our turn.

Yeah it is, but, the car is designed for his style of driving. Braking while steering and getting on the power by the apex giving more D/F and traction on exit. Plus in induces body-roll overteer at the rear that Vettel likes. Hence all the diffusser blowing, engine maps malarky to keep the rear planted for him. To get on power quicker. Thats why Webber struggled in 2011, but start of last year was beating Vettel , but after he signed new contract, RBR changed the rear end, sidepods to bring it back to more of Vettels style.

He maybe good, but in my eyes, to become "a great" he go tto go to smaller team (not front running, Williams, Lotus, FI) and make them RBR and our levels of greatness, just as Schuey (sorry the Chin )did in 1995. Fair play to him, by getting into front running car and become what he has, but put him in Mclaren, Lotus or even 1 of our cars, he wouldnt be where he is. Maybe 1 WDC, but its Newey&Co.

He isnt the racer many people think he is, as i said, he as had the best car, never really fighting wheel to wheel. Looks like he has past year or so, but Abu Dhabi, they changed the whole car so he could overtake. When he did, he was in better car so flew past. Same as Brazil. If Vettel would of started at back of grid in Abu Dhabi he wouldnt of got that high, maybe top 10 maybe to 5th place.

[sagi58]

...the car is designed for his style of driving...

...He maybe good, but in my eyes, to become "a great" he has got to go to smaller team...

... Fair play to him, by getting into front running car...

Isn't it ironic that these comments sum up my opinion of another driver on the grid, after this first few years in F1: Hamilton!

[wisepie]

Good point, Rob and indeed sagi58, and very true in both cases. I don't want to blow Bieber's trumpet any more than necessary, but I do want him to prove that he is as good as the figures would indicate, and until he has a lesser car, the jury is still out!

[Greig]

Vettel done very well in junior categories, done well when testing for BMW, done pretty well in a Torro Rosso and has won 3 titles, yet people still want to think he is not all that good? it's very bizarre. Maybe I just remember all those times people came here telling us MS was not all that good, only winning cause the car and team is designed around him etc etc.

Byrne is pretty much a god on here, but we can't say he was a big reason MS was winning, but we can say Vettel is only winning because of Newey? makes no sense to me again.

[wisepie]

Greig, I only said that Newey's design flair has played a very large part in Vettel's success, I haven't trashed him either, but I still need convincing that he could have done the same with a Ferrari, Mclaren, Lotus of the same season. His Toro Rosso win at Monza was a bit of a fluke due to weather and circumstance. I don't think Byrne at Ferrari had as much to do with MS's success as the combined efforts of the team as a whole, and that took a few years. So I'm not saying Vettel only wins due to Newey, but it does make a big contribution, more so than any other current team.

[Rob]

Vettel done very well in junior categories, done well when testing for BMW, done pretty well in a Torro Rosso and has won 3 titles, yet people still want to think he is not all that good? it's very bizarre. Maybe I just remember all those times people came here telling us MS was not all that good, only winning cause the car and team is designed around him etc etc.

Byrne is pretty much a god on here, but we can't say he was a big reason MS was winning, but we can say Vettel is only winning because of Newey? makes no sense to me again.

Where would RBR and especially Vettel be without Newey and the design team? Put him in a Mclaren, FI, or 1 of our cars, where would he be? The cars wouldnt be designed to his style. He done pretty ok at TR, but that car was the 2007 RBR pretty much. That Monza win was a fluke (duck for cover) He drove the wheels off that car, but remember Fernando, Lewis and both our cars were in tight title fight. Not saying they didnt push or try hard.

Yeah, he has won 3 WDCs, but in my eyes he is a "GREAT", not even close. May sound bias, i see Fernando a great, just from his performances in below par car(s) that includes his couple years back at Renault after the 2007 nightmare for him. After this year, i will respect Lewis alot more, as he has made big, big change from proven winning team to a team that, hasnt been showing full protenetial. As for Vettel, fair play go for pole and win form front. But he hasnt (duck for cover, again) had wheel to wheel fights for pretty much for a whole race with Fernando or someone else. Want see him fight hard, and race like Champion and not cry if someone overtakes him.

[Greig]

Where would RBR and especially Vettel be without Newey and the design team? Put him in a Mclaren, FI, or 1 of our cars, where would he be? The cars wouldnt be designed to his style. He done pretty ok at TR, but that car was the 2007 RBR pretty much. That Monza win was a fluke (duck for cover) He drove the wheels off that car, but remember Fernando, Lewis and both our cars were in tight title fight. Not saying they didnt push or try hard.

Yeah, he has won 3 WDCs, but in my eyes he is a "GREAT", not even close. May sound bias, i see Fernando a great, just from his performances in below par car(s) that includes his couple years back at Renault after the 2007 nightmare for him. After this year, i will respect Lewis alot more, as he has made big, big change from proven winning team to a team that, hasnt been showing full protenetial. As for Vettel, fair play go for pole and win form front. But he hasnt (duck for cover, again) had wheel to wheel fights for pretty much for a whole race with Fernando or someone else. Want see him fight hard, and race like Champion and not cry if someone overtakes him.

Where would we have been without Byrne and his design team? The car is 70% according to Alonso so off course any winning driver is going to need to have a very good team behind them, the same goes for Alonso really he won't be winning 3 titles in a row if he is not given the car to do so. I don't know if car's are ever designed to suit a driver I am not sure why they would be as I guess most teams build the fastest racing car then can then the driver can adapt to it with setup etc, but still a team would not back a driver without good reason. Monza 2008 the conditions were the same for all, it would be like saying it was a fluke MS won Spain 96 for example.

I am not declaring him a great, but clearly putting him down as only winning cause of Newey is as ridiculous as those saying MS only won cause of the car yes they need to have a good car but Webber and Rubens had the same good car the driver still has to get the job done. Vettel would give Alonso and Lewis a run for their money in any team IMO. I don't recall Lewis ever going wheel to wheel with Alonso for a race either, or Alonso going wheel to wheel for a race with anyone? Alonso can get just as heated on the team radio as Vettel also IMO.

[Rob]

With Bryne and Co we wouldnt of had the great 1999-2004 we had. Just because Vettel has won 3 WDCs in a row, doesnt put him in the same league as Fernando or Senna say. What im try to say is he hasnt in my eyes proven himself in a top team that has a car that is .3 tenths off pace and win, or finish on podium. Yeah fair play to him jumping into RBR when he did, and Newey&Co getting jump on everyone else with simulation tools.

Teams will always design the car around the top driver, as he the 1 they counting on more to win and fight for the WDC, while the team mate got set the car up to his liking. I have said before, where was Vettel start of last year before they sorted the rear of the car and exhaust blowing that would suit his style? While with the more conventenial style exhausts Webber could drive better.

[Greig]

What is designed around the F138 for Fernando then? The start of last season the RBR was a bit off the pace and he kept scoring decent points? Was not really until the summer break until Red Bull got the car to being the very best. If the car was designed around Vettel then why did they need to sort it out to suit him?

He is a very good driver and given the car he will win races and titles as proven, I really don't see what else he has to prove to anyone