Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 100

Thread: Alonso and Hamilton, when the driver still makes the difference.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    824

    Alonso and Hamilton, when the driver still makes the difference.

    Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton respect each other and probably fear each other.
    There almost seems to be a friendship between the two champions, how different was that when they were team mates at McLaren, sparks flew off in all directions.
    But with the passing of the years and a few fights on track, they have come to respect each other.


    In the Bahrain race both of their cars showed signs of trouble, Alonso's DRS wing refused to play along and Hamilton's Mercedes ate away the rear tires faster than a speeding bullet, but both of them put in a great performance and proved that a driver can still make the difference.
    Alonso drove like a lion, starting his race from P17, handicapped by the loss of his DRS and therefore in some laps a lower topspeed, and still the Asturian champion put up great fight with the unleashed Mexican Perez, even passing him on the pitstraight and taking over 7th place for a couple of corners.

    Hamilton on his part started from P9, suffered the usual Mercedes "diseases" but eventually forced his way past Webber, who on paper is driving the same "spaceship" as his team mate.
    Both outperformed their teammates not by a small margin, although Massa in this case can't be blamed because of the two punctures.
    It has become almost a trademark for both of them to overcome problems with the car and find performance were it's not expected.
    There is also a remarkable resemblance to their team mates, both Felipe Massa and Nico Rosberg can be extremely fast over 1 lap, but usually lose out to their team mates in the race, although in all fairness Lewis can be considered the fastest driver over 1 lap.
    Both Fernando and Lewis are instinctive drivers and have a competitive nastiness that not many drivers have.

    Is Vettel a member of this elusive club? That remains to be seen, we have seen him drive and fight very intense, we have seen him crush and dispose his team mate like a certain Michael Schumacher, but we haven't seen him yet in a car that's not at the level of his recent RB's, neither have we seen him in a team where, let's say, all the engineers solutions are not designed to his wishes.

    Is it a coincidence that Mercedes is performing better after the arrival of Hamilton? Probably not, real champions not only bring their driving skills, but also relentlessness, accuracy, efficiency, leaving absolutely nothing to chance, and where Lewis scores better points in qualifying, Fernando outperforms Lewis in this area, making them both the fiercest competitors on the grid.
    But despite having all those qualities, both failed to win the championship for several years now, but were beaten by the ubiquitous Red Bull car, driven by Vettel.

    If the German is a cannibal, as was his illustrious compatriot from Kerpen, than the Spaniard and the Brit are the ones who excite the Formula 1 fans, in the end the numbers are only for statistical purposes and posterity, but you can't fool a true fan's racing heart, Alonso and Hamilton are pure bred racehorses, that can't be tamed, let them loose and they'll take off like a rocket, they can't help it, it's in their nature.
    An explosion of emotions at every Grand Prix, in an era where the strict rules of modern F1 even try to control how the drivers behave, they are the true ring masters.
    Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
    Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Christchurch,UK
    Posts
    4,957
    Have to agree with most of this Massimo, I'm not a Lewis supporter but am prepared to give him credit where it's due. I wasn't a Fernando fan either when he was our main competitor, but they do both bring out something in the race fan that I don't believe Vettel could ever do. I'll accept Vettel's ability and achievements thus far, but without the RB car I'm not so sure he'd have been 3 times WDC. Let's pray it's not a fourth!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Machu Pichu
    Posts
    727
    Yes, i absolutely agree, Two racehorses and a kid in a spaceship, lol
    Go Ferrari, beat them all!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,495
    I honestly think I would rather see Hamilton at Ferrari before Vettel.


    Disappointed Since 2010

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    philippines
    Posts
    420
    i wonder how beiber would react if he were able to read this one
    Hell would have broken loose

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    824
    Quote Originally Posted by Giallo 550 View Post
    I honestly think I would rather see Hamilton at Ferrari before Vettel.
    Yep, me too.
    Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
    Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    .
    Posts
    545
    Hamilton can be an absolute baby but he has strong humility unlike Seb. I really like Lewis. I respect his raw pace and ability.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    165
    Never liked him before, but have changed my opinion since

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    33,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Massimo View Post
    but we haven't seen him yet in a car that's not at the level of his recent RB's, neither have we seen him in a team where, let's say, all the engineers solutions are not designed to his wishes.
    Erm we seen him in Torro Rosso win at Monza?

    And have Fernando and Lewis ever been in a team that is not designed around them? I don't think so.
    Forza Ferrari

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    824
    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Erm we seen him in Torro Rosso win at Monza?

    And have Fernando and Lewis ever been in a team that is not designed around them? I don't think so.
    Ok, he won a race in a Torro Rosso, fair enough.
    The Red Bull car is completely made or changed to Vettel's wishes, i don't think this is the case with Fernando and Lewis, they seem to bring something extra to a team, something that i haven't seen Vettel do, neither have i seen him struggle with a difficult car.
    Maybe personal, but i don't think Vettel brings the same emotion to the track as Fernando and Lewis, regardless what position they drive.
    Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
    Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    33,636
    If Lewis and Fernando bring something extra to a team, and Seb does not then how come Seb is the one sitting in the best car? How can you just say RBR have the best car but it's nothing to do with Seb?
    Forza Ferrari

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    824
    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    If Lewis and Fernando bring something extra to a team, and Seb does not then how come Seb is the one sitting in the best car? How can you just say RBR have the best car but it's nothing to do with Seb?
    I think Newey's talent is bigger than Vettel's, yes.
    Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
    Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    84
    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    If Lewis and Fernando bring something extra to a team, and Seb does not then how come Seb is the one sitting in the best car? How can you just say RBR have the best car but it's nothing to do with Seb?
    You can blame Newey for that

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    33,636
    Was Byrne the talent behind MS then?
    Forza Ferrari

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    824
    For a big part yes, and the Bridgestone tires didn't do us any harm either, combine that with Schumacher's talent and you get years of domination.
    I'm not saying Vettel is bad driver, because he's obviously not, i just think he needs a very specific car to do the trick, one that Newey gives him, do you think Vettel could've done whit a car like the F2012 what Fernando did ?
    Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
    Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    824
    I also think Fernando and Lewis a more capable of driving around any trouble they have with the car.

    And the fact that i simply don't like Vettel might cloud my judgement slightly, Vettel is the personification of the Playstation generation, skinny, nerdy, young and a Justin Bieber haircut, that's why he appeals to young people in general and certainly young F1 fans, they can identify with him.
    He has an adolescent image, where James Hunt was the personification of sex and coolness, Nigel Mansell hard and obdurate, Ayrton Senna carried the whole of South America on his shoulders and represented hope for millions.

    The reality in F1 racing nowadays is that a 19 year old can climb into an F1 car and immediately be fast, a button to change gear, a button to overtake, a button to change the brakes, a button to drink.....Playstation generation, they have been doing that since they were 5 years old with all those little buttons.
    Where are the days of real men with moustaches and beards, who had to be of a certain age to be able to cope mentally and physically with life in Formula 1.
    The constant threat of dead or serious injury separated the men from the boys, some just didn't have the b*lls to go as fast as they wanted.
    physically it was far more demanding to, constantly using both feet to push the clutch, brake and accelerator, turning the car without power steering or traction control.
    In some decades with more than a 1000 hp. under the hood, and death was always looking over their shoulder, waiting for his chance.
    Gone are the days...

    Is that bad, not necessarily, the way the cars change the drivers change also. Do i miss it? Yes, i miss seeing real men in the cars, in stead of children, it almost annoys me that a 19 year old kid with one hand on the steering wheel and one hand on the energy drink button, with the accelerator pushed down, can take a high speed corner without a care in the world.
    That's why i think Mark Webber and Fernando Alonso for instance are so popular with older F1 fans, journalists and F1 team bosses, they still have this aura of the good old days, the last men standing.
    No, in my opinion, Vettel has a long way to go.
    Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
    Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    1,914
    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Erm we seen him in Torro Rosso win at Monza?
    And Olivier Panis in Monaco
    and Johnny Herbert at the Nürburg Ring (Grand Prix of Europe)

    of course he is now 3times WDC but I don't think that anyone honestly thought about that for Vettel as he won Monza then
    His overall Toro Rosso performance wasn't that glimmering but this day was of course a big highlight an maybe (in my opinion) his best drive ever according to the car's skills.

    and for now it is like it is ... time will show if he is really the great man and push a team forward or not.
    Lets see what come .. when Vettel changes the team and no more Marko or Newey again ... maybe I've to change my opinion ... but thats all in the future ...

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Maributo Key
    Posts
    5,988
    Isnt this why there are #1 drivers and #2 drivers? In the top teams, who are the #1 drivers?
    Theres a reason for this, as you can see on racedays.
    Alonso, Lewis, Kimi, and Vettel.
    Vettel won Monza in a car that never won, and will probably never win again, against the aforementioned drivers.
    People tend to dislike a driver/team that is currently dominant or winning against your preferred marque, its only natural.
    But it takes nothing away from that team. Vettel finished 8th in his 1st drive for BMW, won Monza in a Toro, won multiple ROC's with a certain Schumacher
    and is winning now. Yes, the car is good, as good as its designer, so while I hate seeing them, or any team for that matter beat my Ferrari team, I give
    credit where credit is due.
    I do miss certain era's of F1, def not crazy about the current state of F1, but thats what it is at the moment.
    And if Hamilton or Vettel ever do drive a Red, they'll bring their fans, and we will root for them also, simply because they'll be driving a Ferrari.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    33,636
    Quote Originally Posted by Senna4Ever View Post
    And Olivier Panis in Monaco
    and Johnny Herbert at the Nürburg Ring (Grand Prix of Europe)

    of course he is now 3times WDC but I don't think that anyone honestly thought about that for Vettel as he won Monza then
    His overall Toro Rosso performance wasn't that glimmering but this day was of course a big highlight an maybe (in my opinion) his best drive ever according to the car's skills.

    and for now it is like it is ... time will show if he is really the great man and push a team forward or not.
    Lets see what come .. when Vettel changes the team and no more Marko or Newey again ... maybe I've to change my opinion ... but thats all in the future ...
    Seb is a great driver, like it or not and putting him down just makes no sense to me. He has won 3 titles on the trot yet you say he still has to show he can push a team forward? makes no sense to me either.

    It's like Seb is the new Alonso on here (pre 2010), dismissed and put down, and only wins cause of the car.
    Forza Ferrari

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    61
    I also think Fernando and Lewis a more capable of driving around any trouble they have with the car.
    I tend to disagree, Fernando never had the problem of driving a car not to his liking because he gets or demands number 1 status right away(Mclaren 2007) and having number 1 status gives you the influence on the car to your liking and how the development will be suited to the car. I seem to recall Lewis struggling during the first 8 races in 2009 when the Macca was a dog,only when they had massive developments introduced to the car he was at the top again. All this talk about Vettel is just sourgrapes IMO clearly Vettels greatest asset is his intelligence and he is technically gifted, he can adapt to the car and he understood Neweys design for the car and he adapted his driving style to get the best out of it while Mark could not, Seb was even the only one who visited the Tire manufacturer in 2011 to better understand the tires.

    Perhaps you also believe that Alonso can do magic on the F2012 car clearly the car was not as bad as Alo keeps on saying, it had great race pace it was among the top 3, it was one of the best in wet conditions. What made it look bad was it wasnt strong in qualifying because of tire warm up problems which they improve in 2013 and Massas woes because Massa was not as confident in the car as Alonso, the cars characteristics wasnt suited to Massa, same problem Kimi had in 2008.

    If we were to put Alonso,Kimi,Hamilton in redbull they would get owned by Vettel because Vettel knows the car inside and out. Give credit where credit is due

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    651
    Quote Originally Posted by FerrariIce View Post
    If we were to put Alonso,Kimi,Hamilton in redbull they would get owned by Vettel because Vettel knows the car inside and out. Give credit where credit is due
    And if we put Sebastian in a Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren or Mercedes he would get owned by the aforementioned drivers too.
    Forza Ferrari!!

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    norCal
    Posts
    9,647
    Quote Originally Posted by NickEice View Post
    And if we put Sebastian in a Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren or Mercedes he would get owned by the aforementioned drivers too.
    Yup.

    I will bet that Alonso would adapt to the switch quicker than Vettel, too.

    -Lou(is)
    Forza
    Ferrari 16/15

    Totus Tuus


  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso View Post
    Yup.

    I will bet that Alonso would adapt to the switch quicker than Vettel, too.
    True, one of Fernandos greatest asset is he can adapt so quickly and that what makes him a great driver

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    651
    The 2008 Toro Rosso was the best car that Toro Rosso has ever developed. It was also designed by Adrian Newey. Let's also remember that it was a rain effected race and qauli. The car that weekend was setup perfectly as many drivers are quoted as saying. Vettels Teammate Sebastian Bourdais qualified 4th that day too. The grid was a lottery due to track conditions. Massa and Hamilton, the championship protagonists that year finished 6th and 7th respectively. It's not like he won this race in a backmarker car in dry conditions.

    Also the first half of last year shows what kind of driver Sebastian is when he doesn't have his car with a rear end glued to the road. 4 podiums in 13 races. Alonso had 7, Kimi 6, Lewis 6, Button 4.

    Then the magic Newey update brought 4 straight wins a 3rd and a 2nd in the next 6 races.
    Forza Ferrari!!

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    651
    I don't like the kid and that may cloud my judgement. I will say he is a good racer and his statistics are unbelievable but he has never been in a bad car. Alonso, unfortunately spent many years of his career in under-performing machinery. He's had the best car on the grid once, 2005. And his 2006 championship against our beloved Ferrari team and the greatest driver of all time might be one of the greatest seasons a driver has ever had. Has Sebastian ever done something like that?
    Forza Ferrari!!

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Christchurch,UK
    Posts
    4,957
    Massimo, you make an interesting comment relating to how Vettel sits with the older F1 fan, you're quite right that his youth and image may appeal to the younger F1 fans and I suppose that's good for the sport long-term. I just find his finger-poking and girlish shrieking quite nauseating but it doesn't mean I can't accept that he has the talent and intelligence to drive a good race, albeit more often than not from the front of the grid due to the car being so good. I hate to admit that Red Bull have for the past few seasons had the best car out there, it's been painful watching our beloved Ferrari trying to catch up and I find it quite unbeliveable that no other team has been able to better the RB cars convincingly over that period. But as we all know from past cycles, things will inevitably change, it's just that the competition is so much closer nowadays and the old-school drivers are becoming fewer by the year, which to me is a huge shame. I admire young talent (Bianchi etc) and want them to do well, but my idols are the older guys who have earnt their positions the hard way. Stand up, Fernando and Felipe! And roll on Barcelona.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    I Giorni
    Posts
    1,120
    Sebastian Vettel always wants to win at any costs. This personality is something that we have seen it everytime especially in 2013 Bahrain GP his first overtake on Fernando was risky and Fernando gave him space to let that risky overtaking to end without crashing.
    Having respect to the other drivers is something that you can't find in Sebastian Vettel yet. Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna hadn't that respect either. In my opinion having respect to the other drivers is the most necessary talent that every great driver should have.
    ||||||||||||||||||||||

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Belfast, UK
    Posts
    8,498
    Quote Originally Posted by Massimo View Post

    The reality in F1 racing nowadays is that a 19 year old can climb into an F1 car and immediately be fast, a button to change gear, a button to overtake, a button to change the brakes, a button to drink.....Playstation generation, they have been doing that since they were 5 years old with all those little buttons.
    Where are the days of real men with moustaches and beards, who had to be of a certain age to be able to cope mentally and physically with life in Formula 1.
    The constant threat of dead or serious injury separated the men from the boys, some just didn't have the b*lls to go as fast as they wanted.
    physically it was far more demanding to, constantly using both feet to push the clutch, brake and accelerator, turning the car without power steering or traction control.
    In some decades with more than a 1000 hp. under the hood, and death was always looking over their shoulder, waiting for his chance.
    Gone are the days...

    .
    But (unfortunately) things have to move on. And because Seb IS young and 'modern', that's what brings new fans in. I prefer the 'older' drivers like Fernando and Felipe but that's because I'm around the same age myself. If you're a new fan watching the sport for the first time, of course you're going to be identifying with someone who is the same generation as you. Everything has to move with the times, even F1, otherwise we'd all be sitting here like Stirling Moss moaning on about how F1's too safe now and women shouldn't be involved.
    Forza Jules

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,840
    Quote Originally Posted by AfterLife View Post
    Sebastian Vettel always wants to win at any costs. This personality is something that we have seen it everytime especially in 2013 Bahrain GP his first overtake on Fernando was risky and Fernando gave him space to let that risky overtaking to end without crashing.
    Having respect to the other drivers is something that you can't find in Sebastian Vettel yet. Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna hadn't that respect either. In my opinion having respect to the other drivers is the most necessary talent that every great driver should have.
    Vettel no doubt has developed a ruthless streak but you have to have that to survive at the top. Frank Williams once said "F1 drivers are ruthless ******* because they have to be", so it comes with the territory. The other drivers don't have to respect him, as long as they fear him and by fear him I don't mean fear he will crash them, but fear that he is willing to make those brave moves. That alone can keep them guessing and can force mistakes.

    I would take Alonso or Hamilton over Seb if I had a choice because I think they are both inherently faster, but if I had to settle for Seb I wouldn't cry about it. I'd take him over the rest of them.


    Don't play dumb with me. I'm better at it than you are.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    824
    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Seb is a great driver, like it or not and putting him down just makes no sense to me. He has won 3 titles on the trot yet you say he still has to show he can push a team forward? makes no sense to me either.

    It's like Seb is the new Alonso on here (pre 2010), dismissed and put down, and only wins cause of the car.
    Greig, you have to get in touch with your server company, i keep getting redirected to www.infiniti-redbullracing.com/
    Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
    Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •