2014 Regulations.(engine/aero etc etc)

[Dino]

There will also need to be a lot more air directed to the [larger] sidepods entrance.
Air for intercooler,Kers,engine coolant etc.
It is going to be a lot hotter under that body next year.

[Kiwi Nick]

There is an irony in the 2014 regs. Noses have been lowered, no body work behind the exhaust, no lower beam wing, more cooling needed due to turbo and energy recovery systems, rear wing is smaller. Everybody thinks that aero has been reduced to a secondary position because of the reduction in wing sizes and the need to flow more air through cooling systems.

Actually, with reduced opportunity to influence the car via aerodynamics, it will be more important than ever. Who ever can find the magical way of optimizing the lower nose or the smaller rear wing and optimize cooling air flow will have a big advantage. Conversely, if a designer blows the cooling airflow, it could be a disaster. Think MP4-18, or RBR? that had to have holes cut in the side pods in an attempt to keep the radiators and electronics cool.

[ntukza]

There is an irony in the 2014 regs. Noses have been lowered, no body work behind the exhaust, no lower beam wing, more cooling needed due to turbo and energy recovery systems, rear wing is smaller. Everybody thinks that aero has been reduced to a secondary position because of the reduction in wing sizes and the need to flow more air through cooling systems.

Actually, with reduced opportunity to influence the car via aerodynamics, it will be more important than ever. Who ever can find the magical way of optimizing the lower nose or the smaller rear wing and optimize cooling air flow will have a big advantage. Conversely, if a designer blows the cooling airflow, it could be a disaster. Think MP4-18, or RBR? that had to have holes cut in the side pods in an attempt to keep the radiators and electronics cool.

If that's the case, it sounds like we won't be the ones with magic solutions given our (LDM's) excitement at the new regulations.

[stefa]

I wanted to stay cool about next year car but more I read posts in this thread I am becoming confused and little bit worried about what will Ferrari do..

[Forzi]

Personally i'm wondering what Newey will do. Lost his main and beloved playing ground that got RBR where it is now since 2009.

[ntukza]

Personally i'm wondering what Newey will do. Lost his main and beloved playing ground that got RBR where it is now since 2009.

He might just do some magical things while everyone else writes the aero off as unimportant.

[Imperatore]

Not only it's too early, but it's just plain impossible and silly.

Yes exactly, no one knows how powerful any of the engines are.

[hrc5555]

The fact is that our 2014 engine will be the cheapest and the most people thinks it will have the less horse power, but that does not necessarily mean that it will be the worst. I think the power of the engine will not be as important as it is now!
From the words of Caterham's Mark Smith and Toro Rosso's James Key (and ours Luca Marmorini) the largest problem with 20014 car will be: first- cooling and fuel consumption, second- space in car and accommodation of engine and other parts.

If we look this way, the cheapest engine can mean it is the smallest. Small engine means more space for other parts and better airflow, it also can mean it is the lightest and we all now how important is to have light car. Less power means less fuel consumption, and that means smaller tank, more space, better airflow... Only 100kg of fuel in car could make any high power engine (with high consumption) useless.

It is just may way of thinking...

[Bubbles]

The fact is that our 2014 engine will be the cheapest and the most people thinks it will have the less horse power, but that does not necessarily mean that it will be the worst. I think the power of the engine will not be as important as it is now!
From the words of Caterham's Mark Smith and Toro Rosso's James Key (and ours Luca Marmorini) the largest problem with 20014 car will be: first- cooling and fuel consumption, second- space in car and accommodation of engine and other parts.

If we look this way, the cheapest engine can mean it is the smallest. Small engine means more space for other parts and better airflow, it also can mean it is the lightest and we all now how important is to have light car. Less power means less fuel consumption, and that means smaller tank, more space, better airflow... Only 100kg of fuel in car could make any high power engine (with high consumption) useless.

It is just may way of thinking...

You know, it's not a bad way of thinking. Making the engine smaller than the others will bring a huge aero advantage, given how much cooling these things need. That would mean giving up some performance for gaining some aero, meaning a smaller cross-section.

No bad, man. This might actually happen.

It's no use having 80HP more if you have to use 100HP more to carry the extra lump around the track.

[hrc5555]

You know, it's not a bad way of thinking. Making the engine smaller than the others will bring a huge aero advantage, given how much cooling these things need. That would mean giving up some performance for gaining some aero, meaning a smaller cross-section.

No bad, man. This might actually happen.

It's no use having 80HP more if you have to use 100HP more to carry the extra lump around the track.

Yes, it could also help with weight distribution.
That can be the reason why Ferrari is still hiding the engine and informations about it!

[Bubbles]

Yes, it could also help with weight distribution.
That can be the reason why Ferrari is still hiding the engine and informations about it!

It would be great to know what the costs are per horsepower for the new turbos. Meaning, how much weight do you need per horsepower, how much heat is produced per horsepower, things like that. You could then see where the trade-offs can be made.

I'm sure Ferrari have that info.

[brembo man]

I always remembered turbo engines burned much less fuel than the same size naturally aspirated engine.

[hrc5555]

I always remembered turbo engines burned much less fuel than the same size naturally aspirated engine.

We did not compere turbo engines with naturally aspirated engines...

[Bubbles]

I always remembered turbo engines burned much less fuel than the same size naturally aspirated engine.

But they produce way more heat, which requires a larger installation - more space, more drag.

[brembo man]

We did not compere turbo engines with naturally aspirated engines...

Whoe's we? I was the one asking about a comparison. with regards to fuel consumption , thinking smaller fuel tank and less fuel on board.

[hrc5555]

Whoe's we? I was the one asking about a comparison. with regards to fuel consumption , thinking smaller fuel tank and less fuel on board.

Sorry, I thought you are replaying to Bubblieses and mine posts...
Everyone will have the same size of tank which will fill with 100kg fuel.

[Kiwi Nick]

Sorry, I thought you are replaying to Bubblieses and mine posts...
Everyone will have the same size of tank which will fill with 100kg fuel.

The cars will all have the same size fuel tanks, they will all weigh the same, the engines will all produce the same power (give or take about 20bhp), burn about the same amount of fuel, will use the same tires, and all will have similar energy recovery systems. Although the energy recovery systems may vary more than any other mechanical aspect of the car as they are not so tightly speced as the engines.

The big differences will be in suspension, the new nose and wing specs, and how the car is packaged/cooled. Two of those three are basically aerodynamics. Yes the car will need much more cooling than this year, but the trade off is aero vs cooling. The winner in that contest is the one who can cool his engine, energy recovery systems and electronics in the most aerodynamic package.

The energy recovery systems seem to me to be one spot where teams may be the most different, but who knows.

I think that the reason that so many people are saying that the engines will make the most difference is just because it is such a big change. But as we saw when the spec went from V-10 to V-8, things even out pretty quickly.

So, my bet is still that the aero/cooling package will be most important.

[Rob]

The cars will all have the same size fuel tanks, they will all weigh the same, the engines will all produce the same power (give or take about 20bhp), burn about the same amount of fuel, will use the same tires, and all will have similar energy recovery systems. Although the energy recovery systems may vary more than any other mechanical aspect of the car as they are not so tightly speced as the engines.

The big differences will be in suspension, the new nose and wing specs, and how the car is packaged/cooled. Two of those three are basically aerodynamics. Yes the car will need much more cooling than this year, but the trade off is aero vs cooling. The winner in that contest is the one who can cool his engine, energy recovery systems and electronics in the most aerodynamic package.

The energy recovery systems seem to me to be one spot where teams may be the most different, but who knows.

I think that the reason that so many people are saying that the engines will make the most difference is just because it is such a big change. But as we saw when the spec went from V-10 to V-8, things even out pretty quickly.

So, my bet is still that the aero/cooling package will be most important.

Next year it will be 140 litres, at the moment we using 230 litres.

[hrc5555]

Next year it will be 140 litres, at the moment we using 230 litres.

Fuel will not be measured in liters but in kilos because of temperature influence...
Tank will bi max. 100kg of fuel.

[hrc5555]

Next year it will be 140 litres, at the moment we using 230 litres.

So it will be around 100l, not 140l.

[Rob]

So it will be around 100l, not 140l.

yeah i think so. They going to be going alot slower thats for sure.

[hrc5555]

The cars will all have the same size fuel tanks, they will all weigh the same, the engines will all produce the same power (give or take about 20bhp), burn about the same amount of fuel, will use the same tires, and all will have similar energy recovery systems. Although the energy recovery systems may vary more than any other mechanical aspect of the car as they are not so tightly speced as the engines.

The big differences will be in suspension, the new nose and wing specs, and how the car is packaged/cooled. Two of those three are basically aerodynamics. Yes the car will need much more cooling than this year, but the trade off is aero vs cooling. The winner in that contest is the one who can cool his engine, energy recovery systems and electronics in the most aerodynamic package.

The energy recovery systems seem to me to be one spot where teams may be the most different, but who knows.

I think that the reason that so many people are saying that the engines will make the most difference is just because it is such a big change. But as we saw when the spec went from V-10 to V-8, things even out pretty quickly.

So, my bet is still that the aero/cooling package will be most important.

Different approach and different technology could result with quite different engine! So we could see engines with different power, fuel consumptions and weight.

[hrc5555]

yeah i think so. They going to be going alot slower thats for sure.

Yes, and thats why the fuel consumption will be more important than it is today.

[Bubbles]

So it will be around 100l, not 140l.

Actually, it will be 100Kg occupying 140L. Fuel is less dense than water.

[hrc5555]

Actually, it will be 100Kg occupying 140L. Fuel is less dense than water.

[Kiwi Nick]

Different approach and different technology could result with quite different engine! So we could see engines with different power, fuel consumptions and weight.

The engine spec is rather tight. Bore - 80mm, +- 0.1mm. 90 degree V, exhaust must be outboard of V, valve stems not less than 5mm, RPM limited to 15,000, below 10,500 RPM mass fuel flow shall not exceed 0.009N9RPM)+5, fuel mass flow shall not exceed 100kg/h, engine minimum weight is 155kg, engine center of gravity must be higher than 200mm above the reference plane, one injector per cylinder, direct injection only, fuel pressure at the injectors may not exceed 500 bars, engines must use FIA approved injectors, one coil, only standard resistor type spark plugs, one spark plug per cylinder, no magnesium alloys, no metal matrix composites, no ceramics or ceramic matric composites, no tungsten alloys, limited use of iridium, beryllium and rhenium...you get the point. The FIA has pretty well designed the engine and energy recovery systems, what they are made of, what they weigh, roughly how big they can be and where they are located in the car.

Basically, the power production and recovery units are fixed (because that is how the FIA wants it). Of course there will be some small variation, but it is more likely that somebody will get it wrong than somebody will do it far better than the competition without breaking the rules and as the engines are refined the differences will become less and less.

[Hornet]

The engine spec is rather tight. Bore - 80mm, +- 0.1mm. 90 degree V, exhaust must be outboard of V, valve stems not less than 5mm, RPM limited to 15,000, below 10,500 RPM mass fuel flow shall not exceed 0.009N9RPM)+5, fuel mass flow shall not exceed 100kg/h, engine minimum weight is 155kg, engine center of gravity must be higher than 200mm above the reference plane, one injector per cylinder, direct injection only, fuel pressure at the injectors may not exceed 500 bars, engines must use FIA approved injectors, one coil, only standard resistor type spark plugs, one spark plug per cylinder, no magnesium alloys, no metal matrix composites, no ceramics or ceramic matric composites, no tungsten alloys, limited use of iridium, beryllium and rhenium...you get the point. The FIA has pretty well designed the engine and energy recovery systems, what they are made of, what they weigh, roughly how big they can be and where they are located in the car.

Basically, the power production and recovery units are fixed (because that is how the FIA wants it). Of course there will be some small variation, but it is more likely that somebody will get it wrong than somebody will do it far better than the competition without breaking the rules and as the engines are refined the differences will become less and less.

Wow, that's some really tight regulations, right down to the center of gravity being regulated.

I agree though, that with these regulations, there's little freedom on how different manufacturer can make their engine. I don't believe any team will have a significant advantage over others, in the long run.

[Forzi]

Tank will bi max. 100kg of fuel.

THAT IS INCORRECT!!!

It's actually about 102 kg

100 kg will be for the race (start-finish), but additional few kilos will be needed for the warm up lap and fuel sample

[ManFromMilan]

The engine spec is rather tight. Bore - 80mm, +- 0.1mm. 90 degree V, exhaust must be outboard of V, valve stems not less than 5mm, RPM limited to 15,000, below 10,500 RPM mass fuel flow shall not exceed 0.009N9RPM)+5, fuel mass flow shall not exceed 100kg/h, engine minimum weight is 155kg, engine center of gravity must be higher than 200mm above the reference plane, one injector per cylinder, direct injection only, fuel pressure at the injectors may not exceed 500 bars, engines must use FIA approved injectors, one coil, only standard resistor type spark plugs, one spark plug per cylinder, no magnesium alloys, no metal matrix composites, no ceramics or ceramic matric composites, no tungsten alloys, limited use of iridium, beryllium and rhenium...you get the point. The FIA has pretty well designed the engine and energy recovery systems, what they are made of, what they weigh, roughly how big they can be and where they are located in the car.

Basically, the power production and recovery units are fixed (because that is how the FIA wants it). Of course there will be some small variation, but it is more likely that somebody will get it wrong than somebody will do it far better than the competition without breaking the rules and as the engines are refined the differences will become less and less.

Wow, that is really regulated!

I wonder how much use it will be then in the end for manufacturers. How much leeway is there with regards to the ERS?

[stefa]

Personally i'm wondering what Newey will do. Lost his main and beloved playing ground that got RBR where it is now since 2009.

I will not write him off just like that. Wounded beast is the one to fearvthe most...