2014 Regulations.(engine/aero etc etc)

[Bubbles]

The estimated drop off in lap times is around 5 seconds I hope that's an exaggeration though.

That's quite a lot of time. We'll be back to 2009 with that one...

So five seconds per lap is what you lose from giving away 130 horsepower and having to use larger sidepods for the extra cooling.

[Bubbles]

But I have a question:

So let's say all this nonsense about the environment goes ahead as planned, and a few engine makers join F1 (like Honda). Will Jean Todt look at that and say it was worth castrating F1 just to have more engine manufacturers? Because you're not going to see manufacturer teams on the grid anytime soon, just engine manufacturers.

If the green stuff only brings you a couple of more engine manufacturers, then what was the point of all this? Will publications around the world praise Jean Todt and the FIA for giving a damn about CO2 or ... I'm lost for words here. I just don't understand what the FIA is hoping to achieve with this.

As many have said already, a 747 produces enough CO2 in one flight as the whole of F1 in a year.

I really hope JT knows something we don't and that he's going to surprise us with the unbelievable advantages of going this route, because, otherwise, he's going to have a riot on his hands.

EDIT: Oh, and that stupid idea of his of putting a sound box on the back of the car so that they make as much noise as the current V8s is the biggest piece of nonsense I have ever heard/read.

[Tobes]

Of course, with better aero you can compensate - to a degree - the loss of engine power, but what I just realized is that engine speed (i.e., RPM) is necessary to get the wheels spinning fast and the car moving fast. Of course, the gearbox adjusts that, but unless the aero becomes like 50% better than what it is now, you're going to look at those cars and say they're much slower. Those V6 engines will be spending most of their lives at 10.5K RPM, which is almost half of what's running now.

So the FIA decided to trade RPM - and speed - for lower fuel consumption and more torque. Isn't more torque bad for the fragile tires? How will those come together?

EDIT: There's also the possibility of using a much better fuel, one that gives as much energy for 1.6L as the current fuel for 2.4L, but that's not going to happen.

What you are saying is true, except that you are not taking into account the cars will also run forced induction (turbo chargers) and will have twice as much power available for twice as long as now from the KERS and add to that the TERS (which could be used to keep the turbos 'spooled up' to negate any lag) which will also be completely new for next year, on the basis we don't really notice the speed differential in slow corners, and on the straights with DRS, twice the current power from KERS, TERS and the turbos I don't think that the speed will be noticeably different to now...

[Bubbles]

I hope you're right about that.

[Tobes]

The estimated drop off in lap times is around 5 seconds I hope that's an exaggeration though.

I really don't believe that, 2 secs maybe 3 secs tops, but no more, but I think that will be got back by the first third of the season by the top teams anyway, other than the sound, the spectacle will (for the most part) remain exactly as it is now...

[Tobes]

As many have said already, a 747 produces enough CO2 in one flight as the whole of F1 in a year.

Indeed, but that's not the point, when the green technology is made very efficient by it's use in F1 and all the engine manufacturers in F1 then use their technology in their road cars then it will make a massive difference on a global scale, just imagine all road cars in the world with KERS and 50% more fuel efficient, 50% less emissions globally...

I'm not saying I agree with the environment friendly direction F1 is going in (my car has a straight six engine and does less than 10mpg on a track day) i'm just saying I understand why it is and believe eventually it will prove beneficial to the consumer and the environment...

[Umbria]

The movement of this green energy approach to F1 is nonsense! What is the benefit? If someone says it's to advance technology for leaner burning engines, then go to Le Mans and use that venue, stay out of F1. The FIA is screwing up the sport with their overreach. Real F1 fans want the sound of V12 engines, instead we are now concerned with saving fuel??? Give me a break!

[Aberracus]

I can imagine, the real genuine innovative and brilliant people in F1 will give us super fast cars with this, and really the sound is one good thing, but when I was 8 years old I imagined the future with fantastic looking and sounding cars. We don't need to live in the past.

[Nero Horse]

I really don't believe that, 2 secs maybe 3 secs tops, but no more, but I think that will be got back by the first third of the season by the top teams anyway, other than the sound, the spectacle will (for the most part) remain exactly as it is now...

Yea, 2 or 3 secs sounds more realistic indeed, but the pundits at Sky Sports told that the simulations have shown a 5 sec drop off in lap times. But then again, simulations aren't always 100% accurate anyway so hopefully the drop off won't be that big. The thing I'm going to miss most though, is the awesome screaming sound of the naturally aspirated engines. The sounds of the turbo engines are gonna take some getting used to, that's for sure.

[Umbria]

Ferrari and F1 have a great deal to do with the past!

[Nova]

What you are saying is true, except that you are not taking into account the cars will also run forced induction (turbo chargers) and will have twice as much power available for twice as long as now from the KERS and add to that the TERS (which could be used to keep the turbos 'spooled up' to negate any lag) which will also be completely new for next year, on the basis we don't really notice the speed differential in slow corners, and on the straights with DRS, twice the current power from KERS, TERS and the turbos I don't think that the speed will be noticeably different to now...

I dont either..plus the turbo's of now r so much more advanced than when last used in F1. Turbo lag is probably a none issue, unlike the 80's.
So, on average, how long does F1 use engines, or should I say, types of engines? Meaning, they used they V10's for a period, then the V8's, next year turbo's for say what, 4 years? So what will they go to after the turbo's? Back to 10's, V8's? V12's? But I have to say we will never see V12's in F1 again.

[Nick Singer]

With luck, the Poison Dwarf will get banged up for his part in the CVC/ bribery thing and sanity will return to the administration and governance of F1..

[Kyss4k]

What you are saying is true, except that you are not taking into account the cars will also run forced induction (turbo chargers) and will have twice as much power available for twice as long as now from the KERS and add to that the TERS (which could be used to keep the turbos 'spooled up' to negate any lag) which will also be completely new for next year, on the basis we don't really notice the speed differential in slow corners, and on the straights with DRS, twice the current power from KERS, TERS and the turbos I don't think that the speed will be noticeably different to now...

But these are the facts:

Now
Engine: +-800bhp
KERS: 80bhp for 6 seconds per lap

2014
Expected power of the turbo engine alone: 600bhp
ERS: 160bhp for 33 seconds per lap.

Next year the engine and ERS together (power unit) won't be as powerfull as today's engine alone. And that additional 160bhp will only be available for about half of a lap.

Plus the downforce of the cars should be reduced (slimmer front wings, no beam wings, no blown diffusers, way lower noses). Also the cars will be little bit heavier (not 100% sure about that, but I think I read it somewhere)

I can't see how 2014 cars could not be slower than what we have now.

[Umbria]

My whole point is that the sport has changed! The FIA engages in issues that have no place for the premier motor racing series.

[brembo man]

Not necessarily, The FIA is always trying to make the cars a bit slower but the engineers and designers get the speed back pretty quick, and more torgue at lower rpm will make the cars a little more difficult to drive out of slower corners especially in wet conditions as the rear wheels will spin up easier, but the best (and smoothest) drivers will benefit, I don't think there will be a significant change in lap times and in a year or two the times will be back to where we are now...

Wasn't engine mapping the quick cure for reducing torque so the slippery corners were easier to get arund without wheel spin?

[Tobes]

But these are the facts:

Now
Engine: +-800bhp
KERS: 80bhp for 6 seconds per lap

2014
Expected power of the turbo engine alone: 600bhp
ERS: 160bhp for 33 seconds per lap.

Next year the engine and ERS together (power unit) won't be as powerfull as today's engine alone. And that additional 160bhp will only be available for about half of a lap.

Plus the downforce of the cars should be reduced (slimmer front wings, no beam wings, no blown diffusers, way lower noses). Also the cars will be little bit heavier (not 100% sure about that, but I think I read it somewhere)

I can't see how 2014 cars could not be slower than what we have now.

I thought the current engines were pushing about 750bhp, the new engines are very capable of doing the same but they will only be able to run at about 600bhp due to the fuel restrictions, the fuel flow rate and the 15,000rpm limit although that will be increased to 761bhp when the ERS is used for the allowed 33secs a lap, I read somewhere that we will also have new 8 speed gearboxes too to help with the fuel consumption, think the cars could be a tad slower in the slow corners, but that will not be noticable at all, and I do think the top speeds (with the reduction in aero, ERS, and DRS) will not be enough to notice a difference either...

I think there is an automatic 'knee-jerk' reaction to the change in engines, I remember when we lost the V12's and everyone said Formula 1 wouldn't be the same, then 10yrs later the V10's were changed to V8's and the same uproar ensued, but in reality the spectacle of F1 has remained much the same, and global viewing figures have increased, I have a déjà vu feeling now, obviously all this is speculative but history would suggest the cars will actually remain much the same performance wise and all this will be forgotten when the cars hit the track in 2014...

[Tobes]

Wasn't engine mapping the quick cure for reducing torque so the slippery corners were easier to get arund without wheel spin?

Yeah, but the rules only stated that 0% throttle had to be 0% power, 50% throttle had to be 50% power and 100% throttle had to be 100% power, the problem with that was there was no rules to govern 1% - 49% and 51% -99% of throttle hence the use of throttle maps within those parameters to reduce wheelspin, I believe that has now been addressed and loophole shut...

[Kyss4k]

I thought the current engines were pushing about 750bhp, the new engines are very capable of doing the same but they will only be able to run at about 600bhp due to the fuel restrictions, the fuel flow rate and the 15,000rpm limit although that will be increased to 761bhp when the ERS is used for the allowed 33secs a lap, I read somewhere that we will also have new 8 speed gearboxes too to help with the fuel consumption, think the cars could be a tad slower in the slow corners, but that will not be noticable at all, and I do think the top speeds (with the reduction in aero, ERS, and DRS) will not be enough to notice a difference either...

I think there is an automatic 'knee-jerk' reaction to the change in engines, I remember when we lost the V12's and everyone said Formula 1 wouldn't be the same, then 10yrs later the V10's were changed to V8's and the same uproar ensued, but in reality the spectacle of F1 has remained much the same, and global viewing figures have increased, I have a déjà vu feeling now, obviously all this is speculative but history would suggest the cars will actually remain much the same performance wise and all this will be forgotten when the cars hit the track in 2014...

750bhp was the beginning. There is somewhere a table with development of the current Ferrari V8 and the 2011 spec was producing about 780bhp. And yes, the new engines are restricted to produce about 600bhp and that is really bad (compared to what we have now). ERS for only 33 secs will not replace those 180-200bhp lost. I don't think it's and knee jerk reaction... Looking at the data, it is just way worse than V8s. Clearly not what "F1 turbo engine" should be.

[NickEice]

We can't just look at the Horsepower numbers. After all, horsepower is a function of Torque and engine speed. You would expect nothing less from an engine that revs much lower than current regulations. I've heard that the torque produced, especially at lower revs will be greater, leading to more power on corner exit. With faster corner exit and lower top end we should see speed trap velocity at basically the same spot.

[Aberracus]

The torque an electric motor can produce is just phenomenal, lighting starts are coming fast. I really trust the brilliant people in F1 teams to give us cars at least as fast as the ones ww have today and with time, these mix with electricity will give us something very special, i'm sure. Do't forget either that 33 secs is gonna be on a lot of circuits enough for great acceleration exiting curves and in the straights.

[NickEice]

I agree Aberracus, I am actually very excited about the new formula. I just hope the engine still sounds good!

[Tobes]

The torque an electric motor can produce is just phenomenal, lighting starts are coming fast.

That would be the case if ERS can be used at the start, at the moment the KERS can only be activated at 100kph and above, I wasn't aware that was to change...

[Kyss4k]

We can't just look at the Horsepower numbers. After all, horsepower is a function of Torque and engine speed. You would expect nothing less from an engine that revs much lower than current regulations. I've heard that the torque produced, especially at lower revs will be greater, leading to more power on corner exit. With faster corner exit and lower top end we should see speed trap velocity at basically the same spot.

High torque and lower downforce... I can imagine we will see much more wheelspin and sliding out of corners, but saying that, I can't see how it will help to beat today's lap times.

I just want F1 cars to be monsters, the absolute top. Horsepower is essential and damn, those 600 are just not doing it for me.

[NickEice]

High torque and lower downforce... I can imagine we will see much more wheelspin and sliding out of corners, but saying that, I can't see how it will help to beat today's lap times.

I just want F1 cars to be monsters, the absolute top. Horsepower is essential and damn, those 600 are just not doing it for me.

Or perhaps we will see more innovative mechanical engineering and reduce the effect aero has had in the sport.

[NickEice]

And maybe it'll make the drivers lives harder and we will see racing again without tires and DRS having a bigger impact on the outcome instead of driver skill.

[Kyss4k]

And maybe it'll make the drivers lives harder and we will see racing again without tires and DRS having a bigger impact on the outcome instead of driver skill.

That will probably happen. But it doesn't mean, that won't make the cars any faster. As you said, we can only hope the engineers will come up with something...

[piglett]

The movement of this green energy approach to F1 is nonsense! What is the benefit? If someone says it's to advance technology for leaner burning engines, then go to Le Mans and use that venue, stay out of F1. The FIA is screwing up the sport with their overreach. Real F1 fans want the sound of V12 engines, instead we are now concerned with saving fuel??? Give me a break!

This is so very true. Car manufacturers are producing very heavy cars with small engines and marketing them to be highly economic. There's simply no way a 1,5 ton car with a 1,6L turbo engine gets better millage istead of a 1 ton car with a 2 litre+ engine. Unfortunately FIA has brought this thesis to Formula 1. There's nothing to gain from these changes. Over the years they kept taking out downforce, engine displacement, traction control... all of witch made for a quiker car where it mattered: CORNERING.
Back on topic now: yes, power will be slightly lower, however torque will be more and across a wider rpm range. That should get, at least, similar lap times. However the never-ending quest of reducing downforce will kill the laptimes. I could find anything on the projected boost levels for these engines.
Anyone care's to make a quess?
I think it will be on the 2-3 bar range for the race.

[Dino]

High torque and lower downforce... I can imagine we will see much more wheelspin and sliding out of corners, but saying that, I can't see how it will help to beat today's lap times.

I just want F1 cars to be monsters, the absolute top. Horsepower is essential and damn, those 600 are just not doing it for me.

+1
GP2 Series
Power Output: 612 hp (456 kW; 620 PS) @ 10,000 rpm.
Weight: 688 kg (1,517 lb) (Driver onboard).

[Nick Singer]

The movement of this green energy approach to F1 is nonsense! What is the benefit? If someone says it's to advance technology for leaner burning engines, then go to Le Mans and use that venue, stay out of F1. The FIA is screwing up the sport with their overreach. Real F1 fans want the sound of V12 engines, instead we are now concerned with saving fuel??? Give me a break!

Welcome to the wonderful world of political correctness, diversity, sustainability, eco-friendliness, multi-culturalism, equality, tree-hugging, climate change, badger-cuddling and overweening state control...

Pfft!

[brembo man]

Welcome to the wonderful world of political correctness, diversity, sustainability, eco-friendliness, multi-culturalism, equality, tree-hugging, climate change, badger-cuddling and overweening state control...

Pfft!

You left out one important reason, the $$$$billions in incentives given out around the world to most any organization, in this case the FIA, that shows there working towards all the above! The big shots probably live off that money.