Pirelli tyre situation - All discussion here

[sagi58]

Bernie is now saying its not Pirelli's fault for the private test, its all on Mercedes, they should of said no. He said if you were to offer me stolen goods, it's up to me to decide whether I want to accept them or not...

So... Ecclestone is comparing Pirelli to robbers?

[Nero Horse]

I wish I could be a fly on the wall when the meeting between Merc and FIA takes place next week. It's going to be very nasty indeed I think, along with finger pointing and mud throwing. I'm so glad that Ferrari is not involved in this.

[mirafiori]

I wish I could be a fly on the wall when the meeting between Merc and FIA takes place next week. It's going to be very nasty indeed I think, along with finger pointing and mud throwing. I'm so glad that Ferrari is not involved in this.

What I would like to know who will be representing the FIA.

[FrankAlfa]

For Pirelli, Paul Hembery is the their BIG problem. His actions and direction to have Pirelli Engineers doing the things they have done for the past few years in Formula One with the extreme changes tire compounds and construction, is a HUGE ERROR on his part!!!!

Pirelli Spa now has very BAD PRESS and IS GIVING A VERY POOR IMPRESSION to the public about the company which ALL the direct result of this one "British Bloke" poorly leading the sporting side of this company. Certainly Pirelli should have been more measured and a bit more conservative in the product they are producing for Formula One. They started out well but their acts now are to influential and extreme. Pirelli certainly does not need the track testing of a current F1 Car to find out the duribility of a specific tire construction and compound. This is what laboratories are for and they certainly could have purchased and used a 2 year old car with no other teams involved! Dynamic Load is Dynamic Load!!!!!!!!!!

This is all down to one, very poor manager in charge and that man is PAUL HEMBERY!!!! I SAY FIRE HIM IMMEDIATELY AND HAVE SOMEONE FROM CORPORATE COME IN TO CLEAN UP THE MESS! I am sick of these incompetent people!!!!!!!!!

[sagi58]

... Pirelli certainly does not need the track testing of a current F1 Car to find out the duribility of a specific tire construction and compound...

As proven by Pirelli themselves when all the had to do, to make the tires "safe" was change the glue!!
That's what I would have suggested and I am NOT mechanically inclined!!

[wisepie]

As proven by Pirelli themselves when all the had to do, to make the tires "safe" was change the glue!!
That's what I would have suggested and I am NOT mechanically inclined!!

A very valid point and I'm definitely smelling several rats over the Merc tests now, the FIA had better take the appropriate action.

[Nova]

So may I ask..Just what would be "appropriate action"?

I have to also ask..what were the people involved in this thinking? Did they think no one would ever find out? Kidden, right?
So, knowing they are going to be seen, why in the world use a current car? Why would Pirelli ALLOW them to use a current car?
Didnt someone think about the consequences of these actions? Did they actually think they would get away with it? I mean, it doesnt take a genius...Would they have gotten away w/it if they used a 2013 chassis cloaked in 2011 bodywork? Or did they actually use a 2014 chassis cloaked in 2013 bodywork? Im simply amazed at the thought process that mustve went into the decision making here.

[Senna4Ever]

Still waitin' on Dr. Marko to complain about Pirellis awful tires and poor Vettel to Bit his Bull all over the place.

[wisepie]

Appropriate action to me means that Merc as a team should have a penalty, rather than the drivers, quite what it should be is open to suggestion, but I don't think banning them from the WCC this year is too heavy a penalty.

[sagi58]

... I have to also ask..what were the people involved in this thinking? Did they think no one would ever find out?
... Did they actually think they would get away with it? I mean, it doesnt take a genius...

You're not alone in wondering just how Mercedes/Pirelli thought they'd get away with this testing!!
It would seem that the level of security surrounding the whole event has red flags waving!!

As a point of interest, a former racing driver, Pius Gasso, lives near the track they were using.
The day that Ferrari were there, he was able to get pictures to post them online; however, even
he wasn't able to get anywhere near the track the day Mercedes was there!!

The following is a relevant excerpt:

...Apparently nicknamed the ‘all-seeing eye' by friends on the Spanish motor racing scene, he knows the people
who work at the circuit, he knows how to get in - and he knows how to get spy photos that 007 would be proud of.

It was Pius who grabbed a few shots of the Ferrari test, which emerged on the web, but attracted very little comment.
Old F1 cars are often in action for filming and so on, and it didn't seem to be of interest for the simple reason that no-one
expected Pirelli to be running full-on F1 tire tests, ‘secret' or otherwise."

The Mercedes test was a different story. Despite his best efforts in the end Pius could get only a snatch of audio of an F1
car going round, along with some fuzzy snaps from a hillside some two kilometres distance away.

There's more on the SPEED website: http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sp...#ixzz2WCwnQzpi

[sagi58]

Appropriate action to me means that Merc as a team should have a penalty, rather than the drivers...

Definitely agree with you that Mercedes should have a penalty!
However, the drivers are just as "guilty" because they are part of the team!!

After all, they "knew" the following:

: in-season testing has been banned for this season;
: this wasn't a promotional shoot with "only" 100km of driving;
: the media was nowhere to be seen, nor were they invited;
: they themselves weren't wearing their regular helmets;
: enough to tweet that they were on the other side of the world!!

[Nova]

The drivers are paid to drive. We pay you, you drive when, where, we tell you to.
A driver is an employee. They shouldnt be penalized. Besides, whatever happens to the team will
affect the drivers, directly or indirectly.

[sagi58]

Though I agree with you about the employer/employee relationship, if an employer expressly asks you to "break the law", should you not refuse to commit the act? Which leads me to believe that the following article is true:

Mercedes to reveal FIA email that gave them 'permission to test'

Mercedes will turn the tables on the FIA at Thursday's hearing in Paris by producing written evidence that they had permission to test Pirelli's tyres.
Both Mercedes and the Italian tyre firm will be in the dock after the Formula One's governing body decided they had a case to answer following their three-day, 1,000km test in Barcelona after last month's Spanish Grand Prix. The test enraged the other teams, particularly Red Bull. Contrary to FIA regulations, Mercedes used their current 2013 car rather than one at least two years old, as favoured by Ferrari in another testing session. But Mercedes are ready to play their trump card, in the form of an FIA email – allegedly from their race director and safety delegate, Charlie Whiting – granting them permission to test...

more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013...a-hearing-test

[DIEK]

[Alessandra]

Though I agree with you about the employer/employee relationship, if an employer expressly asks you to "break the law", should you not refuse to commit the act? Which leads me to believe that the following article is true:

Re. above mentioned article on Charlie Whiting's email to Mercedes giving them permission to use 2013 car, do we know when Whiting is supposed to have given permission, did he have any right to change the rule as understood by all the other teams in a way that wold obviously benefit Mercedes, can he individually make that decision, why has Mercedes only now said that it would present this information on Thursday this week?
The list of questions goes on and things get more and more concerning for Mercedes the current team, for Mercedes the providers of motors for other teams and for massively respected individuals within F1 such as Brawn and Whiting personally.

[DIEK]

We wants Whiting's head!!

[sagi58]

Re. above mentioned article on Charlie Whiting's email to Mercedes giving them permission to use 2013 car, do we know when Whiting is supposed to have given permission, did he have any right to change the rule as understood by all the other teams in a way that wold obviously benefit Mercedes, can he individually make that decision, why has Mercedes only now said that it would present this information on Thursday this week?
The list of questions goes on and things get more and more concerning for Mercedes the current team, for Mercedes the providers of motors for other teams and for massively respected individuals within F1 such as Brawn and Whiting personally.

You've brought up the same questions that came to mind when I first read it!!

Besides the timing of the "permission" and the "authority" Whiting may or may not have,
unless the message is in PDF format, there is no way to know if it's been tampered with!
It's possible that "if" it does exist, Whiting has a copy in his sent folder! It could be deleted, too!

I have no clue as to why Mercedes is just now referring to this email!! The only thing
that comes to mind is that they were hoping to use it as their ace in the hole, when they
get to the Tribunal. It's possible that they realized they were being tried and found guilty
in the press and decided, mentioning it now is "damage limitation"?

And, you're absolutely right, the more time passes, the more questions come to light,
which make Mercedes look very much in the wrong. Only time will tell!!

[FrankAlfa]

My feeling is as follows:

1) If Charlie Whiting sent an email to Ross Brawn giving him "Permission" to use the 2013 Race Car in a 1000 km private test with their race drivers, which clearly is Against The Sporting Regulations and Grossly Unfair to all other Teams in the Sport of Formula One, THEN CHARLIE WHITING SHOULD BE RELIEVED OF HIS DUTIES IMMEDIATELY FOR INCOMPETENCE AND DISREPUTE TO THE SPORT AND THE OTHER TEAMS IN FORMULA ONE!

2) The FIA should direct Pirelli to immediately start work on a new 2014' tires which have NO similarities to the tires tested by Mercedes. Notwithstanding, The Current tires should not be modified and onl;y the FIA has the right to decide on tires are to be used for all GP races for the remainder of the year. Because of the actions by Pirelli, Pirelli will only make and provide tires that the FIA requests and once constructed,Pirelli will no longer have a say in which tire will be used.

3) The FIA has the task of deciding what how to respond to the actions of the Mercedes Team. Regardless of the approvsal by Charlie Whiting, they deliberately broke the rules and fully understood that taking part in this test session was a clear violation of both the written rules and the "Spirit" of the intent of the rules. The FIA should penalize both the Team for the remaonder of ther year and its Drivers points gained illegally illegal data gained from the test. Whether or not the the other teams have a chance to test as the Mercedes team have done is not relevent and not linear to amount of time the Mercedes team has already been afforded in understanding the the behavior of the tires and to not only equal but also surpass the other teams in tire development understanding and solution finding.

[Senna4Ever]

Can you help a little bit as I don' know the purpose of this comparison?
What should it say or offer ... maybe it is to early for my brain ...

[Stormsearcher]

Slightly off topic, but still on tyres....
How will the tyre choices for the next 3 races as released by Pirelli affect our car?

Will it favour us or is it favouring the bulls?

[vcs316]

Slightly off topic, but still on tyres....
How will the tyre choices for the next 3 races as released by Pirelli affect our car?

Will it favour us or is it favouring the bulls?

Lotus angry at conservative Pirelli
ESPN Staff
June 16, 2013

Lotus trackside operations director Alan Permane has criticised Pirelli for being "too conservative" with its tyre compounds for the next three races.

Pirelli will supply the medium and hard compound tyres - the hardest selection available - for both the British and Hungarian grands prix. That's despite the soft tyre being paired with the hard at Silverstone last year, and the medium and soft compounds at the Hungaroring.

Although Pirelli's tyre compounds are softer across the range this year, Permane says Pirelli's choice for Hungary especially is wrong.

"It's unusual to take the same tyres to Hungary as to Bahrain and Silverstone," Permane told the BBC. "We didn't have those tyres last year. We had medium and soft last year and people did two stops. So it absolutely doesn't make sense - they're too hard for that track."

Permane added that Pirelli appeared to be going against its own stated aims by being so conservative, saying it still impacts on the championship in one way or another.

"They went softer to try to encourage more pit stops. There's no point in them going softer with the tyres if they're just going to take different harder tyres everywhere. This is exactly what they did in the last few races of last year. They brought harder and harder tyres and we just ended up doing one stop.

"And last year they said they didn't want to interfere in the championship so they took conservative tyres, but I never really understood what that meant."

[Hornet]

Wow, is Pirelli trying to be a jerk here? They are not allowed to change the compound, so they bring harder compound instead

Why does Hungary track need the hardest compound? It's a slow track like Montreal

[sagi58]

Wow, is Pirelli trying to be a jerk here?...

Payback, eh? I still don't believe that Pirelli should be making the choices for each race!!
This shows they aren't above manipulation! Time for Pirelli to lose this "responsibility".

If Pirelli stay on as the tire manufacturer, then that's their job: to make the tires!
If the teams/drivers aren't allowed to decide which tires they use, then the FIA should
take that job on and decide which tires are brought to which track!

[Kiwi Nick]

Payback, eh? I still don't believe that Pirelli should be making the choices for each race!!
This shows they aren't above manipulation! Time for Pirelli to lose this "responsibility".

If Pirelli stay on as the tire manufacturer, then that's their job: to make the tires!
If the teams/drivers aren't allowed to decide which tires they use, then the FIA should
take that job on and decide which tires are brought to which track!

I have always been of the opinion that the teams should be allowed to decide which tires to race on, so long as they use two compounds per race. Within the regulations set down by the FIA, the teams make adjustments and modifications to their care according to their opinions to satisfy their strategy. Why then should the decision on what tire works best at any given track be left up to someone else. Assuming that the tires made by Pirelli are safe and consistent, the teams should be allowed to choose. Of course they would have to indicate in advance which tires they wanted to use, so that Pirelli has time to produce the tires.

[Tony]

Can you help a little bit as I don' know the purpose of this comparison?
What should it say or offer ... maybe it is to early for my brain ...

I think it just shows that most people were on a 3 stopper in Australia and by Montreal they were on a 2 stopper.... probably just reinforces the point that track characteristics have a lot to do with tyre management... or maybe he's trying to demonstrate Pirelli made changes to their tyres.... not sure lol....

[Tony]

I have always been of the opinion that the teams should be allowed to decide which tires to race on, so long as they use two compounds per race. Within the regulations set down by the FIA, the teams make adjustments and modifications to their care according to their opinions to satisfy their strategy. Why then should the decision on what tire works best at any given track be left up to someone else. Assuming that the tires made by Pirelli are safe and consistent, the teams should be allowed to choose. Of course they would have to indicate in advance which tires they wanted to use, so that Pirelli has time to produce the tires.

I like the fact that Lotus is calling out Pirelli on this, Pirelli is affecting the championship with their actions (whether intentional or not).... I only wish Ferrari were more vocal as I'm tired of Mercedes and especially Red Bull whinging and getting their way....

[wisepie]

The logistics of allowing each team to choose whatever compounds they want for each race is probably too difficult for Pirelli to accommodate, but it surely isn't fair that they get to decide what tyres are to be used at a given race when performance is affected so much. There's too much room for Pirelli's choice to influence any particular team's likelihood of success, thereby raising the question of favouring that team.

[Kiwi Nick]

The logistics of allowing each team to choose whatever compounds they want for each race is probably too difficult for Pirelli to accommodate, but it surely isn't fair that they get to decide what tyres are to be used at a given race when performance is affected so much. There's too much room for Pirelli's choice to influence any particular team's likelihood of success, thereby raising the question of favouring that team.

I think Pirelli are big enough to solve the logistic problem if the teams were required to select their tires 3 races in advance. Another way to take chicanery out of the equation would be for Pirelli to announce the entire calendar's tire choices at the beginning of the season and let it ride. At least it would be constant and not inclined to move in favor of one team or another based on results, influence, Bernie's desire to tighten up the competition, or whatever.

[DIEK]

Can you help a little bit as I don' know the purpose of this comparison?
What should it say or offer ... maybe it is to early for my brain ...

The tyres of Australia & Canada are not the same tyres, or temperature of the track change a lot in each track...

[sagi58]

I think Pirelli are big enough to solve the logistic problem if the teams were required to select their tires 3 races in advance. Another way to take chicanery out of the equation would be for Pirelli to announce the entire calendar's tire choices at the beginning of the season and let it ride. At least it would be constant and not inclined to move in favor of one team or another based on results, influence, Bernie's desire to tighten up the competition, or whatever.

Too true!! If Pirelli can't handle the "work", I'm sure someone else will step forward to take on this prestigious position, with all its "drawbacks"!

To be honest, after this "just add a little more glue" fiasco, I'm not sure Pirelli can handle F1!!

Great idea to give teams the option to choose from in advance, so Pirelli can have them at each race!!

By the way, is there any reason why the FIA or even a team of ex-drivers can't choose the tires??