Pirelli tyre situation - All discussion here

[gjoko-mkd]

F1 2013 – Stefano Domenicali wants a Ferrari test

Ferrari team boss Stefano Domenicali says Ferrari lodged a complaint about the Mercedes/Pirelli test because Ferrari wants a test their selves.

“Just to make the story very short we lodged a protest because it’s basically the only way to understand the clarification of the regulation where you have a doubt,” Domenicali said. “For us it was not in doubt that it was the 2013 car and – as written in the regulation 22.1 – it’s not possible to use the previous two year’s cars during the season for any kind of activity. Said Domenicali

“Therefore that was our opinion and we just want to know if this is possible. If this is possible we will be the first to raise our arms to make sure we can do the same because as you know Ferrari has always been very pushy to try to do in-season testing on the track and this is the reason why we wanted to understand the situation, no more than that.

“If the decision will be opposite of what we believe is the right interpretation on our side then we will need to react immediately and ask for this to happen, I would say yes we would want to do something.”

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/vi..._Ferrari_test/

[Dino]

Stefano Domenicali wants a Ferrari test,
Great Stefano,and make sure we will test every other new part too while we are at it...
But don't forget that the new Merc cheaters have already tested the new tyres that where supposed to be tried in FP1 in Canada!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kiwi Nick]

Now, EVERY team needs to insist that they be given the opportunity for 1000km of testing on the new Pirelli tires scheduled to be introduced in Canada. And it needs to be done before Canada. If that cannot be accomplished, Merc needs to sit out until every team has tested or declined to test.

[mirafiori]

Pirelli say 1000 KM was tested, now is that for one car, or if it is both that's 2000 KM. Also Ross Brawn said, the tyres were unmarked, so we did not know what we were testing, I'm sorry but I don't buy that, surely you have enough intelligence within the testing team, who were at Barcelona,( the Mercedes tyre experts ) surely would know even unmarked what is soft, medium, hard, etc. If not the drivers would know after a few laps, come on people wake up and smell the coffee.

[Dino]

Lauda: I’ve bet €50 with Marko we will escape penalty for secret test

“There will certainly be a penalty, because Mercedes’ tyre advantage in Monaco was obvious,” Marko [Red Bull] is quoted by Bild newspaper. ”There is also a question of cost, because such a test costs nearly a million euros.”

Another factor, said Marko, is the long-life engine rule, with Mercedes’ three race distances at the secret test supposedly now excluded from its allocation of eight engines per driver.

“There is a long list of things,” said the outspoken Austrian. ”We also want to have this test. Logistically, it can only happen at Silverstone, which means that we have lost two races until we have the same knowledge.”

Mercedes chairman Niki Lauda, meanwhile, is accusing Red Bull of sour grapes.

http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/28/la...r-secret-test/

[Kyss4k]

Wow, and I thought Red Bull guys were dirty manipulators... Lauda, Wolff and Brawn took it to a completely different level. I am feeling sick from that.

[fadyferrari]

Lauda: I’ve bet €50 with Marko we will escape penalty for secret test

“There will certainly be a penalty, because Mercedes’ tyre advantage in Monaco was obvious,” Marko [Red Bull] is quoted by Bild newspaper. ”There is also a question of cost, because such a test costs nearly a million euros.”

Another factor, said Marko, is the long-life engine rule, with Mercedes’ three race distances at the secret test supposedly now excluded from its allocation of eight engines per driver.

“There is a long list of things,” said the outspoken Austrian. ”We also want to have this test. Logistically, it can only happen at Silverstone, which means that we have lost two races until we have the same knowledge.”

Mercedes chairman Niki Lauda, meanwhile, is accusing Red Bull of sour grapes.



http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/05/28/la...r-secret-test/

well,niki has a habit of spewing rubbish.....his statements are just gonna bring the hammer down on merc even harder......

[giodap]

News/Mercedes Under Increasing Scrutiny
Mercedes under increasing scrutiny
Last Updated: May 28 2013, 17:54 BST

A further three teams have criticised Mercedes for joining with Pirelli in what they believe was an illegal in-season test earlier this month.

Mercedes: Criticised by other teams
Related ContentFull F1 news index2013 F1 schedule2013 F1 standingsFree £10 bet on F1
Lotus, Force India and Marussia have weighed into the debate over Mercedes' decision to join forces with the Italian tyre manufacturer for a 1,000 kilometre test at the Circuit de Catalunya in Barcelona between May 15 and 17, three days after the Spanish Grand Prix.

Formula One's sporting regulations state only a two-year-old car piloted by a test driver can be used for such purposes, yet Mercedes employed their current model and with regular drivers Lewis Hamilton and Nico Rosberg at the wheel.

Red Bull and Ferrari were the only teams to lodge a protest after news of the tyre test broke ahead of Sunday's Monaco Grand Prix, but support is now beginning to emerge from elsewhere in the paddock.

Mercedes are waiting to hear from the FIA whether a report from the Monaco Grand Prix stewards will result in a hearing of the governing body's International Tribunal (IT).

Mercedes and Pirelli maintain their innocence. Mercedes insist no new car parts were tested, while Pirelli says the German team were not granted access to information on the tyres being run.

Mercedes further claim that the FIA gave them permission to undertake the test, although the governing body maintains its approval was conditional on other teams being offered the chance to take part.

It is becoming increasingly clear that the overwhelming majority of the F1 paddock is lined up against Mercedes, although as the initial complainants only Red Bull and Ferrari would stand in opposition should a hearing be called.

The reluctance of the other teams to support the official protest was met with a tart response by Red Bull team principal Christian Horner, who said: "They all say 'We're behind you'... just four miles further back."

Lotus team principal Eric Boullier was one of those asked to join with the protest but opted against doing so, yet he is in no doubt Mercedes are in breach of the regulations.

"Our position is there is a sporting regulation in place, there is even a testing agreement in place between the teams, and what took place is a breach of the sporting code," said Boullier.

"Whatever permission was given, it should be allowed to everybody - or at least to make everybody aware - and not to test alone somewhere."

Asked whether Mercedes would have gained any advantage, Boullier replied: "Sure, you can gain any advantage by doing this.

"If they did it, I think it was mainly because they thought they could have an advantage, but it is more about the breach of the sporting code."

What appears to have angered most of the teams is that none of them were made aware of the test until it leaked out in a Grand Prix Drivers' Association meeting in Monaco on Friday.

Force India deputy team principal Bob Fernley said: "If you are going to do a test you need to be transparent about it. It's not going to do you any favours by trying to do something you are going to be caught out on. Even if it's right, it's not helpful."

Backmarkers Marussia have also been angered by what they perceive to be clear rule-breaking.

"My understanding is we're not allowed to test in season and from what I understand, that was an in-season test," Marussia sporting director Graeme Lowdon said.

"I'm sure it will be investigated with the vigour required."

The controversy appears destined to be settled by the FIA's IT hearing, comprised of a 12-man panel presided over by Edwin Glasgow QC, a member of the Bar in England for over 40 years.

FIA statutes dictate Glasgow must appoint a judging panel of at least three members, with one designated as the president of the hearing.

Should Mercedes ultimately be found guilty of a breach of the rules, the range of available punishments include a reprimand, fine, points deduction, race ban or even exclusion from the championship.

[fadyferrari]

can imagine ROSS doing the facepalm whenever niki or toto give out statements to the media...lol

[giodap]

Good job force india have sided with us. I thought maybe because there a customer of mercedes they might keep their mouth shut

[Dino]

Inevitably the speculation is that Mercedes didn’t just try tyres in Barcelona, but also its own components. It’s even been suggested that the team ran a gearbox with revised suspension geometry in attempt to get to the bottom of its tyre problems. However a Mercedes spokesman says that no new parts were tried, and it was only about tyres.

This story is far from over yet…

http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/05/28/a...wapping-teams/

[Kiwi Nick]

To keep this in perspective, coming to grips with the tires is the most important aspect of developing these cars. Based on performance up to Monaco, it was clear that Merc had a huge problem. They were very fast but after about 6 laps they were yesterday's lunch. Suddenly, after their private test, they were able to keep their edge in speed and run at the front while suffer no more degradation than other cars. They found the genie during that testing session and it can't be put back in the bottle.

So, how do you deal with an offense that cannot be returned to its prior state? Harshly, and the magnitude of the punishment should fit the magnitude of the crime. If we agree that understanding the tires is the most important aspect of developing the current F1 cars, then the punishment must be the most severe.

[Nero Horse]

well,niki has a habit of spewing rubbish.....his statements are just gonna bring the hammer down on merc even harder......

True, Niki does have a bad habit of talking all kinds of rubbish. He's a great Ferrari legend and I will always respect him for that, but his antics and BS talk have definitely tarnished his reputation through the years. Sometimes it's just unbelievable what kind of incoherent crap he talks.

[Nero Horse]

Marko: “There will certainly be a penalty, because Mercedes’ tyre advantage in Monaco was obvious,”

For once I agree with that old fool about something.

[Greig]

For once I agree with that old fool about something.

Merc ran at a snails pace and it only worked due to the track, they had the same tyre issues in reality, we even heard the radio telling Lewis to stop trying to race as the tyres would not last.

[Nero Horse]

Merc ran at a snails pace and it only worked due to the track, they had the same tyre issues in reality, we even heard the radio telling Lewis to stop trying to race as the tyres would not last.

We shall see in Canada exactly how much did they gain thanks to that tyre test, that is of course if they're still around by that time. They definitely must've gained something after doing 1000 kms of tyre tests.

[shamim179]

I don't think their tyre issues have been completely solved but they the drivers that is seem to manage the tyres better - that is a pattern has been found out to minimize the degradation by combining slower and faster laps. It can be argued that such knowledge was gained from this tyre test. Mercedes will have a difficult time defending their case as it appears.

[Greig]

We shall see in Canada exactly how much did they gain thanks to that tyre test, that is of course if they're still around by that time. They definitely must've gained something after doing 1000 kms of tyre tests.

Pirelli said they tested 90% 2014 spec tyres, and had no idea about the other 10% I really don't think they have gained anything major on tyres, but they do have 1000kms of extra car testing.

[Nero Horse]

Pirelli said they tested 90% 2014 spec tyres, and had no idea about the other 10% I really don't think they have gained anything major on tyres, but they do have 1000kms of extra car testing.

Well, any 1000 km test with 2013 spec cars would give any team quite substantial performance gains I would imagine. So it's completely unfair, even if they didn't test this year's tyres, because they still gathered some important data during that test and therefore they should definitely be penalized for that.

[Dino]

Pirelli said they tested 90% 2014 spec tyres, and had no idea about the other 10% I really don't think they have gained anything major on tyres, but they do have 1000kms of extra car testing.

Will 900kms on the 2014 tyres at Barcelona teach Mercedes nothing for their 2014 car?
Do you believe that the new Canada spec tyres where not tested during those 1000kms?
And are the Merc engineers not smart enough to know which these tyres are?
Is that not gaining data that all other Teams will maybe have on the 7th. June [if it does'nt rain!]
Is it fair if other parts where tested [gearbox with revised suspension geometry] as rumoured,
Will this engine that has done 1000kms [3 races] be one of the 8 allowed?

[Tobes]

Well, any 1000 km test with 2013 spec cars would give any team quite substantial performance gains I would imagine. So it's completely unfair, even if they didn't test this year's tyres, because they still gathered some important data during that test and therefore they should definitely be penalized for that.

The reality is we don't actually know if Mercedes got 'substantial performance gains', but in truth I can't see it, Barcelona is a completely different character of track compared to Monaco, and Canada is very similar to Monaco, so Canada won't tell us if they actually gained anything from the 'test', to make an educated guess we'll have to wait till Silverstone...

I honestly don't believe Mercedes can have learned much, I don't think they were particuarly fast in Monaco, they just held everyone up as it is very hard to pass and I don't think Vettel tried too hard to win the race, he had to conserve tires and didn't really attack Nico, he was clearly happy to get the points and extend his lead in the WDC, the safety cars and red flag definately helped Nico and if Lewis could judge six seconds a bit better he'd have finished behind Nico...

I do think we may be flattering Mercedes by thinking their pace has dramatically increased when in fact Vettel and Webber didn't try very hard, Red Bull happy with second and third (as Nico is not viewed as a serious title contender) and Alonso had a damaged floor and bits of another car stuck in his front wing, in Monaco aero is the vital hence was slower than would have otherwise been...

All that said, I do think they have pushed the limit of the 'sporting regulations' beyond it's acceptable limit and should be punished accordingly, obviously Nico and Lewis conducting a 1000km test is going to make them both more comfortable in the car (which is exactly what Lewis has been complaining about) I just don't think they gained any significant advantage with regards the tires...

[Nero Horse]

The reality is we don't actually know if Mercedes got 'substantial performance gains', but in truth I can't see it, Barcelona is a completely different character of track compared to Monaco, and Canada is very similar to Monaco, so Canada won't tell us if they actually gained anything from the 'test', to make an educated guess we'll have to wait till Silverstone...

Well like I said, ANY 1000 km test is too much of a benefit for any team to have, while in-season testing is banned and other teams have to make do with simulators only. And if Merc couldn't get any performance gains from that test then they must be idiots, cause any top team would relish the opportunity to test their car in a 1000 km test run and you can bet your bottom dollar that there would be at least some performance gains. A 1000 km test equals 3 races worth of important data gathered on the whole car and that's a huge bonus for any team. Merc does have an unfair advantage now, there's no question about it.

[Ferris]

The reality is we don't actually know if Mercedes got 'substantial performance gains', but in truth I can't see it, Barcelona is a completely different character of track compared to Monaco, and Canada is very similar to Monaco, so Canada won't tell us if they actually gained anything from the 'test', to make an educated guess we'll have to wait till Silverstone...

I honestly don't believe Mercedes can have learned much, I don't think they were particuarly fast in Monaco, they just held everyone up as it is very hard to pass and I don't think Vettel tried too hard to win the race, he had to conserve tires and didn't really attack Nico, he was clearly happy to get the points and extend his lead in the WDC, the safety cars and red flag definately helped Nico and if Lewis could judge six seconds a bit better he'd have finished behind Nico...

I do think we may be flattering Mercedes by thinking their pace has dramatically increased when in fact Vettel and Webber didn't try very hard, Red Bull happy with second and third (as Nico is not viewed as a serious title contender) and Alonso had a damaged floor and bits of another car stuck in his front wing, in Monaco aero is the vital hence was slower than would have otherwise been...

All that said, I do think they have pushed the limit of the 'sporting regulations' beyond it's acceptable limit and should be punished accordingly, obviously Nico and Lewis conducting a 1000km test is going to make them both more comfortable in the car (which is exactly what Lewis has been complaining about) I just don't think they gained any significant advantage with regards the tires...

Very true, we wont really know what advantage they got until Silverstone.

The first test will be whether or not Pirelli do get the permission to change the tire. The second test will be MB's performance at Silverstone relative to their previous performances this year on similar tracks and that of the rest of the grid. I think if they have clearly made leaps and bounds in Silverstone it will be hard for them to state that they did not attain any advantage from the test.

Also I don't think it is as easy for us to sit here and say there would have been very little to gain from 1,000 km of running. Best to listen to the comments of the teams on this point, but I must say that if testing provided no gain then there wouldn't have been so many restrictions around it and such a big push from the teams to let them continue testing.

It is a very expensive exercise and not one you would do if there was no benefit. My view is that they clearly got an advantage from the test, that is the reason why teams want to test, the question is how much but as far as the FIA is concerned they wont be looking at the quantum of advantage in the first instance, they will only be looking at whether they broke the rules.

Some interesting times ahead...

[eugene22n]

I'm mad at Pirelli as much as Mercedes! They should have known better than to open this can of worms. You cannot test with recent cars; it's clear. I breaks a very important vow in F1. They should be excluded from the championship.

I hope Pirelli is out at the end of the year. I want Bridgestone back.

[Rosso Corsa]

I don't think trying to asses how much advantage Merc obtained from the test serves any purpose. If they finish 7th and 8th in Canada because they destroy their tyres would that make everything okay? The simple facts of any relevance to the championship are that Merc conducted a big illegal test to try and gain an advantage, and Pirelli is guilty of aiding and abetting. The actions need to be punished, not the outcomes of the actions.

Suggesting all teams should now be allowed to test 1000km is bonkers. Ferrari could afford it financially and logistically, but that does not make everything okay. For some teams those costs could be a deal breaker, but how could a team not afford to test? It's not a practical or fair solution for all. Removing Mercedes from the grid IS the fairest and most appropriate solution.

[Infi24r]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mercedes keeping Red Bull off the front row is a good thing?

Its clear they arn't really in contention for the title. Maybe they can win tracks like Monaco and Canada but on the plus side they stop vettel romping away from pole, an area the F138 is still lacking.

[mirafiori]

The reality is we don't actually know if Mercedes got 'substantial performance gains', but in truth I can't see it, Barcelona is a completely different character of track compared to Monaco, and Canada is very similar to Monaco, so Canada won't tell us if they actually gained anything from the 'test', to make an educated guess we'll have to wait till Silverstone...

I honestly don't believe Mercedes can have learned much, I don't think they were particuarly fast in Monaco, they just held everyone up as it is very hard to pass and I don't think Vettel tried too hard to win the race, he had to conserve tires and didn't really attack Nico, he was clearly happy to get the points and extend his lead in the WDC, the safety cars and red flag definately helped Nico and if Lewis could judge six seconds a bit better he'd have finished behind Nico...

I do think we may be flattering Mercedes by thinking their pace has dramatically increased when in fact Vettel and Webber didn't try very hard, Red Bull happy with second and third (as Nico is not viewed as a serious title contender) and Alonso had a damaged floor and bits of another car stuck in his front wing, in Monaco aero is the vital hence was slower than would have otherwise been...

All that said, I do think they have pushed the limit of the 'sporting regulations' beyond it's acceptable limit and should be punished accordingly, obviously Nico and Lewis conducting a 1000km test is going to make them both more comfortable in the car (which is exactly what Lewis has been complaining about) I just don't think they gained any significant advantage with regards the tires...

Well Tobes, I think you are to kind to Mercedes, to say they did not learn much from this test, in fact we will probably never know how much, they have improved there car.

[mirafiori]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mercedes keeping Red Bull off the front row is a good thing?

Its clear they arn't really in contention for the title. Maybe they can win tracks like Monaco and Canada but on the plus side they stop vettel romping away from pole, an area the F138 is still lacking.

I totally agree with you, we all know we lack performance on Saturday in qualifying, with Mercedes holding Red Bull back at the start, it gives Ferrari a chance to show its class on a Sunday. What we don't want is Mercedes to improve its tyres, to the point they qualify first and second, and then go on and win the race. That is why the recent secret test, could be a concern to us.

[Kyss4k]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mercedes keeping Red Bull off the front row is a good thing?

Its clear they arn't really in contention for the title. Maybe they can win tracks like Monaco and Canada but on the plus side they stop vettel romping away from pole, an area the F138 is still lacking.

??? Mercedes was fast over 1 lap since the beginning. That is what you are talking about. But with those 3 days of testing, they gained some knowlage, that could possibly make them fast even in the race. And that would make them championship contenders == not good.

[Infi24r]

??? Mercedes was fast over 1 lap since the beginning. That is what you are talking about. But with those 3 days of testing, they gained some knowlage, that could possibly make them fast even in the race. And that would make them championship contenders == not good.

I don't think they're contenders.

But the longer they can disrupt and even win races it gives Seb less chance imo.

He is most devastating from pole to flag.