Banned
I think the FIA is crossing all the "t"s and dotting all the "i"s, where Ferrari is concerned.Originally Posted by Massimo
By confirming year of the car Ferrari provided and who was driving it, the FIA can't be
accused ((again)) of playing favourites with Ferrari. More importantly, Mercedes will not
be able to defend themselves by insisting that Ferrari "also" tested because, as you have
stated, the two situations are completely different!!
Moderatore
A lot of stuff about this makes no sense. I guess the FIA just want to make sure Ferrari's test was on the up and up. Mercedes keeps saying the FIA gave them permission for their test, so it will be interesting to see if Mercedes produces evidence showing that. Right now it looks like the FIA has made a royal mess of things and don't really know how to clean it up.
Don't play dumb with me. I'm better at it than you are.
Moderatore
OK, apparently the Ferrari test was at Barcelona, not Bahrain, according to Autosport.
However, Ferrari has also been asked to provide details about a run that its Corse Clienti division did for Pirelli with a 2011 car at Barcelona shortly after this year's Bahrain Grand Prix.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107821
Don't play dumb with me. I'm better at it than you are.
Full Member
This should be no problem for Ferrari..Everyone knew about it..2011 car,
Ferrari driver but not 1 of the current starting F1 pilots. Wasnt secret at all.
Mercs on the other hand......
Full Member
A Ferrari spokesman said: “In reference to the numerous comments and interpretations circulated in recent days, Ferrari does not wish to make any further comment”.
Than he says: “The situation is rather straightforward [and has been] from the moment that a team broke what is a very clear regulation. The fundamental question refers to the compliance with article 22 of the sporting regulations, which does not allow the use of a current or previous year’s car for any kind of testing carried out during the season.
"This is the only substantial aspect. Everything else is irrelevant detail"
Well, If that were the only matter for the FIA to consider, it would have been case closed by now, so clearly other factors are being taken into consideration and let's hope Ferrari isn't going to look silly should this result in them being sanctioned from their own protest.
Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".
Full Member
Massimo, because Ferrari were quick to protest, hopefully means they are not concerned,from the previous tests.A Ferrari spokesman said: “In reference to the numerous comments and interpretations circulated in recent days, Ferrari does not wish to make any further comment”.
Than he says: “The situation is rather straightforward [and has been] from the moment that a team broke what is a very clear regulation. The fundamental question refers to the compliance with article 22 of the sporting regulations, which does not allow the use of a current or previous year’s car for any kind of testing carried out during the season.
"This is the only substantial aspect. Everything else is irrelevant detail"
Well, If that were the only matter for the FIA to consider, it would have been case closed by now, so clearly other factors are being taken into consideration and let's hope Ferrari isn't going to look silly should this result in them being sanctioned from their own protest.
Full Member
It's a joke that Ferrari it's dragged into this, even if Ferrari it's not guilty, they are going to use it to give Mercedes a free pass. Look we can't punish Ferrari, so we are going to give you a free pass too even if you were a little naughty.
Full Member
Or, that the FIA will use Ferrari's example to show where Mercedes went wrong. Two tests, at the same place, for the same reason, but completely different. One according to the rules and the other not.
The FIA will need proof to explain why Ferrari will not get a penalty and Mercedes (most probably) will.
My 5 cents.
Matthew
All the evidence so far suggests that Ferrari adhered to article 22 with our test. Unless we lied, which I doubt given we filed a protest, we cannot be sanctioned.A Ferrari spokesman said: “In reference to the numerous comments and interpretations circulated in recent days, Ferrari does not wish to make any further comment”.
Than he says: “The situation is rather straightforward [and has been] from the moment that a team broke what is a very clear regulation. The fundamental question refers to the compliance with article 22 of the sporting regulations, which does not allow the use of a current or previous year’s car for any kind of testing carried out during the season.
"This is the only substantial aspect. Everything else is irrelevant detail"
Well, If that were the only matter for the FIA to consider, it would have been case closed by now, so clearly other factors are being taken into consideration and let's hope Ferrari isn't going to look silly should this result in them being sanctioned from their own protest.
The FIA are not a competent authority. That's why it's not been case closed by now. The circus continues and the lion enclosure gate is wide open. Again.
Full Member
I hope you are right, but it's hard to trust FIA.
Full Member
Lewis Hamilton has commented, since the win in Monaco, more wins are on the cards. He now believes Mercedes are now understanding more of the Pirelli tyres.
Thank you Xubuntu
This one gets more and more mysterious ...
According to this article from this german website 'our' car from the clienti program wasn't old enough ... Link ... as the car must be elementary different ... and 2011 seems not elementary different enough ...
Banned
I'm confused and I can't get a translation for that page... Is the argument that the car wasn't "old" enough??
OR that the 2011 Corso Cliente car wasn't fundamentally different enough from today's F1 version??
I mean... really??Not different enough?? Are they looking at the fact that both cars are single-seaters,
have four wheels and an engine? Is that what needs to be fundamentally different?? Really??
Thank you Xubuntu
The reason why Ferrari is also part for further investigations might be an additional definition of the regulation (article 22.1?) whereas is said that the teams must use a "elementary different" car on the track. and the 2011 car (which was used by the Scuderia) might not fulfil this requirement.Dass sich Ferrari weiter im Visier der Regelhüter befindet, könnte mit einer weiteren Bestimmung der Passage zu tun haben, die besagt, dass die Teams nur mit "elementar anderen" Autos auf die Strecke dürfen - der 2011er Bolide, den die Scuderia verwendete, könnte dieser Forderung nicht gerecht geworden sein.
Banned
Thank you!! But, my question is still the same:
If a 2011 client car isn't fundamentally different to a 2013 F1 car, that would suggest that there has been no development/evolution.
Which would beg the question: what the hell are our engineers doing??
((p.s. I don't believe for one moment that the cars aren't very different!!))
Last edited by sagi58; 2nd June 2013 at 13:20.
Banned
It would seem that Pirelli has hung Mercedes out to dry,by making a few "key claims":
they were testing 2014 tires, NOT tires to be used in 2013 and all teams were offered the opportunity to test 2014 tires;
That last statement tells me they've also decided not to bow to Red Bull pressure!!
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin...3/5/14624.html
Last edited by sagi58; 2nd June 2013 at 13:40.
Religion? Ferrari!
As I said, what could be more different than completely different solution of suspension (+ directly blown diffuser,...)? I have a feeling that somebody in FIA wants Mercedes to get out of this **** they got themselves into, so he/she/they are trying to redirect the attention towards Ferrari...
IF YOU CAN DREAM IT, YOU CAN DO IT - ENZO FERRARI
\m/HEAVY METAL\m/
All this is a BIG mess, and now they (FIA/Pirelli/Mercedes) want to get out of it clean... But it seams there is no easy/clean way out...
Banned
Section 22.1 of the Sporting Regulations:
"22.1 Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year. The only exception is that each competitor is permitted up to eight promotional events, carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier, to a maximum distance of 100kms per event."
You will note that the regs do not refer to the age of the car being used, only its similarity to the current cars. I suppose one could argue that any car form the 3.0 litre V-8 formula would "conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations." Of course that would be silly, but we're talking FIA, so silly is as silly does.
In any event, Merc were clearly, 100% wrong to do what they did. Questions about Ferrari using a 2 year old car should have been raised at the time.
Full Member
Why wasnt Ferrari asked to come b4 the FIA b4 Merc, since their test took place quite awhile ago?
One has to wonder if they wouldve been asked at all if Merc had not got in trouble. No on seemed to care
b4!!!
Now we have Merc who used a current car, testing 2014 tires. No doubt they have gained invaluable information
to use on their 2014 chassis. Something no other team has at the moment.
Looks like the FIA are simply covering themselves as they really do have to invoke some sort of
penalty on Merc. Clear cut case. I'll wager it will not be points or anything racing, but simply some sort of fine
that will be forgotten about after the next few races. Yet Merc will still have an advantage 2014.
And I may add, didnt Lotus/Reno do one of these not long ago using a 2 year old chassis?
Why didnt the FIA ask them to appear also?
Full Member
i think ferrari really need to put their foot down and show the FIA its place!i think its the ferrari's silence over issues in the last few years which has prevented the FIA from thinking twice before dragging them into this mess.....i maybe wrong...perhaps they might have summoned ferrari to just lay down the details of their test so they show merc why there's has created such a storm.....but my gut feeling is ,it might be a whole big conspiracy to get merc a clean chit!!!now is the time when we need the fire breathing version of LUCA to confront the FIA!
Full Member
What secret test?
In Friday’s Pirelli teleconference Paul Hembery did his best to dismiss suggestions that the Barcelona Mercedes test was a “secret,” notwithstanding the fact that neither the other competitors nor the FIA were informed about it.
The story only emerged after a third party supplier, someone seemingly not bound by the conspiracy of silence woven by Pirelli and Mercedes, mentioned it to the governing body.
Pirelli may blame the media for emphasising it, but the level of secrecy involved is an issue that the FIA will be looking at as it examines the Ferrari and Mercedes tests, and considers whether the contracted tyre company has fulfilled its obligation to maintain sporting equity.
“Some people have described the test as secret,” said Hembery on Friday. “Well, I don’t think we would have won any James Bond prizes, because we booked the circuit in our name, two days after an F1 race.
“We turned up in our trucks, dressed as Pirelli people, with a brightly coloured Mercedes car, at a circuit like Barcelona where when you hear an F1 car fans turn up and take photos. We’d be very bad spies from that point of view.”
So how relaxed was Pirelli about fans “turning up,” either at the Mercedes test, or the Ferrari session that preceded it?
There’s no better man to ask than Pius Gasso, a former racing driver who lives virtually next door to the Barcelona track, and who takes a keen interest in what’s going on.
Apparently nicknamed the ‘all-seeing eye’ by friends on the Spanish motor racing scene, he knows the people who work at the circuit, he knows how to get in – and he knows how to get spy photos that 007 would be proud of.
It was Pius who grabbed a few shots of the Ferrari test, which emerged on the web, but attracted very little comment. Old F1 cars are often in action for filming and so on, and it didn’t seem to be of interest for the simple reason that no-one expected Pirelli to be running full-on F1 tyre tests, ‘secret’ or otherwise.
The Mercedes test was a different story. Despite his best efforts in the end Pius could get only a snatch of audio of an F1 car going round, along with some fuzzy snaps from a hillside some 2kms distance away.
Although he put a picture on Twitter, again there was no red flag, since nobody believed that pukka F1 tyre testing could be going on – with the exception perhaps of Ferrari…
So what was security like at the two sessions?
“At the Ferrari test I could take pictures from the gate on the corner of New Holland [the final corner],” Pius tells me. “But because of the security cameras four security men were quickly sent to me, and they told me it was a private test and I had to leave the area. They told me, ‘Please, Pirelli does not want photos, this is a GP2 test, and the truth is it’s nobody famous.’ I had the picture, so I left!
“At the Mercedes test the door was fully closed at New Holland, covered with a red canvas that made it impossible to see who it was. There were people from ISS, a company dedicated to the monitoring and control of the circuit, who did not let me stay over 10 minutes in the ‘street’ by the gate. I recorded the audio, and decided to climb a mountain to make those pictures.”
Hembery says that his company wants to protect “proprietary information for Pirelli,” even from the attention of teams.
And yet he also says that there was little to be gained from inviting observers from other teams to the Mercedes session – as it did with previous Renault/Lotus testing – because they wouldn’t know what tyres were being used.
In other words Pirelli believes that rival F1 engineers, invited to attend a test and watch from the pitlane, would learn nothing useful about the tyres.
Therefore one wonders quite what anybody standing outside the gate – or sitting in the grandstand – could have learned about Pirelli’s R&D by watching a Mercedes droning round.
So why the excessive security measures? Why stop members of the public from observing from outside the venue, never mind wandering around the spectator areas, enjoying the chance to see the car that was on pole a few days before?
One might conclude that this was little to do with Pirelli protecting its IP – and rather more with not letting the outside world know which car/driver combination was going round, or indeed what was going on in the garage between runs.
Crucially, what invited observers from other teams would be able to do at such a test of course is a) verify that everything was being run to the data protection standards promised with the Lotus testing (see earlier story), and b) confirm that Mercedes was not testing different parts and set-ups, and thus this was a genuine tyre test…
http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/06/02/p...ohnny-english/
Full Member
I suspect that to be the case too.
What is more lacking is the other teams protesting, not raising the point of a legal test against the clearly illegal test.
With all the silence about the real facts and everybody including the media painting the tests as being the same transgression, you know that forever more, if the FIA only act against Merc( and if they even act) would then be clearly favoring Ferrari in the opinion of the mindless and ill informed fans.
And with the standard of the current F1 coverage that would be a lie that they would only be to happy to run with as well. Regardless of the facts.
Banned
Thanks for that link, Dino!! It would seem that Adam Cooper hasn't had the wool pulled over his eyes, eh?What secret test?
Crucially, what invited observers from other teams would be able to do at such a test of course is a) verify that everything was being run to the data protection standards promised with the Lotus testing (see earlier story), and b) confirm that Mercedes was not testing different parts and set-ups, and thus this was a genuine tyre test…
http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/06/02/p...ohnny-english/
Full Member
Summary.
Mercedes Test:
-2013 car.
-Official pilots.
-F1 GP logistics and engineers.
Ferrari Test:
-2011 car.
-Test pilot. (Pedro de la Rosa)
-Logistics and engineers of street cars / GT.
Mercedes breached almost all the requirements required in this type of test.
Full Member
I guess this is where the testing ban stops making sense all together. How can you stop testing? For example if I wanted to learn about exhausts outside the windtunnel, I could get a F1, change the nost substantially, the wheels substantially and forget the rear wing, pound it around the track. Yes its not idea but with the same sidepod, floor, front wing and diffuser, I think the engineers would still learn a lot and people would assume that its not a F1 test.
In any case, I see a penalty coming up for both Ferrari and Mercedes - for Ferrari just to lower the impact on Mercedes. Ferrari may end up with less harsh a penalty though.
Full Member
Wouldn't the nose on the 2011 Ferrari be to high to be deemed legal for Currant or subsequent seasons (2012)
\m/HEAVY METAL\m/
Skeletons has left the closet, and now it is very hard to get them back...
\m/HEAVY METAL\m/
All this about tire test now slowly but surely becomes as cheap soap opera...
Full Member
Exactly what I was thinking. Off-throttle blown diffuser, higher nose, another suspension (which is absolutely crucial). Unless Ferrari brought a B-Spec F150 which is closer to F138 there shouldn't be any problems but taking into account that we didn't send our top engineers this seems extremely unlikely.
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