Red Bull’s traction secret revealed?

[Rob]

But they will still have the torque engine mapping? I am not sure about this fuel in exhaust theory.

Im not sure about the engine maps, i will look into that.

[Hornet]

I think blown diffuser will be physically impossible next year due to the positioning of the exhaust, which is in the middle and far back enough that the edge of the diffuser is besides it (from what I've seen of the drawings). Therefore to utilize the exhaust gas, it would have to move sideways which is impossible (the gas can't flow against the air that's flowing through the car's body.) Right now it works because the gas flows along with the airflow.

They learned from the weakness of the current rules and take the exhaust all the way to a spot that you can no longer reach the side of the diffuser.


Edit: Greig is right, the torque mapping which has nothing to do with blown diffuser, can still be used in theory. What's interesting for me is why only Renault engines are doing it. In theory it sounds simply, but if we're not doing it, then maybe there's something with Renault's engine that allows them to do it while Ferrari engine can't.

In that case, it would depend on the new V6 engine, who's engine can still do that.

[Module]

I love F1 for all the conspiracies...

Here's my try for an explanation without illegality.

We know that Renault engines are allowed to cut to 4 cylinders in slow corners as do Mercedes engines. Engine maps are fixed and have to be linear but obviously they will differ if on 4 or 8 cylinders. And we know that RBR uses coanda to get exaust to the diffuser. And we know that RBR requires counterintuitive drivingstyle to get gases to the diffuser to get more rear downforce.

So essentially when Vettel approaches a corner the engine cuts down to 4 cylinders and a crackling can be heard. On 4 cylinders they have less torq but still a linear map. He points the car early in the corner and accelerates on 4 cylinders so less torq on higher revs resulting in more air blown and no wheelspinn until the car speeds up and all cylinders come to play and there is a new crackling as the 4 other cylinders fire up, probably with some intentional or unintentional missfires.

All theese different parts have been known for ages, explain the sounds and all parts are legal. It is as if everything known is forgotten when Minardi gives a chance for conspiracy. RBR is just for the moment best at exploiting every bit of possible performance and others need to catch up

[Greig]

I think the torque map might be even more important next year to save fuel?

[brembo man]

I think the torque map might be even more important next year to save fuel?

Next years engines are 6 cyl. Mapping an engine down to 3 cyl. seems impossible to do and still be an advantage. How can an engine be balanced out with 3 cyl. firing only?

[Winter]

I love F1 for all the conspiracies...

Here's my try for an explanation without illegality.

We know that Renault engines are allowed to cut to 4 cylinders in slow corners as do Mercedes engines. Engine maps are fixed and have to be linear but obviously they will differ if on 4 or 8 cylinders. And we know that RBR uses coanda to get exaust to the diffuser. And we know that RBR requires counterintuitive drivingstyle to get gases to the diffuser to get more rear downforce.

So essentially when Vettel approaches a corner the engine cuts down to 4 cylinders and a crackling can be heard. On 4 cylinders they have less torq but still a linear map. He points the car early in the corner and accelerates on 4 cylinders so less torq on higher revs resulting in more air blown and no wheelspinn until the car speeds up and all cylinders come to play and there is a new crackling as the 4 other cylinders fire up, probably with some intentional or unintentional missfires.

All theese different parts have been known for ages, explain the sounds and all parts are legal. It is as if everything known is forgotten when Minardi gives a chance for conspiracy. RBR is just for the moment best at exploiting every bit of possible performance and others need to catch up

And if they burn the fuel from those "sleeping" 4 cylinders in the exhaust, there will be even more blowing/downforce.

[Winter]

Next years engines are 6 cyl. Mapping an engine down to 3 cyl. seems impossible to do and still be an advantage. How can an engine be balanced out with 3 cyl. firing only?

Has it be 3, why not 4?

[Silent Bob]

Next years engines are 6 cyl. Mapping an engine down to 3 cyl. seems impossible to do and still be an advantage. How can an engine be balanced out with 3 cyl. firing only?

The cylinders can alternate.. and I doubt they're too worried about vibrations, but I think it wouldn't be as worthwhile because you'd lose too much boost, unless they decide to use some regen electricity to keep the turbos spooled when off throttle.

[brembo man]

Has it be 3, why not 4?

8 cyl. to 4, 6 cyl. to 3, I just thought they would have to be evenly balanced. But alternate, as Bob says is prob. the answer. I just can't see 3 cyl. ever giving enough power.

[DIEK]

They said that the FIA had revised Redbull's car and it was legal, but this isn't true, they have to modify the ECU software to race in Korea.

http://www.xn--sterreich-z7a.at/nach...ttel/117918438

[Alonsomaniac]

They said that the FIA had revised Redbull's car and it was legal, but this isn't true, they have to modify the ECU software to race in Korea.

http://www.xn--sterreich-z7a.at/nach...ttel/117918438

The FIA made them change a LEGAL car?? Hm...

[Module]

They said that the FIA had revised Redbull's car and it was legal, but this isn't true, they have to modify the ECU software to race in Korea.

http://www.xn--sterreich-z7a.at/nach...ttel/117918438

Actually Lauda says that they had to change and test prior to Singapore

ÖSTERREICH: Könnte an den Schummel-Vorwürfen gegen Vettel und Red Bull was dran sein?
Lauda: Nein. allerdings hatte Red Bull vor dem Singapur-GP eine Softwareprüfung. da hat die FIA verlangt, dass sie was ändern müssen. Das haben sie getan, und dann war offenbar alles in Ordnung.

Google translate:

AUSTRIA: Could be something in the cheating allegations against Vettel and Red Bull?
Lauda: no. However, Red Bull had before the Singapore GP software testing. because the FIA has demanded that they need to change something. They have done, and then everything was apparently fine.

Somebody has read that wrong and it is now spreading that they had to change it after and before Korea.

[zoocheatah]

I love F1 for all the conspiracies...

Here's my try for an explanation without illegality.

We know that Renault engines are allowed to cut to 4 cylinders in slow corners as do Mercedes engines. Engine maps are fixed and have to be linear but obviously they will differ if on 4 or 8 cylinders. And we know that RBR uses coanda to get exaust to the diffuser. And we know that RBR requires counterintuitive drivingstyle to get gases to the diffuser to get more rear downforce.

So essentially when Vettel approaches a corner the engine cuts down to 4 cylinders and a crackling can be heard. On 4 cylinders they have less torq but still a linear map. He points the car early in the corner and accelerates on 4 cylinders so less torq on higher revs resulting in more air blown and no wheelspinn until the car speeds up and all cylinders come to play and there is a new crackling as the 4 other cylinders fire up, probably with some intentional or unintentional missfires.

All theese different parts have been known for ages, explain the sounds and all parts are legal. It is as if everything known is forgotten when Minardi gives a chance for conspiracy. RBR is just for the moment best at exploiting every bit of possible performance and others need to catch up

Wouldn't that be using moving parts to gain an aero effect - which is illegal?

[DIEK]

Actually Lauda says that they had to change and test prior to Singapore

ÖSTERREICH: Könnte an den Schummel-Vorwürfen gegen Vettel und Red Bull was dran sein?
Lauda: Nein. allerdings hatte Red Bull vor dem Singapur-GP eine Softwareprüfung. da hat die FIA verlangt, dass sie was ändern müssen. Das haben sie getan, und dann war offenbar alles in Ordnung.

Google translate:

AUSTRIA: Could be something in the cheating allegations against Vettel and Red Bull?
Lauda: no. However, Red Bull had before the Singapore GP software testing. because the FIA has demanded that they need to change something. They have done, and then everything was apparently fine.

Somebody has read that wrong and it is now spreading that they had to change it after and before Korea.

Thanks for the aclaration, mate...

[Rob]

Wouldn't that be using moving parts to gain an aero effect - which is illegal?

Really?

[Rob]

But they will still have the torque engine mapping? I am not sure about this fuel in exhaust theory.

Got bit info on maps next year mate. New engines, all new maps.

[Kiwi Nick]

"...they have to modify the ECU software to race in Korea."

Thank god, I was afraid RBR were going to be fast in Korea...oops!

[Sianellen]

Why is everyone so desperate for Red Bull to be doing something illegal? Every year there are always tons of threads with various rumours from unreliable sources and people shouting about how Red Bull and Vettel must be cheats. The FIA say their car is legal, why can't we just accept that. They built a better car.. again.. It's just the way it is. We have to do a better job or perhaps discuss ways we can maximise what we do have compared to them. It makes us sound incredibly bitter to always be looking for a reason why they must be cheaters instead of focusing on how we can do a better job. Sorry for the rant.

[Sha1]

Why is everyone so desperate for Red Bull to be doing something illegal? Every year there are always tons of threads with various rumours from unreliable sources and people shouting about how Red Bull and Vettel must be cheats. The FIA say their car is legal, why can't we just accept that. They built a better car.. again.. It's just the way it is. We have to do a better job or perhaps discuss ways we can maximise what we do have compared to them. It makes us sound incredibly bitter to always be looking for a reason why they must be cheaters instead of focusing on how we can do a better job. Sorry for the rant.

+1. But it certainly wouldn't be fair if for whatever reason they were allowed to get away with a different 'interpretation' of the rules than the other teams, which certainly seems to be the case, and something that even Pat Fry has alluded to before.

[sagi58]

Why is everyone so desperate for Red Bull to be doing something illegal? Every year there are always tons of threads with various rumours from unreliable sources and people shouting about how Red Bull and Vettel must be cheats. The FIA say their car is legal, why can't we just accept that. They built a better car.. again.. It's just the way it is. We have to do a better job or perhaps discuss ways we can maximise what we do have compared to them. It makes us sound incredibly bitter to always be looking for a reason why they must be cheaters instead of focusing on how we can do a better job. Sorry for the rant.

Completely agree with EVERYTHING you've pointed out!!
Just wanted to add it sounds like a case of "sour grapes"
that we don't seem able to keep up!!
Here's hoping next year the shoe is on the other foot!!

[FrankAlfa]

OR Maybe it is a case of ACtUAL CHEATING year after year that is being permitted by the FIA!

[mirafiori]

OR Maybe it is a case of ACtUAL CHEATING year after year that is being permitted by the FIA!

Me and you FrankAlfa speak the same language.

[Greig]

OR Maybe it is a case of ACtUAL CHEATING year after year that is being permitted by the FIA!

Yeah they are cheating, maybe that makes you feel better about them beating us or something. You can't accept Red Bull have done a better job than us (as Alonso, Stefano etc admit) so just brand them cheats, it's pretty embarrassing really now. Ferrari cheated with MS too, it's all fake and the only people who win are cheats and pay the FIA and Bernie, away and lie down.

[Suzie]

If you truly believe they are cheating and getting away with it, why bother watching?

[FrankAlfa]

@ Greig,

Just Cool it! Enough with your Direct Dialog toward Me! We do not agree on the matter so lets just agree to disagree!

I am tired of YOU bashing Ferrari and how they are no good! All I keep hearing from you is Red Bull are the BEST and THEY are doing Everything By the Book and there is No Way Red Bull can possibly be doing anything illegal! You have defended Red Bull like only a Red Bull FAN does! Enough is Enough! You also refuse to acknowledge the Clear Breaking of the Rules and No Penalties being handed out the Red Bull Team over the past few years that have directly influenced the Constructor's and Driver's Championships! Then we have this years most recently Tires Testing Ban Scandal in which the Mercedes team recieved little or no penalty! If you don't like the Ferrari Team and you LOVE the RED BULL TEAM that much, then join them?

[FrankAlfa]

People want to talk about what happened years ago which are NOT Relevant today or the last 4 years! The facts are the facts that Red Bull has been permitted to get away with cheating with no penalties! Why some people claim to be a Ferrari Fan when all they are saying is how great the Red Bull Team is and how poor the Ferrari Team is! I call that Bashing! And yes, there is real proof of the FIA "Allowed" Cheating by Red Bull for the past few years that they have NEVER been Penalized for!

[Sianellen]

@ Greig,

Just Cool it! Enough with your Direct Dialog toward Me! We do not agree on the matter so lets just agree to disagree!

I am tired of YOU bashing Ferrari and how they are no good! All I keep hearing from you is Red Bull are the BEST and THEY are doing Everything By the Book and there is No Way Red Bull can possibly be doing anything illegal! You have defended Red Bull like only a Red Bull FAN does! Enough is Enough! You also refuse to acknowledge the Clear Breaking of the Rules and No Penalties being handed out the Red Bull Team over the past few years that have directly influenced the Constructor's and Driver's Championships! Then we have this years most recently Tires Testing Ban Scandal in which the Mercedes team recieved little or no penalty! If you don't like the Ferrari Team and you LOVE the RED BULL TEAM that much, then join them?

Are you for real? A fan can acknowledge the weaknesses as well as the strengths. It doesn't make them not a fan. Just because we don't feel the need to throw accusations about other teams right , left and centre does not mean that we don't support Ferrari. You are deluded if you think that Greig supports Red Bull just because he accepts that Ferrari are not always gods on earth and actually has respect for opponents as well as the team he supports. They did better than us and have been for 4 years, get over it. You sound like a sore loser.

[FrankAlfa]

I see many people wish to be "Blind" to what has occurred in Formula One over the past 4 years regarding the Governing Body of Formula One. That is fine. I have no point to prove to these people. I will Continue to post my opinion and do my best to respect others.

[Rob]

@ Greig,

Just Cool it! Enough with your Direct Dialog toward Me! We do not agree on the matter so lets just agree to disagree!

I am tired of YOU bashing Ferrari and how they are no good! All I keep hearing from you is Red Bull are the BEST and THEY are doing Everything By the Book and there is No Way Red Bull can possibly be doing anything illegal! You have defended Red Bull like only a Red Bull FAN does! Enough is Enough! You also refuse to acknowledge the Clear Breaking of the Rules and No Penalties being handed out the Red Bull Team over the past few years that have directly influenced the Constructor's and Driver's Championships! Then we have this years most recently Tires Testing Ban Scandal in which the Mercedes team recieved little or no penalty! If you don't like the Ferrari Team and you LOVE the RED BULL TEAM that much, then join them?

I have posted below reply in FIA thread aswell...

As much as i would love them to be kicked out from cheating, they will not. Past 4 years they have passed all loads tests, scrutineering. We had flexi wings, illegal, but we passed the load tests. If RBR were running T/C it would of been found out. All ECUs checked, all data checked. Look what happened the other year at Hockenhiem, they got found out. A map was reducing torque to much.

It is not bashing the team, last thing i and many other would do. But, we must take our hats off to them for doing better job, developing and designing CFD alot better than all of us. We have witnessed a team at their peak. As we were 1999-2004. We know how hard it is to stay at this level, thats why now, im saying well done to them. And up to us, next year to step up and make the performance gains with the new rules they have done with these rules.

End of day, whats happening is happening, and this sort of team dominance doesnt come along that often, it hurts, alot but what can we do? Call them cheats, boo them, for what? FIA isnt going to suddenly strip them of all WDC WCCs just because we, Mclaren and rest of F1 world/fans are calling for it. They have out done us all.

[Sha1]

If you truly believe they are cheating and getting away with it, why bother watching?

I for one have stopped watching and I openly stated this as well. I still fully support the team though.

I think it's one thing to openly spend loads of money to obtain success, and another to break a gentleman's agreement and spend close to unlimited amounts behind every other team's back. Ferrari were getting a lot of flack for some of the tactics used in the early 2000's, so I see no problem with giving it to Red Bull for doing the same, if not much worse.