Red Bull’s traction secret revealed?

[mirafiori]

You are missing the point, I am the first person to congratulate Red Bull no problem, no I do not want Ferrari to win by having favours, my problem is with Bernie, Charlie, Hembery, these guys need to be removed, they have to much influence. Again I go back to Mercedes cheating tyre test, sanctioned by Charlie, and Hembery happy for Pirelli to supply Mercedes on that test, fully aware Mercedes using a 2013 car, which was illegal. So I repeat no problem with the teams, I have Massive problem with these cheating influential people, and it does not matter what you say, my position will not change, but you seem to be very happy with Bernie and Charlie and I respect that.

[Mike996]

RBR being ahead or Ferrari being behind may just be a matter of perspective on the same thing. But it is becoming more and more obvious that Ferrari are falling behind and not RBR cheating. We fool ourselves if we believe that RBR are still our rivals. We have to watch our back. More and more teams close the gap that we had over them at the start of the season or are even passing us by. Fighting against a Sauber, a team that has serious financial problems? Come on.
That's what worries me. It is not surprising that we don't see any improvements from Ferrari for the FER138 since they have switched their efforts almost entirely to the car of 2014, but shouldn't all the other teams have done that as well? Are they still working on their 2013 car at full pace, or why do other teams keep improving, relative to Ferrari? Or do we have an underlying issue at Ferrari such as lack of motivation, and not just the wind tunnel issue?

[Stormsearcher]

Maybe am just reading into things.. but did anyone else notice that the moment vettel lost the KERS during quali, he was losing the rear of the car when accelerating out of turns? So he was accelerating much sooner than others are, but only this time, whatever they have done with the KERS unit was not helping him and he was losing time.

Maybe there is some truth to the rumours of a type of traction control connected to the RBR KERS unit (god alone knows how though).

[Mike996]

Maybe am just reading into things.. but did anyone else notice that the moment vettel lost the KERS during quali, he was losing the rear of the car when accelerating out of turns? So he was accelerating much sooner than others are, but only this time, whatever they have done with the KERS unit was not helping him and he was losing time.

Maybe there is some truth to the rumours of a type of traction control connected to the RBR KERS unit (god alone knows how though).

Well, he knew that he didn't have KERS, meaning a loss of around 0,4s per lap, so he had to push the car to the limit even more. I wouldn't read too much into that. Maybe he was just trying to get on pole by all means, or at least get into the first row.

[Stormsearcher]

Well, he knew that he didn't have KERS, meaning a loss of around 0,4s per lap, so he had to push the car to the limit even more. I wouldn't read too much into that. Maybe he was just trying to get on pole by all means, or at least get into the first row.

hmmm.. fair point.

[Dino]

Ormai è chiaro a tutti: la Red Bull utilizza un controllo di trazione regolare

11/26/2013 01:46:00 PM Cristiano Sponton

E’ finito il mondiale 2013 dominato dalla Red Bull RB9 che si è aggiudicata il Mondiale Piloti e quello Costruttori. Il numero di Autosprint in edicola quest’oggi riporta che il segreto di questo dominio, soprattutto nell seconda metà della stagione, è dovuto al sistema di controllo della trazione che è stato introdotto sulla vettura a partire dal Gp di Singapore.

Allora Giancarlo Minardi non era pazzo quando diceva che il rumore della Red Bull faceva capire che stessero usando un sistema di controllo della trazione. Tutti noi abbiamo cercato di scoprire il vero segreto di questa Red Bull: aerodinamica, sistema sospensivo interconnesso, ecc.

Poi finisce il mondiale e viene spiegato che il dominio è dovuto ad un sistema di controllo di trazione perfettamente legale. La FIA era a conoscenza di questa cosa ma non è intervenuta in quanto il sistema non violava il regolamento tecnico. Anche la Ferrari è a conoscenza dell’uso di questo sistema ma purtroppo non ha ancora capito come funziona e come abbiano potuto realizzarlo.

Autosprint, con un articolo firmato Alberto Antonini, riporta che le tracce di questo sistema di Traction Control si vede chiaramente analizzando la telemetria: nelle accelerazioni in uscita dalle curve medio-lente, la potenza e la coppia del motore subiscono un vero e proprio taglio per impedire il pattinamento delle gomme posteriori.

La Red Bull aveva iniziato a lavorare a questo sistema nel periodo di Giugno ma è stato introdotto in vettura soltanto a settembre. Il sistema essendo legale non è completamente automatizzato ma deve essere “attivato” da pilota. Il sistema sfrutta sia il ritardo di accensione sia certe funzioni della cambiata. E’ probabile che l’uso dell’acceleratore “inganni” l’elettronica del motore, che reagisce tagliando la potenza a quella che avverte come una differenza eccessiva fra l’apertura della farfalla e la coppia erogata in quel momento. Probabilmente in questo sistema entra in funzione anche la frizione ma sempre rimanendo nella legalità.


Questo sistema sarà fondamentale nella prossima stagione per controllare l’eccessiva coppia dei motori turbo. Se gli altri team non riusciranno a capire il funzionamento di questo sistema in modo da cercare di replicarlo, la Red Bull partirà con un grandissimo vantaggio anche nel 2014.


It is now clear to all: the Red Bull uses a traction control system to adjust

And 'The World in 2013 dominated by Red Bull RB9 that won the World Drivers ' and Constructors . The number of Autosprint on newsstands today reports that the secret of this domain , especially in the second half of the season, is due to the traction control system that was introduced on the car from the Singapore Grand Prix .

Then Giancarlo Minardi was not mad when he said that the noise of the Red Bull made ​​it clear that they were using a system of traction control . All of us have tried to discover the true secret of Red Bull : aerodynamics , suspension system interconnected , and so on.

Then ends the world and explains that the domain is due to a traction control system perfectly legal. The FIA ​​was aware of this thing but did not intervene because the system did not violate the technical regulations. Even Ferrari is aware of the use of this system but unfortunately has not yet figured out how it works and how they could make it happen.

Autosprint , with a signed article Alberto Antonini , reports that the traces of this system Traction Control is clearly seen by analyzing the telemetry : accelerating out of bends medium - lens , the power and torque of the engine subjected to a real cutting prevent the wheels of the rear tires .

Red Bull had started to work on this system in the period of June but was introduced only in the car in September. The legal system is not being fully automated but must be " activated" by the pilot. The system uses both the ignition delay is certain functions of shifting. E ' likely that the use of the accelerator "tricks " the engine electronics , which reacts by cutting off the power to that which warns as an excessive difference between the throttle opening and the torque delivered at that moment . Probably in this system starts working the clutch but always remaining within the law.

This system will be crucial in the coming season to control the excessive torque of the turbo . If the other team will not be able to understand the workings of this system in order to try to replicate it , Red Bull will start with a huge advantage even in 2014


http://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2013...l.html?refresh

[DIEK]

It was clear...when you reads the pronoucements of Bernie, he is a fan of Vettel and says "Is the best pilot, the Muhammad Ali, the Tiger Woods of F1"...but we all know that Bernie was and is a cheater.

[Hermann]

It was clear...when you reads the pronoucements of Bernie, he is a fan of Vettel and says "Is the best pilot, the Muhammad Ali, the Tiger Woods of F1"...but we all know that Bernie was and is a cheater.

You can fool a lot of people for a long time, but you can't fool everyone forever.

[FrankAlfa]

The statements above are Vindication of Me voicing my opinion till I am blue in the face to convince our host that Red Bull WAS using "Traction Control" this past season. I am a respected Engineering Person of many years of experience and I take great exception to that person to that Deleted my Thread and Changes my post and to add the word "Paronoia" to my posts! I expect an apology from our Host for Insulting me as he has!

There is the "Written" Rules and then there is the "Intent" of the Rules. The FIA knowing, allowing and condoning the Red Bull racing tean to be permitted to be allowed to have the means and methods to have an Active "Traction Control" System on their race cars and to have it further activated by the driver is a purely illegal, underhanded, corruption activity. Permitting Red Bull to be allowed tro CHEAT is clearly AGAINST the Written Rules and the INTENT of the Rules! This is the Corruption in the Sport of Fomula One that I have been so passionate about and yet I have been GROSSLY ridiculed by the Host of this site who has gone so far to have had my Threads and Posts Removed because he is unable to believe in the truth!

The Truth Alway will emerge! Long Live the TRUTH!

Ciao. Forza Ferrari!!!

[Umbria]

Now that finger boy has equaled the record of the great Alberto Ascari with 9 straight victories, it makes me laugh to think that the little clown,"Vettel" will be mentioned in the same sentence as Ascari! Think about how difficult it was to drive a F1 car in the early 1950's and he does it with the huge advantage of having traction control! what a joke F1 has become!

[Nero Horse]

It is now clear to all: the Red Bull uses a traction control system to adjust

And 'The World in 2013 dominated by Red Bull RB9 that won the World Drivers ' and Constructors . The number of Autosprint on newsstands today reports that the secret of this domain , especially in the second half of the season, is due to the traction control system that was introduced on the car from the Singapore Grand Prix .

Then Giancarlo Minardi was not mad when he said that the noise of the Red Bull made ​​it clear that they were using a system of traction control . All of us have tried to discover the true secret of Red Bull : aerodynamics , suspension system interconnected , and so on.

Then ends the world and explains that the domain is due to a traction control system perfectly legal. The FIA ​​was aware of this thing but did not intervene because the system did not violate the technical regulations. Even Ferrari is aware of the use of this system but unfortunately has not yet figured out how it works and how they could make it happen.

Autosprint , with a signed article Alberto Antonini , reports that the traces of this system Traction Control is clearly seen by analyzing the telemetry : accelerating out of bends medium - lens , the power and torque of the engine subjected to a real cutting prevent the wheels of the rear tires .

Red Bull had started to work on this system in the period of June but was introduced only in the car in September. The legal system is not being fully automated but must be " activated" by the pilot. The system uses both the ignition delay is certain functions of shifting. E ' likely that the use of the accelerator "tricks " the engine electronics , which reacts by cutting off the power to that which warns as an excessive difference between the throttle opening and the torque delivered at that moment . Probably in this system starts working the clutch but always remaining within the law.

This system will be crucial in the coming season to control the excessive torque of the turbo . If the other team will not be able to understand the workings of this system in order to try to replicate it , Red Bull will start with a huge advantage even in 2014


http://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2013...l.html?refresh

Yea so what else is new lol?! But unfortunately this is pretty much just another irrelevant story, because nobody is going to do anything about it anyway.

[FerrariF60]

Yea so what else is new lol?! But unfortunately this is pretty much just another irrelevant story, because nobody is going to do anything about it anyway.

hopefully Ferrari will PUSH the envelope beyond it's limits next season (just like the good old days 2000-2004 seasons) now that we have James Allison on board with us...and we'll see what the FIA will have to say about it...it's about time Ferrari does the same thing and REALLY look for loop holes and push, push, push...sky's the limit

[Hornet]

Not sure if anything was lost in the translation, but sounds to me like the torque mapping that was explained by Ted on SkyF1 and yes it is perfectly legal. What it does is that it cuts the cylinder at certain throttle position. It is not a close-loop control system where it takes feedback from the wheel and cut the cylinder as required.

It's a system where it simply cut the cylinder all the time when the throttle is at a certain position. This is perfectly legal and all teams do it to a certain extend. Red Bull simply do a better job at it which allows them to take advantage of it to improve the car's traction.

Even the translated article there said "always remaining within the law" which I assume it means the system is legal. I don't see where's the illegal part.

[Senna4Ever]

I'm so glad that "We" have all in house (engine, chassis .... )

Uniform electronics, engine supplier French ... and still RB managed to develop this ...

Its all about imagine ... Lennon was right ...

[mirafiori]

The statements above are Vindication of Me voicing my opinion till I am blue in the face to convince our host that Red Bull WAS using "Traction Control" this past season. I am a respected Engineering Person of many years of experience and I take great exception to that person to that Deleted my Thread and Changes my post and to add the word "Paronoia" to my posts! I expect an apology from our Host for Insulting me as he has!

There is the "Written" Rules and then there is the "Intent" of the Rules. The FIA knowing, allowing and condoning the Red Bull racing tean to be permitted to be allowed to have the means and methods to have an Active "Traction Control" System on their race cars and to have it further activated by the driver is a purely illegal, underhanded, corruption activity. Permitting Red Bull to be allowed tro CHEAT is clearly AGAINST the Written Rules and the INTENT of the Rules! This is the Corruption in the Sport of Fomula One that I have been so passionate about and yet I have been GROSSLY ridiculed by the Host of this site who has gone so far to have had my Threads and Posts Removed because he is unable to believe in the truth!

The Truth Alway will emerge! Long Live the TRUTH!

Ciao. Forza Ferrari!!!

The rules state no Traction control so Red Bull have found a loophole to get round the ruling, Red Bull then develop a system which the FIA say is legal. Now for members who say Red Bull are clever, geniuses, Newey is some messiah etc, this is only been possible due to the FIA allowing this to happen, surly before Red Bull developed this system they would of approached the scrutineers, FIA, and were told yes carry on, but if traction control is banned how is this allowed. For example refuelling is banned as is Traction control, so if Ferrari were to run with less fuel from the beginning of the race which would be a massive advantage, then when we pit for fresh tyres, we some how can add more fuel, maybe when we jack up the car it has a fuel hose attached to pump in the required fuel but this obviously could not happen as refuelling is banned but so is traction control. Maybe I have given a poor example but you surly understand where I am coming from?

[BigGar32]

Now that finger boy has equaled the record of the great Alberto Ascari with 9 straight victories, it makes me laugh to think that the little clown,"Vettel" will be mentioned in the same sentence as Ascari! Think about how difficult it was to drive a F1 car in the early 1950's and he does it with the huge advantage of having traction control! what a joke F1 has become!

So Vettel shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Ascari?!?!? And why not? Ascari was a fantastic driver and F1 legend but was he a league ahead of Vettel then?

[FrankAlfa]

When you win the Driver's Title with a race car that is Cheating the Rules, your wins are a fraud! Both the Letter of the Law (Rules) and the intent of the Rules must be upheld!

Has Society gotten the definition of "Right" and "Wrong" so mixed up now that it so blurred and unclear that no one knows the difference between the two???

You have a set of rules for everyone but you allow one team to have the right to break those rules and for what reason must be asked???

"Traction Control", in any form. has been banned yet Red Bull is permitted to use it and the 2012 spec tires to win BOTH tittles in 2013' because of it?

What's that they say about the "Fish in Denmark"??? No "Paranoid" opinion here! Just Facts.

[F2002]

Not sure if anything was lost in the translation, but sounds to me like the torque mapping that was explained by Ted on SkyF1 and yes it is perfectly legal. What it does is that it cuts the cylinder at certain throttle position. It is not a close-loop control system where it takes feedback from the wheel and cut the cylinder as required.

It's a system where it simply cut the cylinder all the time when the throttle is at a certain position. This is perfectly legal and all teams do it to a certain extend. Red Bull simply do a better job at it which allows them to take advantage of it to improve the car's traction.

Even the translated article there said "always remaining within the law" which I assume it means the system is legal. I don't see where's the illegal part.

+1

The most relevant part of the article is, sadly, where it says that "Anche la Ferrari è a conoscenza dell’uso di questo sistema ma purtroppo non ha ancora capito come funziona...."

[Dino]

+1

The most relevant part of the article is, sadly, where it says that "Anche la Ferrari è a conoscenza dell’uso di questo sistema ma purtroppo non ha ancora capito come funziona...."

If this is going to be allowed for 2014 it will be a disaster !!
With the Torque the Turbo engines will produce the difference in traction out of slow corners will multiply.
The Teams that best perfect this solution will make the rest look like F3 cars.

[FrankAlfa]

Go back two years when Red Bull was using Engine Mapping Traction Control! They were "Asked" to remove it. The Rules were then changed, Mid-Season, to BAN such Engine Mapping. Everyone is losing the point of why the Rules ban it! The intent was to BAN the use of ANY Traction Control. Whether it be Electronic or Mechanical, PERIOD! Red Bull was PERMITTED to use Traction Control which was clearly an electronic and/or a mechanical device which directly gave Red Bull Racing an Unfair advantage! This is NOT about the other teams doing a better job and cheating as well as Red Bull have! It is about adhering to the Rules and Not Cheating at all! End of Story!

[FrankAlfa]

Are people so "Perverse" in their thinking that "Anything Goes" as long as you can get away with it??? Don't Rules mean anything anymore?

[F2002]

Go back two years when Red Bull was using Engine Mapping Traction Control! They were "Asked" to remove it. The Rules were then changed, Mid-Season, to BAN such Engine Mapping. Everyone is losing the point of why the Rules ban it! The intent was to BAN the use of ANY Traction Control. Whether it be Electronic or Mechanical, PERIOD! Red Bull was PERMITTED to use Traction Control which was clearly an electronic and/or a mechanical device which directly gave Red Bull Racing an Unfair advantage! This is NOT about the other teams doing a better job and cheating as well as Red Bull have! It is about adhering to the Rules and Not Cheating at all! End of Story!

Not disputing your assertions in any way of course, just a question though: why wouldn't Ferrari (or any other team) put pressure on the FIA to really investigate and possibly ban the system if it truly is illegal? The article says that Ferrari knows about it and is trying to copy it, that's not what you'd expect from someone who is absolutely sure that a system is illegal.

[FrankAlfa]

It is the "Twisted" logic of the way Formula One works! They (FIA) write rules to set the standard and then carefully, at their own discretion, break them and allow what we have seen with Red Bull take place. This is a "Sport" build on "contradiction" and fickle favoritisim! Ethics and Morals are just thrown out the window in this Sport and those who run it. I guess it is in if you are willing to play the game with the always slanted and skewed in a direction oppisite to the Rules. If this behavior is the norm, then why have rules at all?

[mirafiori]

Not disputing your assertions in any way of course, just a question though: why wouldn't Ferrari (or any other team) put pressure on the FIA to really investigate and possibly ban the system if it truly is illegal? The article says that Ferrari knows about it and is trying to copy it, that's not what you'd expect from someone who is absolutely sure that a system is illegal.

The fact Red Bull has been allowed to use this system by the FIA, there is no way they would want to ban them now, it would make the whole organisation (FIA) LOOK INCOMPETENT. You can bet all teams complained but maybe after a few races, lets be honest it would take all teams a few races to pass by before they realized they were being shafted. could you imagine the implications of taking points off Red Bull and the embarrassment it would cause to the idiotic rule makers. The rules state NO TRACTION CONTROL, yet Red Bull have been allowed by the FIA this system on there car. The rules also state no inseason testing unless agreed by other teams, not allowed to test current car, so 2011 would be OK, The FIA Charlie Whiting allowed Mercedes and Pirelli to back stab all the other teams in the secretive cheating test using the 2013 car. Some of you need to wake up and see we are being mugged off.

[FrankAlfa]

+++1 110% Correct!

[F2002]

Some of you need to wake up and see we are being mugged off.

And do what, stop watching Formula One you mean?

[wisepie]

The FIA and other teams were obviously aware of this 'traction control' issue and chose not to raise a stink about it. The public have a right to know the real reason for Red Bull's dominance and I don't believe that no other team had the means and technical knowledge to follow suit. Maybe they were waiting for RB to be brought to account and banned, but instead the FIA say it was legal. How can any form of traction control be legal when it's banned, and will it legal in 2014? FrankAlfa, you have your most lucid moments when you're wound up and I'm with you on this one!

[mirafiori]

And do what, stop watching Formula One you mean?

No you don't stop watching, in fact you should do what I do and watch more. As fans of formula one we have to voice our opinions and if you believe something is wrong you should say so.

[FrankAlfa]

Thank you for the support.

I think that in any "Sport" the rules of that sport should be Enforced without Exception!

We the Fans can only watch and hope this "Sport" has the kind of Fairness and Ethics we Expect from a sport of this caliber.

What the FIA are doing is like giving one specific Soccer / Football team free points at every game, year after year.

[F2002]

Thank you for the support.

I think that in any "Sport" the rules of that sport should be Enforced without Exception!

We the Fans can only watch and hope this "Sport" has the kind of Fairness and Ethics we Expect from a sport of this caliber.

What the FIA are doing is like giving one specific Soccer / Football team free points at every game, year after year.

I believe you said that you are an Engineer, so here's a question for you (and this is not sarcastic):

Assuming all cars adhered 100% to the regulations as written, should we expect there to be no single team which a huge advantage over the others?

Because if so, then the Federation should investigate teams by default, as soon as somebody has more than an acceptable advantage over the rest of the field.

Either way, if these rules have been designed to try to level the field as much as possible, they have failed miserably.