Truth be known, think its both.Originally Posted by Aberracus
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Truth be known, think its both.
CAVALLINO RAMPANTE PER SEMPRE
Full Member
I cant blame Stephano for tire change.
I can blame him for Not making a good car on 2012 Pirellis and then Not making upgrades work every weekend for 5 years and then FAILING to stay ahead of Lotus Sauber Mercedes AMG Redbull Racing etc?
Stwphano has failed. And there are more chances of him failing. No matter who you get on board.
4 down, 3 to go! Forza Sebastian!
Full Member
Even if we improve the tools both hardware and software wise, it will take some time to master how best to use it. There is what you call a learning curve associated with these things. And they always have some sort of deficiency in one aspect or another and it isn't quite clear how until you start using them. Ferrari will soon bring a new windtunnel that will go live. We haven't used it yet because it is obviously not ready but we cannot say with 100% confidence that we know how to use it until we actually start using it. Same goes for the car simulator. We have updated that I believe but De La Rosa probably took some time to get to grips with it unless it was identical in everyway to a simulator that he previously used. There's bound to be some differences at least. Ideally, we should have been identifying the problems long before and actually been doing something about it. But what is alarming is year after year we still seem to have major problems despite working hard to fix the problem areas. It's not like we don't work hard. This suggests that there is a very deep problem at Ferrari and perhaps the only way to see significant progress is to have large changes at the top. Surely, Stefano's position is untenable if this keeps going on like this year after year. He's a very nice guy but just comes across as lacking the 'killer instinct' that some team principals have. I'm not actually pointing the blame on him because people in the team need to realise before himself if he isn't doing a good enough job or not. Maybe there is too much politics that go on where everyone is trying to protect each other at Ferrari?
Full Member
Both names, Ferrari and Microsoft used to mean something... They were companies with great ideas and success. Then, after some changes at the top, they both became complacent and fell asleep at the wheel which allowed other companies (Apple, Samsung, Google/Red Bull, Lotus, Mercedes) to leapfrog them with innovative ideas and out of the box thinking...
Microsoft has started to make changes at the top (Ballmer) in order to bring fresh blood, energy and new ideas to get them back to the top. When is Ferrari going to do the same? (SD?)...
Thank you Xubuntu
Of course won WDC in hungary ... don't know what you want to say or show or bring up ...
Last comment on this:
the more I think about the issue about faulty wind tunnel the more it sounds like fairy tale to me.
Why?
Last year we got told: faulty wind tunnel -> bad results -> rebuild own one and use Toyota wind tunnel instead for 2013 ....
Now once again issues with wind tunnel ...
I know that it is a fact that in Schumacher days we had more possibilities to test on track in Fiorano ... but we used the same old faulty wind tunnel in the glory days to prepare the parts. But somehow it worked there otherwise we wouldn't had such a success and such a superior car.
So someone must have been able to work with this faulty wind tunnel anyway ... I can't imagine that they brought new parts from windtunnel to Fiorano ... Schumacher tested ... parts not worked and someone turned them into right parts by magic ...
So there must have been a massive discrepancy between expectations from wind tunnel and the parts Schumacher tested then in Fiorano also in the old days. And if not ... what changed then the results in wind tunnel since 2006 or 2008 ... ???
So more and more I only believe it is half of the truth ...
And when Greig refers to our lack in CFD and simulations skills beside real life test track: at least one person of our actual management was sitting on the table where the regulations had been made against our working behaviour. So this person should have been in the responsibility to provide the basis for structural changes needed to comply to the changed test environment. And it seems this person failed ...
And this is not bashing on the team - this is just a fair view on actual situation ... And I think it isn't very far from reality ...
Cheers ...
Last edited by Senna4Ever; 15th October 2013 at 06:05.
"If I was driving for Red Bull [from 2008] probably I would have more championships, but because they were dominating between 2010 and 2014 probably I would never have driven for Ferrari. I am very happy and very proud to drive for Ferrari, all my time there.
Salut Gilles
I am sure you could run 100% scale in the wind tunnel back in the MS days, don't think you can now which is our problem with it (IIRC) I think when we built our tunnel no other team had one that could run 100% scale either. I am sure it's 60% scale now and you can't run it full speed or something.
Forza Ferrari
Full Member
Interesting. Now I have been hearing the wind tunnel excuse since 2011. Its 2013's car that we designed in Toyota's wind Tunnel.
What went wrong? And why did we design 2011 and 2012 cars in an out dated wind tunnel. Not to forget 2009 and 2010 cars too.
Again 2009 2010 2011 2012.. 4 seasons designed in a faulty out dated wibd tunnel.
Questions arise-
1- Why 4 years wasted on out dated wind tunnel designing.
2- Why is the 2013 car which is designed in Toyota's wind tunnel BAD
Full Member
You can do limited running in a full scale wind tunnel, but only for a certain amount of time. Most teams do straight line tests instead since it costs less
AFAIK we didn't use a 100% scale model in the MS days, because it is way too expensive to run. I believe Sauber are the only team that have a 100% scale model wind tunnel. Back in the MS days we used a 50% model.
Full Member
During the 2010 season, we upgraded the wind tunnel from 50% to 60%. I believe this is when the calibration really started to become on issue (though obviously it does not help that the wind tunnel is built on a slope).
I can't answer your 2nd question. It is a mystery to me.
The best upgrades we brought in recent years (that is Valencia 2010, and Barcelona 2012) were all tested on track, before we brought them to a race.
Full Member
What I've heard is that the Toyota windtunnel that we've been using for this year's car is compatible with a 60% scale model but the data collection instruments that we've been using to collect that data from that model are for 50% scale models. So our data collection instruments are outdated. Doesn't that sound like another excuse? It does to me as they must have known that before starting their work on the Toyota windtunnel. People are just trying to cover their backs.
Full Member
Is not only fault aero parts coming from the wind tunnel is lack of ideas coming out of Manarello.
Go Ferrari, beat them all!
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The F138 actually worked good from the start of 2013 (all those podiums + wins in China and Spain) up till about June, which means the Maranello bunch actually succeeded using the Toyota wind tunnel they had on hand to make the car fast. Something must've went wrong within the management midway through the season, I don't think we can put the blame entirely on the wind tunnel.
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the tires didn't let our rival (RedBull)unleash all their potential, really our car was nothing special, just didn't kill the tires, it was the same almost good almost average car we still have.
Go Ferrari, beat them all!
Full Member
Basically. 2012 was just as bad as 2011 or 2013 is. The only difference was we were 2.5 seconds off pace at the start and we covered 2 seconds to remain 0.5 seconds off it.
It was a good couple of wet qualifyings and races that lead to us gaining so much ground ala Fernando
Full Member
I enjoyed reading some of the comments.
Respectfully though, it looks like a bad deja vu to me. 2011,2012 repeating themselves over and over again - wind tunnel after wind tunnel, and then tires, CFD, etc.
One of the fellow posters at the begging even tries to imply that somehow it might be no others but FA's fault because allegedly he consistently sought to be some type of a "shadow team manager" since the glory days of Renault back in 2005 and 2006...Interesting thinking for the driver due to whose performance only, Ferrari has saved some face in 2011-13.
As for the excuses that we are so behind because everybody else have grabbed all the good quality aero software personnel and that this somehow "unfair" action has damaged the "poor" Ferrari and their "innocent" team boss, I don't think that they are even worth a serious comment.
Just looking for excuses where they simply can't be found is not going to make the team perform any better. Which means that it's not going to make us fans feel any better as well.. In fact, it's only bound to prolong our misery. And because of that it's difficult for me to understand why, excuse after excuse, some people keep justifying the bad performance and amnestying top management. If this is to show support for the team, then I honestly think it is a very very wrong approach...
Salut Gilles
Alonso thinks that Ferrari's fate was sealed around the time of the British Grand Prix when a package of improvements did not deliver the expected step forward on track.
That put Ferrari on the back foot, and matters were then further complicated when Pirelli was forced to revert to the 2012 tyre construction because of the British Grand Prix blow outs.
"I think the problem was our development," said Alonso. "We didn't adapt to the tyre, or didn't have the steps that we planned.
"We arrived especially in July to the races with some good updates on paper, but not so much on the track.
"I think that slowed down the performance improvements that we should have had.
"The Pirelli [change] is an extra. It is clear that there are some teams that lost a little bit of performance, and some teams that win a little bit of performance like Sauber.
"But they [Pirelli] had to make the changes because the tyres explode.
"So it was not a decision to make better one team or another team.
"It was a change to continue racing in the championship. So there was nothing we can do."
Forza Ferrari
Full Member
Would anyone be surprised if Fernando left Ferrari next season?
Year 2000: R.I.P Formula 1
loves Sweden
Absolutely.
Salut Gilles
2014 he will be at Ferrari I am pretty sure, and if we are not competitive for the title then I think he will go elsewhere for 2015.
Forza Ferrari
Full Member
Agreed. The only reason we were challenging for the title in 2012 is because the grid was quite mixed up (at least in the first half of the season) and there was no one team dominating (as was the case in 2011). Our main rivals also made quite a few mistakes. In terms of pace of the car, it was a podium car in the hands of Alonso, and a points scoring car in the hands of Massa. Not much different from 2011.
Salut Gilles
I think we have been unfortunate to not win a title with Alonso, but on the other hand also fortunate to have had a chance to win one mainly down to Red Bull having problems rather than us being super good. I think these close times 2010 and 2012 do tend to paper over the cracks a little.
Forza Ferrari
Thank you Xubuntu
why should we be surprised?
I would be if he would leave ...
"If I was driving for Red Bull [from 2008] probably I would have more championships, but because they were dominating between 2010 and 2014 probably I would never have driven for Ferrari. I am very happy and very proud to drive for Ferrari, all my time there.
Thank you Xubuntu
"If I was driving for Red Bull [from 2008] probably I would have more championships, but because they were dominating between 2010 and 2014 probably I would never have driven for Ferrari. I am very happy and very proud to drive for Ferrari, all my time there.
Full Member
I concur. Pretty strange things will have to happen if he doesn't drive for us next year but if we are yet again behind in terms of car performance, I really see him leaving for 2015.
Full Member
There will be no absolute prediction for the next year. Alo- is not stupid to move even if Ferrari is not giving him a good car no other teem accept him better and respect him more. They will shine very fast. About Stef- you need to k ow that he has been the one to challenge the rainbow team.
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If we have a dog of a car, and maybe McLaren has a good car but not great maybe they can hire him back for 2015 with Honda and Pomodrou coming back too.
If he goes we are the losers.
And will be SD and management fault.
Stefano's CV is only "good" because Alonso.
Go Ferrari, beat them all!
Full Member
So stefano is feeling the pressure:
Those words don't feel like a Leader words to me...Domenicali: The problem at Ferrari is not Domenicali, I’m the first at work and the last to leave
15 October, 2013
Stefano Domenicali on the Ferrari pit wall
Ferrari failed to beat Red Bull for a fourth consecutive season because of two main factors, according to team boss Stefano Domenicali – neither of which is himself, claims the team chief.
Speaking to the Spanish sports newspaper AS, the Italian denied he is the main problem, ”You wouldn’t change Domenicali and win tomorrow.”
“Sure, my boss could do it, and if he does, I would always be grateful to Ferrari,” said Domenicali. ”But in Italy there is a saying: ‘When you leave the road you know, the other could be worse’.
“The problem is not Domenicali,” he added. “Domenicali is the first to come to work in the morning and the last to leave.
“If we had won in 2012, Domenicali would be a phenomenon, he would have done his job well,” he said.
Stefano Domenicali walks past the Red Bull pit garage
Indeed, together with Fernando Alonso – whose patience may now be running out – Ferrari has come tantalisingly close to winning under the Domenicali reign.
Domenicali thinks the main problems in 2013 were technical ones.
“The first is that at the beginning of the season we had a car that was competitive in qualifying and very good in race pace.
“The problem is that we could not improve the car steadily, because unfortunately in some cases we brought developments that, instead of improving, actually worsened the car,” he said.
Domenicali said that Ferrari has been working hard to right that wrong, including by completely overhauling the Maranello wind tunnel, and installing technical bosses – James Allison and Pat Fry – who are renowned for success in Formula 1′s aerodynamically-focused era.
Fernando Alonso with Stefano Domenicali
He explained that the second fundamental problem in 2013 has been Pirelli.
“I do not mention why or whether it was right or not, but in changing the tyre type we have not been able to exploit the best feature we had – our competitive race pace,” said Domenicali.
He also said that, despite coming so close in some years, not winning in the end had now increased the pressure on Ferrari to fever-pitch.
That has now resulted in the Alonso exit rumours, and “general criticism” that Domenicali thinks makes little sense.
“Like when it comes to the drivers,” he said, “many times I’ve read in the past ‘Ferrari has to change Felipe [Massa]‘.
“But now I read ‘Felipe has to stay!’ Which is it? A little rationality, please,” Domenicali pleaded.
“I’m the first to defend Felipe and I always will, because he is a special lad, someone dedicated to the team, but you have to make a professional assessment,” he added. (GMM)
Subbed by AJN.
http://grandprix247.com/2013/10/15/d...last-to-leave/
And speaking of himself as third party...
”But in Italy there is a saying: ‘When you leave the road you know, the other could be worse’.
“The problem is not Domenicali,” he added. “Domenicali is the first to come to work in the morning and the last to leave.
“If we had won in 2012, Domenicali would be a phenomenon, he would have done his job well,” he said.
OMG, so he is there earlier in the morning.... and goes out later, but what happens in between? not any brilliant idea, not any transformation.. just a slow cadence into nothingness..
Yes if Ferrari had won in 2012 Domenicalli would have some success, but everyone knows Alonso was driving a dog of a car. And to us He (SD) wouldn't be a phenomenon.
In my humble opinion, SD is blinding himself from the truth, he BELIEVES he deserves his position, and that all the problems with Ferrari are minor.
Do you believe that too?
Last edited by Aberracus; 15th October 2013 at 20:49.
Go Ferrari, beat them all!
Salut Gilles
Probably due to lousy translations as is normal.
Forza Ferrari
Cavallino Rampante
I don't believe he will leave Ferrari. The only thing he still want is a championship with Ferrari.
Full Member
ok i have gone to the original and i would say Greig is right the translation isn't very good. BUT Domenicalli is really blind,
look at this, they start speaking about how aerodynamics is bad for Ferrrari, and he Says next year (2014) thats not gonna be important... OMG, Aerodynamics is so important for Fuel economization and finding the loop in the rules ... Domenicalli can not think out of the box.
And he said this :La falta de aerodinámica ha matado a Ferrari estos años.
Así es. Si voy a que no hemos desarrollado bien el coche, es que hemos sufrido siempre en los últimos años por no haber entendido al 100% el uso de las descargas con efecto aerodinámico. Es un problema que llevamos dentro desde que existe el efecto aerodinámico y que no hemos sido capaces de resolver del todo. Lo hemos mejorado, pero nunca resuelto.
Pues deben resolverlo para 2014 porque otro año sin ganar ya sería demasiado.
Esto el próximo año no será tan importante. Además es otro motivo por el que creo que habiendo completado la organización que ahora tenemos con un gran director técnico, James Allison, que se ocupa de la proyección del coche, y un técnico, Pat Fry, que se ocupa del desarrollo del coche, de la simulación y gestión en pista teniendo los instrumentos renovados, y no teniendo un área de desarrollo para nosotros difícil, estoy seguro que tenemos todo para hacerlo bien. Dicho esto, siento mucho que este año esté yendo así aunque seamos segundos, que tampoco somos últimos
En Ferrari hay que ganar.
En un mundo así de competitivo, no se vive sólo con el nombre. Hay que hacer todo en el momento justo y en este periodo creo que hemos completado todo el cuadro para poder, de manera consolidada, ser muy buenos. Y además no habríamos recibido tantas críticas si hubiésemos ganado el año pasado, que fue extraordinario y sin el coche más rápido.
La cosa es que no han ganado. En otros deportes como el fútbol si no se gana se echa al entrenador. ¿Por qué sigue usted como jefe de Ferrari?
Has dicho una cosa equivocada. Yo no soy el entrenador, soy el administrador delegado de un equipo que hace deporte. Así que, el caso del fútbol, que si no ganas echan al entrenador, no es el caso de Ferrari. No se cambia a Domenicali y mañana ganas. Claro, mi jefe puede hacerlo; si lo hace, agradeceré siempre haber estado en Ferrari. Pero hay un dicho en Italia que dice: "Cuando dejas la carretera que conoces, la otra puede ser peor". Yo lo que puedo garantizar es que intento dar los mejores instrumentos a las personas que trabajan con el coche, que diseñan el coche, las elecciones de los pilotos, patrocinadores, hacer funcionar el sistema. Mi dedicación es total, sabiendo que podemos ser cambiados, pero no con la lógica del fútbol. Porque no es que si compro un defensa o un atacante, gano el campeonato. Este símil de fútbol no es la clave del éxito en F-1.
So we should keep him because it could be worse with other??????”But in Italy there is a saying: ‘When you leave the road you know, the other could be worse’.
Such a leader really...
Go Ferrari, beat them all!
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