F14-T- Development & News

[Hunkelberg]

I think abbottcostello posted several links which agree (and go into more detail) with my previous post.

But u don't read links soo....

Actually he posted stuff from F1.com technical news section which were posted 17th of April. In other words, hardly news at all. At least for me. But wait, what was your point ? Have you had one at all ? Having looked back at your posts I hardly see any. So...

[Kiwi Nick]

Sauber will have a PU software update for Spain.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113729

Is there any info if their updated software is from Ferrari or Sauber themselves.

The quote from the article says, "Sauber will also receive a software update for its customer Ferrari power units." Certainly sounds like it is not an update of their making since they will be receiving it.

I would assume that this also means that Ferrari will have a PU update.

[Hornet]

For instance, having watched onboard videos posted above and some others, on the long back-straight in shanghai, Merc did accelerate from 300 to 330 in 6 seconds, while FI could not reach 330 (it did 328) in same 6 seconds, even with the aid of DRS activated. What does this tell ? Actually nothing. Only that this bit ads supports to the thesis that somehow merc get more from same power unit.

You do realize that you are comparing two different cars, hence assuming if their gear ratio are the same, they will still have different top speed due to differences in aerodynamics, weight, etc

[abbottcostello]

For instance, having watched onboard videos posted above and some others, on the long back-straight in shanghai, Merc did accelerate from 300 to 330 in 6 seconds, while FI could not reach 330 (it did 328) in same 6 seconds, even with the aid of DRS activated. What does this tell ? Actually nothing. Only that this bit ads supports to the thesis that somehow merc get more from same power unit.

Or more from aero?... or more thru weight reduction?... or better packaging? Or maybe it is the sum of all of these things being a bit better than the rest of the field.

Honestly, after re-reading your posts I'm not sure what point you are trying to make!

[AfterLife]

The quote from the article says, "Sauber will also receive a software update for its customer Ferrari power units." Certainly sounds like it is not an update of their making since they will be receiving it.

I would assume that this also means that Ferrari will have a PU update.

Obviously i couldn't see that line yesterday because of hurry. Again thank you.

[Hunkelberg]

You do realize that you are comparing two different cars, hence assuming if their gear ratio are the same, they will still have different top speed due to differences in aerodynamics, weight, etc

I am not going to go through calculations on this one, but take a look at the following argument and see if you can refute it.

The current formula is very much fuel formula. That is, current engines could produce north of 1400hp if they were not limited on fuel consumption. There is only so much torque (hence indirectly power) that engines produce at given RPMs. These figures are governed by combustion and fuel flow.
The math and physics(thermodynamics) behind dictates that current turbo engines have almost flat torque from 5000-6000rpms up to 10500-11000rpms. After these sort of RPMs torque falls dramatically. There is a reason, why almost all of them up shift at 10500rpm. And that reason is fuel flow restriction that manifests itself as torque plummeting from certain RPMs.

Now, putting that aside, merc and FI have supposedly same engine and same wheels. Following paragraph is about these two teams. Of course, the gearing is different(gear ratios, final drive ratio) energy harvest modes are different etc. But, when you are going on the longest straight of the season, your ultimate goal is to travel as fast as your machine can, not to loose time. I say gearing differences after certain speeds do not matter as they are not that dramatically different anyway to begin with and teams are smart enough to select gears to keep acceleration going at the optimum engine revs. And since the engine torque is so flat, it does not particularly matter if one team short shifts at 9000 and other shifts at 11000. What they have is roughly same number of kWs to accelerate roughly same weight. And there is only one way to do this optimally. Teams deviate from this optimum but the fact that the torque is so flat it compensates for these deviations from optimum. And the time it takes to do 330km/s from 300 is pure display of power. Of course, you say they have different Cd coefficients(aero) and drag increases quadratically with speed, (hence there is two times more drag at 300 than at 200) while Cd is linear coefficient. Therefore, when one car is using DRS and the other is not, the car with DRS is much more aero efficient. For example, this is why even caterham, if it uses DRS will be faster with Renault power on long straight than work merc or Ferrari.

Now I go back to my example, where Merc was faster than FI with DRS in the sprint from 300 to 330. This to me says that somehow merc is using its PU in a way that its customer team can not. And the difference may come from the way they harvest and budget the power around the other part of the lap. This is where merc is able to get something extra from their H and K units that others obviously can not.

Makes sense?

[Kiwi Nick]

Hulky says - "...when you are going on the longest straight of the season, your ultimate goal is to travel as fast as your machine can, not to loose time." If this notion held true, RBR would not have won very many races as they are almost always amongst the slowest cars on any straight anywhere.

However, let's just say that we agree with your notion. It would then appear that Ferrari's PU is not so bad, given Alonso's podium finish in China.

As for your overall question..."Makes (sic) sense?" I would say resoundingly...maybe!

[wisepie]

This is all fascinating stuff and very enlightening, but for those of us who are less able to understand the technical gubbins relating to the minutiae of these engines, it's all a bit mind-boggling. I still think it's totally wrong for an engine freeze to be so restrictive if it means that Merc can just walk away with every race, thst will damage the sport even more than all the other confusing regulations. Hopefully Ferrari can work a way round it and at least become the second best team that Pat Fry referred to, but that won't satisfy any of us!

[Kiwi Nick]

I love a man who can use "gubbins" in a coherent sentence. Congratulations!

[Alesi1]

This is all fascinating stuff and very enlightening, but for those of us who are less able to understand the technical gubbins relating to the minutiae of these engines, it's all a bit mind-boggling. I still think it's totally wrong for an engine freeze to be so restrictive if it means that Merc can just walk away with every race, thst will damage the sport even more than all the other confusing regulations. Hopefully Ferrari can work a way round it and at least become the second best team that Pat Fry referred to, but that won't satisfy any of us!

That's the problem. F1 has never been more predictable. Once the pecking order is established, due to restrictions on testing and in particular engine development given the current new engine formula, it is unlikely to change much depending on the gap. Merc have a huge gap largely engine based and we are not allowed to bridge that gap effectively handing them the championship. So is it really a 'greener f1' if the result is pretty much over and we are rocking up wasting tyres etc for the obvious to happen. What's the point of racing if the result is so obvious. it's up to the teams to catch up, like tey once could in the past, and give some credibility to the contest. The trade is mechanical development on the hybrid power units that will one day feed into our cars. Right now it is all software changes. Wake up jean Todt, I preferred f1 when Mosley was in charge.

[abbottcostello]

The way I look at it, being limited by fuel & aero restrictions, there is a point where you could not possibly do a faster lap time, both for qualy & race. The nearer a car is to that maximum, the more difficult it becomes to realize any gains & they are likely to be smaller gains. The farther away you are from the max., more possibilities exist & the gains have the possibility to be larger.
If that is reasonable logic, everyone on the grid has an opportunity to make larger gains than Merc. I am hoping Ferrari, with a new TP & a streamlining of their processes, are in a good position to exploit this.

[Kiwi Nick]

The way I look at it, being limited by fuel & aero restrictions, there is a point where you could not possibly do a faster lap time, both for qualy & race. The nearer a car is to that maximum, the more difficult it becomes to realize any gains & they are likely to be smaller gains. The farther away you are from the max., more possibilities exist & the gains have the possibility to be larger.
If that is reasonable logic, everyone on the grid has an opportunity to make larger gains than Merc. I am hoping Ferrari, with a new TP & a streamlining of their processes, are in a good position to exploit this.

Obviously there is a great difference between opportunity and ability. Theoretically, every team on the grid has the opportunity to create the maximum car under the current regulations. Despite the opportunity, not all have the ability and they will be limited by their ability far more than the regulations. Those who are farthest behind will make large gains or small gains based on their ability, not their current deficit in performance.

[abbottcostello]

Obviously there is a great difference between opportunity and ability. Theoretically, every team on the grid has the opportunity to create the maximum car under the current regulations. Despite the opportunity, not all have the ability and they will be limited by their ability far more than the regulations. Those who are farthest behind will make large gains or small gains based on their ability, not their current deficit in performance.

Agree completely, just wanted to make the point that given the present rules, you could only get so much speed or more importantly, the lowest lap time. Makes me feel a little more hopeful that there is more for Ferrari to gain (or secrets to discover), than is left for Merc to exploit. Of course the reality of being locked into our current design will probably prevent some of the secrets being used, but that's why they all hire clever engineers, to come up with clever solutions.

If Ferrari is poised to do this within this season, that is the big question & what I look for them to do.

Hope springs eternal!

[wisepie]

I love a man who can use "gubbins" in a coherent sentence. Congratulations!

Ha ha Kiwi Nick, thanks for the compliment, if that's what was intended! I'm still baffled by those technical 'gubbins', though, even when it's explained in layman's terms, maybe I'm just too ancient to comprehend it all, but I do try. Sad.

[Majki2111]

Ok is there any on toppic news right now? There should be right.

[stefa]

3 weeks brake, makes it very boring!

[FerrariF60]

3 weeks brake, makes it very boring!

yep, it may be boring for us FANS, but back in Maranello i'm willing to bet my bottom DOLLAR that everyone down to the janitor are working 24 Hours around the clock in order to bring more updates and SPEED to the F14T..

i have faith in our TEAM guys....it may not be enough to catch the Mercs just YET, but i have a feeling we'll be there or thereabouts.....

FORZA FERRARI

[Kiwi Nick]

Ha ha Kiwi Nick, thanks for the compliment, if that's what was intended! I'm still baffled by those technical 'gubbins', though, even when it's explained in layman's terms, maybe I'm just too ancient to comprehend it all, but I do try. Sad.

Compliment intended. On the ancient front, my favorite driver is Sir John Surtees and Fangio drove (very briefly) for the father of my high school chums.

[Kiwi Nick]

yep, it may be boring for us FANS, but back in Maranello i'm willing to bet my bottom DOLLAR that everyone down to the janitor are working 24 Hours around the clock in order to bring more updates and SPEED to the F14T..

i have faith in our TEAM guys....it may not be enough to catch the Mercs just YET, but i have a feeling we'll be there or thereabouts.....

FORZA FERRARI

Yep, the F14T would have to have so many updates that it would virtually be a new car. Then again...

[abbottcostello]

For anyone interested in a video explaining the 2014 Ferrari steering wheel...

Video - the Formula One steering wheel, 2014 style02 May 2014


As a result of 2014's substantial regulation changes, steering wheels have evolved significantly this season. Here we take a look at the differences between Ferrari's 2013 and 2014 models....»




Not really new news, even official F1 site must be desperately bored, as this is their latest Technical article!

[abbottcostello]

Compliment intended. On the ancient front, my favorite driver is Sir John Surtees and Fangio drove (very briefly) for the father of my high school chums.

Regarding gubbins... , will try hard to use a few times to get it into my linguistic repertoire.
Love seeing those "ancient" names bandied about, gave me the urge to dig out my old race programs, I remember the first Ferraris I rooted for were being driven by Ickx & Regazzoni!

[wisepie]

Compliment intended. On the ancient front, my favorite driver is Sir John Surtees and Fangio drove (very briefly) for the father of my high school chums.

Hence your undoubted knowledge and appreciation of what used to be Formula One!!

[wisepie]

Regarding gubbins... , will try hard to use a few times to get it into my linguistic repertoire.
Love seeing those "ancient" names bandied about, gave me the urge to dig out my old race programs, I remember the first Ferraris I rooted for were being driven by Ickx & Regazzoni!

What have I started with 'gubbins', I always thought it was one of those words used when you couldn't find the correct name for something. It must be my memory, as the drivers I rooted for first were Bandini and Scarfiotti!! Maybe 'gubbins' is an ancient English word for people who can't remember much as they age? Hmmph.

[Majki2111]

http://autosprint.corrieredellosport...ferrari/15187/
? I tought sidepods were strong points of F14T.

[windwaves]

http://autosprint.corrieredellosport...ferrari/15187/
? I tought sidepods were strong points of F14T.

I thought there were no strong points whatsoever in the F14T.

[Paulpg87]

http://autosprint.corrieredellosport...ferrari/15187/
? I tought sidepods were strong points of F14T.

It also states that we can't really recover engine deficit as its due to smaller turbo compared to mercedes.

[Nero Horse]

I thought there were no strong points whatsoever in the F14T.

The chassis and aerodynamics seem to be quite good actually, but it's the PU that is holding us back the most at the moment.

[ntukza]

It also states that we can't really recover engine deficit as its due to smaller turbo compared to mercedes.

Oh how we bragged about being the best engine builders. It seems while we were blowing our own horn, Mercedes were quietly building a monster.

[FerrariF60]

Oh how we bragged about being the best engine builders. It seems while we were blowing our own horn, Mercedes were quietly building a monster.

nobody blew any HORN at Ferrari....it was all the RUMORS that fans made up about US having the best engine, lightest and made of special materials...Ferrari i dont' think it had anything to do with any of the rumors

but yeah, Merc have done a really GOOD JOB....hats off to them

[Kyss4k]

nobody blew any HORN at Ferrari....it was all the RUMORS that fans made up about US having the best engine, lightest and made of special materials...Ferrari i dont' think it had anything to do with any of the rumors

but yeah, Merc have done a really GOOD JOB....hats off to them

Ferrari wanted ana engine F1 so bad and complained ALL the time for F1 not beeing about engines and that that they are not building planes, but cars etc... After all that talk, they come up with an engine that's like GP2 engine in comparison with Merc.