Car #3 is excluded from race results

[Sonic Feathers]

They've kept fair on similar treatment to what they metered out to Sauber last year, The FIA have disqualified Red Bull for fuel infringement!
See both Autosport & PlanetF1 for: FIA-explanation-for-Riccardo-exclusion

Not that any Tifosi will be any happier with a P4 place finish than a 5th or a P6 instead of 7th.

[Nero Horse]

It means more points for Ferrari, so I'm happy.

[ALO]

Good for us!

[Hornet]

Red Bull have appealed the decision. No idea when the appeal outcome will be know, or has it been decided already?

[Ed Harley]

You do realize that if the problem really exists ie. that the FIA's fuel sensors are not measuring the fuel flow correctly, same risk applies to Ferrari and other teams as well?

[Infi24r]

I dont understand Red Bull's reasoning. The FIA told them the issues, they knew they would get disqualified, why didn't they just comply mid race?

[Ed Harley]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112968

The Red Bull Formula 1 team has no doubts that its fuel flow rate was within the FIA's maximum limits, despite Daniel Ricciardo's exclusion from the Australian Grand Prix.

Team boss Christian Horner said on Sunday night that there was 'zero' variance from the 100kg/h limit on Red Bull's own calibrated equipment that it relied on, after faults meant it did not trust the FIA's own sensor.

"These fuel-flow sensors that are provided by the FIA to measure fuel have proved problematic down the pitlane since their introduction in testing," said Horner, speaking after news broke of Daniel Ricciardo's disqualification from second place.

"There have been discrepancies and they have been unreliable - indeed some cars may well have run without them in the race itself or failed in the race itself.

"We had a fuel-flow sensor that was fitted to the car that we believed had an error.

"Based on our calculation on the fuel that the injectors are providing to the engine, which is a calibrated piece of equipment and is consistently standard across the pitlane, there is zero variance."

Horner confirmed that Red Bull had been told by the FIA that the governing body felt its fuel flow use in the race was too high - but said it did not turn down the rate because it felt the governing body's opinion was incorrect as it believed the sensor was producing wrong data.

"They informed us [to turn the flow down], and we informed them that we had serious concerns over their sensors," he said.

"We believed on our reading, otherwise there was a situation where you are reducing significant amounts of power in the engine at a time when we believe we fully comply within the regulations.

"We end up in a situation where, depending on the calibration of your sensor, of plus or minus, it will dictate who is going to be competitive and who isn't."

[nash929]

At this point, I tend to believe with the FIA.

Of course, Horner would say it's a defective equipment. It's along the lines that the Tires they started last year was wrong. They're just using their position they have to pull in and change the regu

[wacc]

First of all that rule is absolutly pointless. The 100 kg of fuel per race is enough by itself. Let the teams do what they want with those 100 kg.

[voiko]

First of all that rule is absolutly poitless. The 100 kg of fuel per race is enough by itself. Let the teams do what they want with those 100 kg.

Agree it shouldnt matter should it? Also maybe we should start to 'not trust the FIA sensors' if this is overturned!

[Senna4Ever]

At this point, I tend to believe with the FIA.

Of course, Horner would say it's a defective equipment. It's along the lines that the Tires they started last year was wrong. They're just using their position they have to pull in and change the regu

In Austrian newspaper I read during breakfast that also other teams aren't sure if the sensor works really accurate - so it isn't RB alone who thinks that.

[Nick Singer]

Prius engines running on strictly limited, finely metered quantities of cow dung - fine, just not in Grand Prix racing! #Grrrrr!

[Hornet]

Agree it shouldnt matter should it? Also maybe we should start to 'not trust the FIA sensors' if this is overturned!

Yep, if RB gets away with this, then Ferrari should also start ignoring the stewards warning, make up our own readings, and strongly believe in them.

This is probably the kind of trickery Luca was referring to.

[Greig]

First of all that rule is absolutly pointless. The 100 kg of fuel per race is enough by itself. Let the teams do what they want with those 100 kg.

Indeed, all they need to monitor is 100kg of fuel used in the race, the teams can then decide how to use it.

[Alessandra]

It's quoted that both Ferrari and Merc were also warned and made changes accordingly.http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/0...peal/#comments

Regardless of the potential rights or wrongs of the technology you can't have teams picking and choosing what rules they'll comply with and what they won't.
RBR has had an amazing run of success over 4 or so years, it's, I suppose, understandable that they've come to see themsleves as superior to other teams in all areas, but no team can be above the rules of the sport, no matter how much they think they know best. I'm sorry for Ricciardo but not RBR.

[Tobes]

First of all that rule is absolutly pointless. The 100 kg of fuel per race is enough by itself. Let the teams do what they want with those 100 kg.

I think they can use the fuel however they see fit, my understanding is that the cars will carry more than 100kg when they leave the garage, the 100kg limit is from lights out to flag so the cars need fuel to get to the grid and get back to the pits after the race, i'm assuming to be disqualified they have exceeded the 100kg limit by the end of the race, they were advised during the race to turn down the engine or they would exceed their limit but chose to ignore that advice and carry on and argue their case after the event. I appreciate that Red Bull are not the only team to claim to have had problems with the FIA fuel flow meters, but they are the only team that appears to have exceeded the limit, think it's very unlikely The FIA would exclude Ricciardo unless they were 110% sure they were correct, and they very rarely overturn decisions on appeal, feel sorry for Ricciardo but his team should've done as they were asked and argued their case after the race, he would probably have still got a podium, the team made their decision and now have to face the consequences...

[Senna4Ever]

Indeed, all they need to monitor is 100kg of fuel used in the race, the teams can then decide how to use it.

is there a statement or other information why FIA want to know that in that detail.
Is there a known reason?

(Sensor makes measurement right before green lights go on) - (Sensor makes measurement right after crossing the finish line) <= 100kg
whatever happens in-between it is up to the tactics of the team ...

so there must be a reason why FIA want to know during the whole race and also give advices to the teams when they have to reduce the consumption ... which is strange enough that they did it ...

[fratelliferrari]

It means more points for Ferrari, so I'm happy.

[shamim179]

We're talking about the fuel flow rate here and not the total amount of fuel that is used over a race distance. Fuel flow rate is largely dictated by RPM and volumetric efficiency. So during the race the RPM might have gone too high for too long on numerous occasions that yielded a fuel flow rate that is over the limit.

[Senna4Ever]

We're talking about the fuel flow rate here and not the total amount of fuel that is used over a race distance. Fuel flow rate is largely dictated by RPM and volumetric efficiency. So during the race the RPM might have gone too high for too long on numerous occasions that yielded a fuel flow rate that is over the limit.

Okay ... thanks for explanation
But it is still not really clear to me why FIA is watching this too ... additional to the 100kg sprit limit ... ???
Would it mean that I could compensate a lack of ERS power with more fuel flow rate ... would that go in this direction?

rg

[wacc]

From sporting regs:

No car is permitted to consume more than 100kg of fuel, from the time at which the signal to start the race is given to the time each car crosses the Line after the end-of-race signal has been given. Other than in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the stewards of the meeting), any driver exceeding this limit will be excluded from the race results.

From tech. regs:

Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.

At any moment in time their consumption must not exceed 100kg/h (0,027kg/s) which is measured by fuel flow sensor every 0.2s. This rule may lead to some controversial situations because the sensors might not be always functioning flawlessly and there might be deviations. FIA made it too complicated. They should not require something that they are not able to judge reliably.

[Ste]

I think they can use the fuel however they see fit, my understanding is that the cars will carry more than 100kg when they leave the garage, the 100kg limit is from lights out to flag so the cars need fuel to get to the grid and get back to the pits after the race, i'm assuming to be disqualified they have exceeded the 100kg limit by the end of the race, they were advised during the race to turn down the engine or they would exceed their limit but chose to ignore that advice and carry on and argue their case after the event. I appreciate that Red Bull are not the only team to claim to have had problems with the FIA fuel flow meters, but they are the only team that appears to have exceeded the limit, think it's very unlikely The FIA would exclude Ricciardo unless they were 110% sure they were correct, and they very rarely overturn decisions on appeal, feel sorry for Ricciardo but his team should've done as they were asked and argued their case after the race, he would probably have still got a podium, the team made their decision and now have to face the consequences...

There's a 100KG fuel limit as well as a 100kg/hr fuel flow rate.

The latter is measured on an 'instant' basis rather than over a longer period of time (see the post above - measured every 0.2s). Running at 100kg/hr for the entire race is of course impossible because they'd only last an hour. Presumably the flow varies depending on how much throttle is applied - flooring it will use a higher flow rate than slowly increasing it. Red Bull were regularly above 100kg/hr which I think means they 'spiked' above it a lot. They were warned, as were others and they were the only ones who decided to do nothing about it. Others are reported to have reduced their flow to a maximum of 96kg/hr so they knew they were legal.

I agree that the second limit is ridiculous. Teams should be able to use the fuel however they like. This would mean in the rare case that a team had loads of fuel left at the end, they couldn't go as fast as their true potential because they'd be limited by the fuel flow restriction which effectively defines their maximum potential.

[brembo man]

The boy deserves 2nd place. If it was Vettel would they have even mentioned it?

[eugene22n]

The reason they want to cap flow rate is because if they don't it opens up a whole arms race. Teams would go wildly over the flow rate in certain race conditions in order to pass other cars or to even burn off excess fuel if there are extended safety car conditions. The engine guys would find ways of supporting and exploiting super rich operating conditions.

The FIA don't this to be a part of the development battle.

Red Bull are just a bunch of jerks for not following the rules that everybody else were following. Simple as that. Follow the rule and then complain afterwards to the FIA like everybody else did.

[wacc]

It depens on how much of an unfair advantage did they gain. He deserved 2nd place only if the advantage was negligible.
I do not think it would be different if it was Vettel.

EDIT:
eugene22n> that is not sufficient reason to do it in my opinion. I would rather think they wanted to cap the engine power this way for the cars not to be too fast.

[eugene22n]

The FIA and the sport cannot tolerate a team directly ignoring their authority. Who cares if Daniel gain a negligible advantage or not.

[Hornet]

According to Horner's word, he admits that there is a significant performance advantage. So, although it was not Ric fault and it's unfortunate for him, the only right thing to do is to disallow his result as RB chose to ignore the warning to keep their performance advantage.

"They informed us [to turn the flow down], and we informed them that we had serious concerns over their sensors," he said.

"We believed on our reading, otherwise there was a situation where you are reducing significant amounts of power in the engine at a time when we believe we fully comply within the regulations.

[Senna4Ever]

Found this in an Austrian Newspaper

It's about the Article 5.1 of the Technical Regulations of the World Automobile Federation FIA, which regulates the specifications of the engines. In section 5.1.4 indicates that per hour is not more than 100 kg of fuel may be injected into the six combustion chambers of the engine. This limit applies above a speed of 10,500 revolutions per minute. The purpose is that besides the new ERS (Energy Recovery System) and its stored energy - it provides 33 seconds per lap 163 additional horsepower - even on the fuel injection any increase in performance can not be achieved.

so if I understand it right this regulation is to prevent that teams compensate their weakness of ERS with extra power from the engine itself ...

And no ... my posting has nothing to do with having mercy with the Cheaters ...
I just wanted to understand the purpose of the flow control ... now I know ...

[eugene22n]

The rule, its purpose, wisdom ect, has nothing to do with the simple fact that Red Bull got an order from the FIA during the race and just said "nope we'll do our thing."

Would have been more appropriate to just black flag them at the time and not do this afterwards.

Seems like Mercedes and Ferrari got the same types of requests from the FIA and followed their instructions.

Frankly I'm surprised that anywhere, especially on a Ferrari board that Red Bull would get any consideration in this matter. Their admitted arrogance in this matter is simple.

[Nero Horse]

The rule, its purpose, wisdom ect, has nothing to do with the simple fact that Red Bull got an order from the FIA during the race and just said "nope we'll do our thing."

Would have been more appropriate to just black flag them at the time and not do this afterwards.

Seems like Mercedes and Ferrari got the same types of requests from the FIA and followed their instructions.

Frankly I'm surprised that anywhere, especially on a Ferrari board that Red Bull would get any consideration in this matter. Their admitted arrogance in this matter is simple.

+1000

Well said.