Should Ferrari pay more attention to finding a better aerodynamicists and designers?

[Gerhard Berger]

2011 was Costas project.A donkey could lead the designer team of Mercedes or Red Bull,did you never heard of Rob Marshall?he is the chief designer of Red Bull and hardly a genious.They already had a very good wind tunnel,a very functioning organisation and a very good cfd department before he came along,he has nothing to do with the development of the team until 2012.When he was TD at Ferrari with all that budget he wasnt bothered to work on developing all these tools other teams already had,and he was TD for 6 years.

A donkey could lead the design team at Red Bull and Mercedes? really? based on what? Why did Brawn decide to hire Costa? why not hire someone cheaper?

Rob Marshall is a very good designer at Red Bull, and was very good at Renault during the Alonso championship years.

It is the team principles job to provide his workers with the tools to complete their jobs. Faulty wind tunnel and lack of CFD lies at his feet. Nothings improved since Costa left, so you can draw your own conclusions from that...

[Gerhard Berger]

Wow u shud follow F1 more closely.
The 2011 car was as dog in suspension stiffness & performance, lacked the cutting edge development tools needed in factory. Pat Fry was hired primarily to get our technical dept up to pace with the front running teams(Mclaren & RB den) andhe was one of the engineers we were following since 2007 IIRC

F150 was weakest aerodynamically. In terms of mechanical performance, it was much closer to RB and Mclaren (but still behind both of them). Just look at the performance in tracks like Monaco and Canada (where mechanical grip is very important) compared to an aero dependent track like Barcelona.

Mechanical grip is worse since Fry took over. Look at our performance at bumpy tracks like Hungary and Singapore. Look at the poor traction we've had since 2012.

[PadGeT]

A donkey could lead the design team at Red Bull and Mercedes? really? based on what? Why did Brawn decide to hire Costa? why not hire someone cheaper?

Nothings improved since Costa left, so you can draw your own conclusions from that...

Not exactly our simulation tools have improved, track performance of mechanics and pit stops have been worldclass, strategy team got a huge boost wid the appointment of Neil Martin. Costa was known for being a suspension genius. In his area of expertise he got bullied by Fry imo.

[Greig]

Based on him leading the design team for Mercedes, which is the best car so far this season.

Fry is the one who replaced Costa as technical director, hence i brought him up.

So 2 race wins = one of best designers in F1 these days?

[PadGeT]

F150 was weakest aerodynamically. In terms of mechanical performance, it was much closer to RB and Mclaren (but still behind both of them). Just look at the performance in tracks like Monaco and Canada (where mechanical grip is very important) compared to an aero dependent track like Barcelona.

Mechanical grip is worse since Fry took over. Look at our performance at bumpy tracks like Hungary and Singapore. Look at the poor traction we've had since 2012.

I think watever Fry did, at least it wasn't as shambolic as 2009 and 2011. Just have to notice the state 2012 car was under initially it was a revolutionary step design wise such was the state of 2011 car performance wise, while other teams concentrated on evolving their 2011 ones. And before u start bashing our performance at the start of 2012, remember every team in the pitlane found it difficult to get DF due to ban of blown diffusers, and took some time b4 betting their aero in place and that was nothing to do wid Fry. Its amazing where the team finished eventually, had it been Costa god knows where we would have been at da end of the year.

[Greig]

F150 was weakest aerodynamically. In terms of mechanical performance, it was much closer to RB and Mclaren (but still behind both of them). Just look at the performance in tracks like Monaco and Canada (where mechanical grip is very important) compared to an aero dependent track like Barcelona.

Mechanical grip is worse since Fry took over. Look at our performance at bumpy tracks like Hungary and Singapore. Look at the poor traction we've had since 2012.

All this does still not mean Costa is some sort of design genius that we are greatly missing.

[Gerhard Berger]

Not exactly our simulation tools have improved, track performance of mechanics and pit stops have been worldclass, strategy team got a huge boost wid the appointment of Neil Martin. Costa was known for being a suspension genius. In his area of expertise he got bullied by Fry imo.

Track performance of mechanics and pit stops was the responsibility of Dyer, not Costa.

I'll believe our simulation tools have been improved when we are able to out develop the likes of Merc and RB over a season (or even match them).

Look at Fry's history - he's also a suspension specialist. I don't see how he's bullied Costa in this area. A car with a good suspension would perform best at bumpy tracks like Monaco, Hungary and Singapore. Our performance has been lacking at these tracks since Fry took over. You want to look at a car with great suspension - look no further than the F10. I remember at Bahrain there was a huge bump at turn 8 (on the long version used for 2010). Whilst the Mclaren's had to lift for this bump, Ferrari's just drove over it as i it wasn't there.

[Gerhard Berger]

All this does still not mean Costa is some sort of design genius that we are greatly missing.

I never claimed was a design genius. Only that he is one of the best ones out there, and we shouldn't have let go of him so easily.

[Greig]

I never claimed was a design genius. Only that he is one of the best ones out there, and we shouldn't have let go of him so easily.

One of the best which you based on 2 races so far this season, ignoring the disasters we had with him being one of the best?

[PadGeT]

I never claimed was a design genius. Only that he is one of the best ones out there, and we shouldn't have let go of him so easily.

I tell u this because i feel u are drifting from the problem at hand. Costa isn't one we are missing. Its our lack of exhaust related aero knowledge that is hurting us the most. Fry knew about this and consequently advised Monte to hire Allison.
Also if Costa was so precious, i believe RB would have poached him away from us along time ago. I would take Helmut Marko's advice over urs any day on dat front.

[Gerhard Berger]

I think watever Fry did, at least it wasn't as shambolic as 2009 and 2011. Just have to notice the state 2012 car was under initially it was a revolutionary step design wise such was the state of 2011 car performance wise, while other teams concentrated on evolving their 2011 ones. And before u start bashing our performance at the start of 2012, remember every team in the pitlane found it difficult to get DF due to ban of blown diffusers, and took some time b4 betting their aero in place and that was nothing to do wid Fry. Its amazing where the team finished eventually, had it been Costa god knows where we would have been at da end of the year.

I doubt Fry would have done any better in 2009 (just look at what he did at Mclaren).

2012 we started in very bad shape mainly because of the failed acer ducts. We did well to recover so quickly (by Barcelona, we were competitive again). However, we shouldn't have started so badly, especially considering we gave up on 2011 to focus on 2012. In the end the F2012 was the fastest car at Monza and maybe Montreal, that's it.

Last year, we started well, though according to Fry's interview with AMuS, this was because we essentially lucked into the tyres suiting the car.

[Gerhard Berger]

I tell u this because i feel u are drifting from the problem at hand. Costa isn't one we are missing. Its our lack of exhaust related aero knowledge that is hurting us the most. Fry knew about this and consequently advised Monte to hire Allison.

Bit late now. EBD's are banned now.

[Greig]

I doubt Fry would have done any better in 2009 (just look at what he did at Mclaren).

2012 we started in very bad shape mainly because of the failed acer ducts. We did well to recover so quickly (by Barcelona, we were competitive again). However, we shouldn't have started so badly, especially considering we gave up on 2011 to focus on 2012. In the end the F2012 was the fastest car at Monza and maybe Montreal, that's it.

Last year, we started well, though according to Fry's interview with AMuS, this was because we essentially lucked into the tyres suiting the car.

We lucked into the tyres suiting us? that's straight from the Red Bull excuses handbook.

[Gerhard Berger]

One of the best which you based on 2 races so far this season, ignoring the disasters we had with him being one of the best?

Well i thought our problems in 2011 were due to the wind tunnel?

[Gerhard Berger]

We lucked into the tyres suiting us? that's straight from the Red Bull excuses handbook.

Do you have the Ferrari F138 tailor-made for the 2013er tires? Adrian Newey doubts that such a thing was possible.
Fry: You had to have to be very smart when you read out on the basis of a test in Brazil in 2012 from the data so much that you could tailor your car for it. With us, there were only seven rounds. We have benefited from the general Chartakteristik our cars. They are nice to the tires for years. We rarely had problems with overheating of the tire. It had nothing to do with the fact that we have built a very smart car for these tires. It simply came by chance.

http://www.thescuderia.net/forums/sh...view-with-AMuS

(AMuS is usually one of the most reliable sources for F1).

[PadGeT]

Track performance of mechanics and pit stops was the responsibility of Dyer, not Costa.

I'll believe our simulation tools have been improved when we are able to out develop the likes of Merc and RB over a season (or even match them).

Look at Fry's history - he's also a suspension specialist. I don't see how he's bullied Costa in this area. A car with a good suspension would perform best at bumpy tracks like Monaco, Hungary and Singapore. Our performance has been lacking at these tracks since Fry took over. You want to look at a car with great suspension - look no further than the F10. I remember at Bahrain there was a huge bump at turn 8 (on the long version used for 2010). Whilst the Mclaren's had to lift for this bump, Ferrari's just drove over it as i it wasn't there.

Ya, and where did our F10 finished in constructor's standings? 100 points less dan RB considering that Ferrari stopped their 2009 car development for 2010 and had quite a head start than any other team with the biggest budgest in the paddock.
And he did bully Costa. Remember its Luca who fired Costa and he has also had a preference for Italian engineers.

[PadGeT]

Bit late now. EBD's are banned now.

Still plenty of blowing going on (diffuser isnt the only thing). Thats what they are hired to do, Where do u think RB is ahead of other teams?

[Gerhard Berger]

Ya, and where did our F10 finished in constructor's standings? 100 points less dan RB considering that Ferrari stopped their 2009 car development for 2010 and had quite a head start than any other team with the biggest budgest in the paddock.
And he did bully Costa. Remember its Luca who fired Costa and he has also had a preference for Italian engineers.

Mechanically, the F10 was better than anything Fry has produced since.

And we don't have the biggest budget - Red Bull has a bigger budget.

[Gerhard Berger]

Still plenty of blowing going on (diffuser isnt the only thing). Thats what they are hired to do, Where do u think RB is ahead of other teams?

The turbo means that exhaust blowing is not very powerful anymore. However, i am still intrigued as to how RB are running such a massive rake despite not being able to blow the diffuser anymore. I imagine their very tight packaging gives them some advantages (just look how tight their rear end is).

[PadGeT]

Its futile to talk to you sir. How can u consider a 2010 prototype to be structurally superior to our 2013 iteration, considering we got our 2010 car blueprint.

[PadGeT]

The turbo means that exhaust blowing is not very powerful anymore. However, i am still intrigued as to how RB are running such a massive rake despite not being able to blow the diffuser anymore. I imagine their very tight packaging gives them some advantages (just look how tight their rear end is).

No look at their floor and splitters & the use of exhaust varies from team to team.

[Rob]

The turbo means that exhaust blowing is not very powerful anymore. However, i am still intrigued as to how RB are running such a massive rake despite not being able to blow the diffuser anymore. I imagine their very tight packaging gives them some advantages (just look how tight their rear end is).

having high rake has nothing to do with EBDs, really. As it did help with them, but it just creates an aggressive angle of attack for the wings and difusser, and just helps giving a little more D/F at the rear.

[PadGeT]

To challenge Red Bull who lets face it, been the benchmark in recent years, Ferrari faced its toughest challenge yet. Its a big margin that the team has got to reduce and it wont happen instantly. I would say we need to look at who our weakest links are and remove them one by one till we get a strong unified core team to properly challenge RB and Mercs. We need to be cold and ruthless and push the limits (much easier said than done).

[PadGeT]

And we don't have the biggest budget - Red Bull has a bigger budget.

No we still have the biggest budget. Whatever RB hides financially, we can hide it as well.

[Senna4Ever]

Nothing to do on this scene
We have the best people already - even when we don't have the most of it ...

what nearly no one knows: due to our series from 2000 to 2004 and also again 2005 and 2006 we just had so sign a contract 2004 that we are not allowed to show to make the champion ships a little bit more exciting and not steeling show for others. Bernie will tell us if its time again ... Probably when his dear boy is coming to Ferrari ... So success is coming. Does anyone here really believe that we're not able to build the best engine in the field even we complained that F1 is too much areo?

[Hermann]

Nothing to do on this scene
We have the best people already - even when we don't have the most of it ...

what nearly no one knows: due to our series from 2000 to 2004 and also again 2005 and 2006 we just had so sign a contract 2004 that we are not allowed to show to make the champion ships a little bit more exciting and not steeling show for others. Bernie will tell us if its time again ... Probably when his dear boy is coming to Ferrari ... So success is coming. Does anyone here really believe that we're not able to build the best engine in the field even we complained that F1 is too much areo?

Wow- thats one heck of a conspiracy theory! Care to join CNN, they still need more ideas about MH370?

[Senna4Ever]

Wow- thats one heck of a conspiracy theory! Care to join CNN, they still need more ideas about MH370?

not bad, right?
Just gave up on MH370 ... what conspiracy CNN is talking?

[Kyss4k]

having high rake has nothing to do with EBDs, really. As it did help with them, but it just creates an aggressive angle of attack for the wings and difusser, and just helps giving a little more D/F at the rear.

Oh, quite the opposite actually. The echaust gasses were mostly used to seal the diffuser. Meaning that they would "keep" the air from leaking out of the sides of the diffuser, when running high rakes.

I have to say, GB had a few good points here. For example the F10 was really mechanically a great car. I still remember the bumps on the "new" Bahrain track and us having no issues with them what so ever. And even before I don't recall any traction issues compared to the opposition. Don't know about 2005 as I was not really watching F1 back then, but I somehow believe, the issues we had were caused by tyre issues... ?

[Hermann]

not bad, right?
Just gave up on MH370 ... what conspiracy CNN is talking?

Since that would be seriously off topic i'd rather not go there

[Gerhard Berger]

having high rake has nothing to do with EBDs, really. As it did help with them, but it just creates an aggressive angle of attack for the wings and difusser, and just helps giving a little more D/F at the rear.

Gives more d/f at the rear by making the diffuser larger. However, you can only run such a large rake if you can seal the diffuser (which is where EBD was so crucial). Otherwise you will have tyre squirt entering the diffuser and ruining the clean airflow.

EDIT: Just seen Kyss4k has explained this very well.