FIA issues new directive to measure fuel pressure

[Sriharsha]

In Midst of the Weekend FIA issued a new directive which called for teams to measure the pressure at multiple points in the fuel system
FIA is asked to introduce these systems by Chinese Grand Prix Which is Round 3 of Formula 1 2015 season or earliest at Malaysian Grand Prix as each team set to contact by FIA to evaluate how Fuel Pressure is measured. This is done to closely monitor Technical regulation 5.10.5 "any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited"
Currently the fuel flow meter is inside the fuel tank and there is some distance between the fuel flow sensor and the direct fuel injectors

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118066

FIA is suspecting some team or some engine manufacturer is abusing the rule by having different pressures at different places to gain uneven advantage after the fuel flow meter check is done. Yet to see which team it is.

[Sriharsha]

From Another forum (F1T)

Reducing the pressure in the lines will cause lighter components of the fuel to vaporise if the pressure is reduced below the vapor pressure of that component. This would potentially allow ALL THE FUEL between the flow meter and the pump at the engine to be used for a short term power boost.

I just did a quick check on the compressibility of gasoline. Its bulk modulus is 1.3 x 10^9 Pa. If you take the extreme case of an in-tank pump capable of 500 bar pressure and operating between 50 and 500 bar to compress the fuel between tank and engine, the density of that fuel will vary by a little over 3%. If the lines hold 1 liter that is a variation of 30cc. Remember, this is just the fuel compressing, flex in the lines is extra. and One extra cc per second is a 3% power boost.

I believe this looks like Additional ERS as you can have ERS + this additional boost

[mirafiori]

In Midst of the Weekend FIA issued a new directive which called for teams to measure the pressure at multiple points in the fuel system
FIA is asked to introduce these systems by Chinese Grand Prix Which is Round 3 of Formula 1 2015 season or earliest at Malaysian Grand Prix as each team set to contact by FIA to evaluate how Fuel Pressure is measured. This is done to closely monitor Technical regulation 5.10.5 "any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited"
Currently the fuel flow meter is inside the fuel tank and there is some distance between the fuel flow sensor and the direct fuel injectors
http://cdn.images.autosport.com/edit...1426389506.jpg
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118066

FIA is suspecting some team or some engine manufacturer is abusing the rule by having different pressures at different places to gain uneven advantage after the fuel flow meter check is done. Yet to see which team it is.

I really hope this is Mercedes and not us.

[Nand0Nand0]

It's Mercedes

[Kyss4k]

I really hope this is Mercedes and not us.

I think we can be pretty sure

[Sriharsha]

I really want to get confirmed who is the team doing this and surprisingly Sky which raised every single issue of Redbull in the past was pretty silent and i searched lot of places but no one ever got clue of this Directive

[mirafiori]

It's Mercedes

Really, I hope you are right, have you got any info my friend.

[Hornet]

I think people are just assuming it's Merc.

Personally I don't see how it's any "greener" to control the fuel flow rate, when we already have a 100kg limit. No matter how fast we use it, at the end of the day each car only have 100kg anyway. I'd rather they just remove this restriction.

[wacc]

They do have 100 Kg of fuel limit for the race, but wouldnt the cars be too fast during qualifying without the fuel flow restriction?

[mark p]

They do have 100 Kg of fuel limit for the race, but wouldnt the cars be too fast during qualifying without the fuel flow restriction?

But they want 1000hp cars getting rid of restriction for quali would do it.

I think its Honda the change is aimed at. Was it Friday or Saturday practice the FIA technical guy was in their garage with all Mclarens top guys and Ron pointing at the engine and discussing something. They used mechanics to make a human shield. No news came of it but with this develooment I think it could well be them. Sounds complex as well maybe this is a big cause of their issues as if you could get this idea working it must make a good advantage.

[Dino]

Lots of short term power increase available in the system as it is.
The longer/thicker/flexier the piping the better.[Volume!]
Reminds me of a system on the Citroen ID/DS that accumulates hydraulic pressure as reserve.

[Dino]

Cannot stop thinking about this FIA technical directive.
A siutable fuel system and piping with the right volume for fuel can be used to Qualify.
Using 110kg/h instead of 100kg/h for a flying lap will make all the difference.....80?...100?...120bhp?
Than again this directive might have come about by something the scrutineers saw on the Honda engine?

[Tony]

From Another forum (F1T)


I believe this looks like Additional ERS as you can have ERS + this additional boost

I don't understand this concept though, if you get a gain in power for a short period of time, wouldn't that still impact fuel consumption anyway so at a different point in time, you will have to coast more? or tis there some other net benefit to this other than for qualifying?

[Dino]

I don't understand this concept though, if you get a gain in power for a short period of time, wouldn't that still impact fuel consumption anyway so at a different point in time, you will have to coast more? or tis there some other net benefit to this other than for qualifying?

It will impact fuel consumption which will have to be compensated later in the race BUT will make life much easier at opening up a lead at the first couple of laps before DRS is employed!!
It will also be a huge plus if you get caught behind a slower car like Kimi behind Ricciardo or Vettel behind Felipe.
The greatest advantage in my opinion is for Qualifying because you are not forced with fuel quantity.[100kilo for race]

[Tony]

It will impact fuel consumption which will have to be compensated later in the race BUT will make life much easier at opening up a lead at the first couple of laps before DRS is employed!!
It will also be a huge plus if you get caught behind a slower car like Kimi behind Ricciardo or Vettel behind Felipe.
The greatest advantage in my opinion is for Qualifying because you are not forced with fuel quantity.[100kilo for race]

Cool! Thanks for that, much appreciated :)

[DelMar]

I think people are just assuming it's Merc.

Personally I don't see how it's any "greener" to control the fuel flow rate, when we already have a 100kg limit. No matter how fast we use it, at the end of the day each car only have 100kg anyway. I'd rather they just remove this restriction.

Absolutely not. If deliberate it is cheating....

It is one thing to have 100kg fuel limit, another thing to have a limit on the fuel rate. It is increasing the horsepower of the engine. Let's Ferrari use 1.8lt turbo with 100kg fuel then???

[Hornet]

Absolutely not. If deliberate it is cheating....

It is one thing to have 100kg fuel limit, another thing to have a limit on the fuel rate. It is increasing the horsepower of the engine. Let's Ferrari use 1.8lt turbo with 100kg fuel then???

Um, I'm not saying it should not be enforced. Of course if the regulation is there, then it should be enforced. All I'm saying is I don't see the need to have fuel flow rate regulated in the first place.

[DelMar]

Um, I'm not saying it should not be enforced. Of course if the regulation is there, then it should be enforced. All I'm saying is I don't see the need to have fuel flow rate regulated in the first place.

and I am saying that not only FIA wants to limit fuel usage per race but also the horsepower as well! Otherwise even for few laps in quali, they will design a 1100bhp peak engine instead of ~900 now.

[mark p]

It will impact fuel consumption which will have to be compensated later in the race BUT will make life much easier at opening up a lead at the first couple of laps before DRS is employed!!
It will also be a huge plus if you get caught behind a slower car like Kimi behind Ricciardo or Vettel behind Felipe.
The greatest advantage in my opinion is for Qualifying because you are not forced with fuel quantity.[100kilo for race]

They use about 97 to 98 kg for a race. Uping from 100 to 110 would allow 12 laps at extra flow before hitting limit of 100. That would be to marginal but you could run 6 laps with more or use 105 and go a little longer.

Messing with numbers Ferrari race average was 0.6 behind Merc but quali was 1.4 so 0.8 better. Ferrari were equal to Williams but in the race for the overcut pass they averaged 0.8 better than Williams. Its Merc and they gain 0.8 a lap in quali. Maybe use it to a much lesser extent over the race if at all. Joking I think it would have been seen last year only thing that changed this year is Honda arrived and with whatever was happening with all the people in the pits at the weekend I cannot help but think its them. Smells of extravagance that McLaren are often involved in often for little reward... last years suspension, octopus exhaust, u-shaped sidepods, f-duct etc

[Hornet]

and I am saying that not only FIA wants to limit fuel usage per race but also the horsepower as well! Otherwise even for few laps in quali, they will design a 1100bhp peak engine instead of ~900 now.

They do that in the past because they had special qualifying engine. Ever since engine usage has been limited, we don't really hear about these qualifying performance spike anymore as it would quickly reduce the engine lifespan.

So while teams may have a minor performance boost in qualifying, I doubt it's anything we should worry about. As far as engine performance goes, FIA have always regulated it in some capacity, and I don't recall there ever was a specific restriction meant for qualifying performance.

[Dino]

mark p
I did not mean taking on extra fuel,what i said was turning the system to deliver 110kg/h instead of 100kg/h.
''Using 110kg/h instead of 100kg/h for a flying lap will make all the difference.....80?...100?...120bhp?''

[DelMar]

They do that in the past because they had special qualifying engine. Ever since engine usage has been limited, we don't really hear about these qualifying performance spike anymore as it would quickly reduce the engine lifespan.

So while teams may have a minor performance boost in qualifying, I doubt it's anything we should worry about. As far as engine performance goes, FIA have always regulated it in some capacity, and I don't recall there ever was a specific restriction meant for qualifying performance.

There were 1300bhp 1.5lt turbo F1 engines 25-30 years ago, with the technology of those years!

V10, V8's were "normally aspired engines" not Turbo's which the manufacturer pretty much maxed out. Remove the fuel flow rule, then lets see how much these current ones can produce when they use higher boost.

Fuel limit is a total "energy limit" for race. Fuel flow limit is to constrain the power of the engines.

[Dino]

They do that in the past because they had special qualifying engine. Ever since engine usage has been limited, we don't really hear about these qualifying performance spike anymore as it would quickly reduce the engine lifespan.

So while teams may have a minor performance boost in qualifying, I doubt it's anything we should worry about. As far as engine performance goes, FIA have always regulated it in some capacity, and I don't recall there ever was a specific restriction meant for qualifying performance.

Does not seem so to me!!
Why now? FIA issues new directive to measure fuel pressure!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118066

[mark p]

mark p
I did not mean taking on extra fuel,what i said was turning the system to deliver 110kg/h instead of 100kg/h.
''Using 110kg/h instead of 100kg/h for a flying lap will make all the difference.....80?...100?...120bhp?''

Yeah I agree. I was trying to say the extra fuel burnt whilst running at 110 will still fall within 100 kg limit if ran for say 10 laps of the race. No extra fuel saving would have to be done because of it therefore giving a big boost in performance.

[Sriharsha]

If any Engine Expert here can correct this but from what i understand.
Say X team is doing this as we are unsure about which ever team is doing this until we get the confirmation
This X team is trying to make a implicit accumulator in the fuel lines by swelling with using the pressure so that they can save some amount of fuel which can be used at later point. So they are under the 100kg/hr and 100ltrs fuel usage restriction. Having that Extra fuel which stored after the Fuel flow meter is allowing that X team to have more power when needed so that they can go even faster.

For Every Extra CC available will produce 3% of Power.For every 1 ltr of fuel we get the 35cc/s under the 100kg/hr rule. If the X team is saving another 1 ltr of fuel through the fuel lines after the Fuel flow meter check and gets another 35cc/s that means they are able to get more power of around 90% - 105% than others Which can be used at once or can use through out the lap at certain points of the track so that they can explicitly get advantage in a large margin

[modza]

Under regulation 5.10.5, which states that "any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited" any team doing so should be punished actually. And if not mistaken FIA is able to look at injector pressure data and make calculations on how much fuel is used on any give time, as did RedBull last year in first round when they didn't fully trusted FIA fuel flow sensor, but later got expelled.

[Dino]

This could reshuffle the cards in a couple of races if it is real.
Some team [or 2] may suddenly lose .3/.5second per lap.
Why did the FIA come up with this now?
1....Can it be so the Team[or 2]will have allready submitted the 4 engines for homologation?
2....Did the engineers we acquired from Mercedes ''spill the beans''?

[Sriharsha]

This could reshuffle the cards in a couple of races if it is real.
Some team [or 2] may suddenly lose .3/.5second per lap.
Why did the FIA come up with this now?
1....Can it be so the Team[or 2]will have allready submitted the 4 engines for homologation?
2....Did the engineers we acquired from Mercedes ''spill the beans''?

I don't know but the regulation came out of no where its like FIA knew it from the times of testing.

[Giles4ever]

Maybe MB's code word to its drivers is save fuel :) I sure hope this directive is for MB!

[Sriharsha]

Under regulation 5.10.5, which states that "any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited" any team doing so should be punished actually. And if not mistaken FIA is able to look at injector pressure data and make calculations on how much fuel is used on any give time, as did RedBull last year in first round when they didn't fully trusted FIA fuel flow sensor, but later got expelled.

But here the Point is That team is still able to use Different Pressures Hence the Directive , So some thing is going on in the fuel line after the Fuel Pressure check and before the Injector Pressure Check.
you can see as i stated that Specific team is saving the fuel either in fuel filter or some kind of accumulator then using it again which is making them having more power.