F1 race director Charlie Whiting says protected cockpits will happen

[Hornet]

Agreed. but it is and has always been open cockpit. So I'm just saying if we are to make the cars as safe as possible, then it is logical to have an enclosed cockpit and covered wheels. Just asking.. what is F1 if you get rid of its characteristics. I'm not in favour of a closed cockpit, but an unobtrusive safety measure would be fine. I think enclosing the cockpit is like covering the wheels, it changes what F1 is.

IMO, the problem with that argument is that, if we looked at the cars from the early days during the 50, they are completely different from anything we see today. Back then it looks like a long tub with 4 wheels attached to it. And it was that way for awhile before people started realizing that the way air flows across the car has a huge impact on performance, and since then the looks of the car slowly evolved to what they are today, guided by better understanding of aero, as well as safety related regulations.

And so, the looks of the car have changed significantly, more than what we will see with enclosed cockpit, over the decades. If we were to say lets stop changing the looks now, it seem kind of arbitrary. One could ask, why now instead of 10 years ago or 50 years ago. Same goes for picking the looks of open cockpit vs say sidepod, wings, etc. Someone from the 50s could have said F1 must not have wings to remain F1-like.

Not that I'm saying its wrong for people to prefer open wheels, since it's not really crucial to enclose the wheel from a safety standpoint. But I think when it comes to cockpit, it's dangerous enough that something needs to be done.

[Nand0Nand0]

When the FIA proposed other safety changes in the past, I've never seen these kind of reaction from the fans. Yet the very idea of enclosing the cockpit suddenly made people opposed the idea of protected cockpit, to the point of claiming racing will always be dangerous so nothing should be done about it. Where we you guys when the other safety changes were introduced? What difference is a protected cockpit compared to HANS, or carbon fiber monocoque, or the banning of shaped floors, the banning of fan car, or ride height restrictions.

Apply a max speed limit of 10kph to all F1 races and I guarantee there be no more driver deaths in F1 racing. Who'd be stupid enough to line-up and say their all for that?

[aroutis]

F1 is open wheel racing, and there is no talk about enclosing wheels.

If enclosing the wheels is a step towards better security and saving the lives of drivers, surely one should be all for it , no?

[Hornet]

Apply a max speed limit of 10kph to all F1 races and I guarantee there be no more driver deaths in F1 racing. Who'd be stupid enough to line-up and say their all for that?

10kmph is not racing. No one is trying to improve safety by stopping racing. That's completely different from enclosed cockpit. Enclosing cockpit doesn't take away anything from racing. heck it doesn't even affect the excitement of a race.

[Greig]

If enclosing the wheels is a step towards better security and saving the lives of drivers, surely one should be all for it , no?

If you think so, then it would not be F1.

[Greig]

Apply a max speed limit of 10kph to all F1 races and I guarantee there be no more driver deaths in F1 racing. Who'd be stupid enough to line-up and say their all for that?

Back with this again? How about we reverse your extreme stance and take away all safety from F1? Let's have spectators, marshalls, mechanics and drivers dying that will sure make things so much more exciting.....

[Silent Bob]

If you think so, then it would not be F1.

So what would be the FIA's reaction if a tire did come apart and flew into another car and killed a driver even with the canopy? It is feasible that they may decide to enclose the wheels. I think it would be looked at the same as close cockpits are now being studied. Like aroutis said... if it's all about safety then make the cars as safe as possible... but they just may not be F1 cars anymore.

[Greig]

So what would be the FIA's reaction if a tire did come apart and flew into another car and killed a driver even with the canopy? It is feasible that they may decide to enclose the wheels. I think it would be looked at the same as close cockpits are now being studied. Like aroutis said... if it's all about safety then make the cars as safe as possible... but they just may not be F1 cars anymore.

We could go to extremes but there is no talk or need for enclosing the wheels. Wheels come off even when enclosed. The FIA has already reacted to wheels killing people that is why they are tethered and they do a pretty good job of it so it's not really a safety concern.

[Tobes]

The most recent accidents that I am aware of them:

2009- Henry surtees - Wheel hitting his head - Death
2009- Felipe Massa - Spring hitting his head - Crushing part of skull
2012- Romain Grosjean and Fernando Alonso 2012 Spa crash - Fortunately nothing Happened
2013- Lewis Hamiltons's tire blowup in front of Fernando Alonso in Silverston - Luckily nothing happened but engineers said that the debris could easily enter into Fernando Alonso's helmet like a bullet.
2014- Jules Bianchi - collided with the rear of a tractor crane - Death
2015- Kimi Raikkonen and Fernando Alonso Austria - Fortunately nothing happened
2015- Justin Wilson - part of the other car's nose hitting his head - Death

7 head related and near miss accidents in 7 years that 3 of them were fatal and the rest could be fatal easily.

By the way I have experienced a minor concussion and it took me 3 to 4 months to recover. It really hurts alot. Believe me.

I am in no way disagreeing with the need to make the sport as safe as is possible, but you can't count near misses in your 'stats', as far as head injuries that may have been lessened or avoided by some further form of head protection you can only count Surtees, Massa and Wilson, the only head related injury in F1 in the past 7 years that may possibly have been avoided by a closed cockpit or other form of head protection was Massa, that was clearly a freak accident and there is no guarantee a spring striking the cockpit wouldn't have penetrated it anyway, Bianchi suffered a diffuse axonal injury, not caused by impact but by the massive deceleration, a closed cockpit wouldn't have saved Jules, the same accident in an LMP1 car would have the same result, the only way to avoid another similar accident would be to ban any heavy machinery from being trackside of the armco and barriers, although as I have stated in a previous thread, had Jules abided by the rules of the double yellow flags I believe he'd still be here today...

For a sport that has 20 or so 850kg cars travelling at 200mph often only inches apart, I think F1 is pretty safe, motorsport is inherently dangerous, there will always be accidents and injury, that will always be the case, and I'm all for making it as safe as possible, but F1 is open cockpit, open wheel racing, not because of tradition, but because that's what the formula is, to try and make the sport 100% safe would only serve to sterilise it, and it will cease to be F1, if the drivers no longer wish to race in that formula that is their choice, if they feel they would rather race at 200mph in closed cockpit cars then go and compete in the WEC...

[Nand0Nand0]

10kmph is not racing. No one is trying to improve safety by stopping racing. That's completely different from enclosed cockpit. Enclosing cockpit doesn't take away anything from racing. heck it doesn't even affect the excitement of a race.

Blindly accepting every cockamamy idea thrown up with the hashtag safety is senseless.

Making the cars 2 meters wider or longer, filling cars with padding, halving horsepower, stopping every 5 laps for compulsory tire checks, having solid tires all of those can add safety and still allow racing and they are all just as stupid as this idea IMO.

[Nand0Nand0]

Back with this again?

Yeah, facts and logic can be irritating sometimes

How about we reverse your extreme stance and take away all safety from F1? Let's have spectators, marshalls, mechanics and drivers dying that will sure make things so much more exciting.....

I don't flock to support every wacky unspecified idea thrown up with a #safety, that doesn't mean I don't support sensible existing safety rules - that's a pretty disingenuous comment really.

[Greig]

Yeah, facts and logic can be irritating sometimes


I don't flock to support every wacky unspecified idea thrown up with a #safety, that doesn't mean I don't support sensible existing safety rules - that's a pretty disingenuous comment really.

It's not a fact or logic at all. It's pretty clear the last remaining major safety issue in the sport is protecting the drivers head so I am not sure why you consider it wacky but you are offering nothing really to the topic other than childish retorts.

[Hornet]

Blindly accepting every cockamamy idea thrown up with the hashtag safety is senseless.

Making the cars 2 meters wider or longer, filling cars with padding, halving horsepower, stopping every 5 laps for compulsory tire checks, having solid tires all of those can add safety and still allow racing and they are all just as stupid as this idea IMO.

It's not called blindly accepting anything. The risk is real, it's a matter of fact that open cockpit is a safety weakness and there are ways to mitigate the danger. There's nothing blind about addressing a real problem.

If you have any compelling reason to not protect the cockpit, go ahead and propose them. The problem is, you are not actually giving any compelling reason, instead you argue around rhetoric that doesn't even directly address the pros and cons of a protected cockpit. I can only assume because you too actually realize how ridiculous it is to say that we must stubbornly stick to open cockpit and disregard safety, just for the sake of having open cockpit.

[Nand0Nand0]

It's not called blindly accepting anything. The risk is real, it's a matter of fact that open cockpit is a safety weakness and there are ways to mitigate the danger. There's nothing blind about addressing a real problem.

If you have any compelling reason to not protect the cockpit, go ahead and propose them. The problem is, you are not actually giving any compelling reason, instead you argue around rhetoric that doesn't even directly address the pros and cons of a protected cockpit. I can only assume because you too actually realize how ridiculous it is to say that we must stubbornly stick to open cockpit and disregard safety, just for the sake of having open cockpit.

You are blindly accepting that there is a substantive problem that entombing the driver will somehow improve and not have a negative impact. What's more you have no idea exactly what you are accepting.

"Safety safety some-sort-of-driver-encasement safety safety" - IMO that's lemming-driven logic

[Greig]

You are blindly accepting that there is a substantive problem that entombing the driver will somehow improve and not have a negative impact. What's more you have no idea exactly what you are accepting.

"Safety safety some-sort-of-driver-encasement safety safety" - IMO that's lemming-driven logic

And you have no idea what you are opposing......

[iwatore]

In my opinion F1 always has been with the cockpits like that, it is part of the risk, F1 has been always risky.
If they continue like that, we will soon watch races of something which it will not be F1. Covering the cockpit will take a lot of fans out of the F1 cause it will no longer be F1....

[FerrariSteve]

In my opinion F1 always has been with the cockpits like that, it is part of the risk, F1 has been always risky.
If they continue like that, we will soon watch races of something which it will not be F1. Covering the cockpit will take a lot of fans out of the F1 cause it will no longer be F1....

Agreed.

[Rob]

I am in no way disagreeing with the need to make the sport as safe as is possible, but you can't count near misses in your 'stats', as far as head injuries that may have been lessened or avoided by some further form of head protection you can only count Surtees, Massa and Wilson, the only head related injury in F1 in the past 7 years that may possibly have been avoided by a closed cockpit or other form of head protection was Massa, that was clearly a freak accident and there is no guarantee a spring striking the cockpit wouldn't have penetrated it anyway, Bianchi suffered a diffuse axonal injury, not caused by impact but by the massive deceleration, a closed cockpit wouldn't have saved Jules, the same accident in an LMP1 car would have the same result, the only way to avoid another similar accident would be to ban any heavy machinery from being trackside of the armco and barriers, although as I have stated in a previous thread, had Jules abided by the rules of the double yellow flags I believe he'd still be here today...

For a sport that has 20 or so 850kg cars travelling at 200mph often only inches apart, I think F1 is pretty safe, motorsport is inherently dangerous, there will always be accidents and injury, that will always be the case, and I'm all for making it as safe as possible, but F1 is open cockpit, open wheel racing, not because of tradition, but because that's what the formula is, to try and make the sport 100% safe would only serve to sterilise it, and it will cease to be F1, if the drivers no longer wish to race in that formula that is their choice, if they feel they would rather race at 200mph in closed cockpit cars then go and compete in the WEC...

as ever mate, well said.

[Nand0Nand0]

And you have no idea what you are opposing......

Exactly, but you feel free to continue raving about the Emporer's wonderful new clothes

[Hornet]

You are blindly accepting that there is a substantive problem that entombing the driver will somehow improve and not have a negative impact. What's more you have no idea exactly what you are accepting.

"Safety safety some-sort-of-driver-encasement safety safety" - IMO that's lemming-driven logic

The danger of open cockpit is real, we've seen the evidence. The laws of physics doesn't care what you or I accept.

But I'm not really sure what's your point anymore. It's clear that you are opposing cockpit safety without any good reason, as you've yet to give any. Instead, you're being nonsensical at this point.

[AfterLife]

Here is a lovely article by Allan McNish. A perfect one.

Motorsport must find a way to protect drivers

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34065061

[iwatore]

Thanks for the article mate.
The Mercedes' design is ugly as hell and it is on the center of the pilot's vision... I don't think it will get through and I don't hose so...

Here is a lovely article by Allan McNish. A perfect one.

Motorsport must find a way to protect drivers

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34065061

[mirafiori]

Open cockpit closed cockpit, like this like that, this design that design, did Jules die because of all this safety rubbish we are talking about, NO, why don't people talk about the FIA allowing cars to race in conditions that was in fading daylight because of greed. Also the failings of Charlie Whiting to allow the race to continue in those horrendous Conditions, I remember Button pleading over the radio to stop the race saying it's the worst he has ever known. We all want safety but I also like to talk about the truth.

[iwatore]

I agree with you.
And why they use those tracks to tow the cars which clearly are not fit for Formula 1? They are too high so the car might get underneath exactly how Jules' did....

Open cockpit closed cockpit, like this like that, this design that design, did Jules die because of all this safety rubbish we are talking about, NO, why don't people talk about the FIA allowing cars to race in conditions that was in fading daylight because of greed. Also the failings of Charlie Whiting to allow the race to continue in those horrendous Conditions, I remember Button pleading over the radio to stop the race saying it's the worst he has ever known. We all want safety but I also like to talk about the truth.

[Hornet]

Open cockpit closed cockpit, like this like that, this design that design, did Jules die because of all this safety rubbish we are talking about, NO, why don't people talk about the FIA allowing cars to race in conditions that was in fading daylight because of greed. Also the failings of Charlie Whiting to allow the race to continue in those horrendous Conditions, I remember Button pleading over the radio to stop the race saying it's the worst he has ever known. We all want safety but I also like to talk about the truth.

Closed cockpit is not a reaction to Bianchi's accident specifically, it came up (again) after the fatal incident in IndyCar. Although be fair, the sport did react to the Japan incident by introducing virtual safety car, which is a way of slowing everyone down during double yellow. So the FIA certainly did not ignored Bianchi's accident and do nothing.

[abbottcostello]

Just had a short segment on NBC's coverage of FP2 regarding cockpit safety with brief comments from Massa, Vettel, & Button. All of them were in favor of measures to decrease risk, even if it means closed cockpit.
These guys are the ones taking all the risk, I respect their skill, knowledge & willingness to take the risks. If they can accept change, even if it means closed cockpit, then so can I! Might be a visual shock at first but I'll get over it.

[Rob]

I agree with you.
And why they use those tracks to tow the cars which clearly are not fit for Formula 1? They are too high so the car might get underneath exactly how Jules' did....

A closed cockpit would not of saved Jules.

[Rob]

Open cockpit closed cockpit, like this like that, this design that design, did Jules die because of all this safety rubbish we are talking about, NO, why don't people talk about the FIA allowing cars to race in conditions that was in fading daylight because of greed. Also the failings of Charlie Whiting to allow the race to continue in those horrendous Conditions, I remember Button pleading over the radio to stop the race saying it's the worst he has ever known. We all want safety but I also like to talk about the truth.

Can not blame Charlie. Reason we have these races at those times is for us Europeans to get up and watch the races at a decent time in the morning. It was an idea as they thought would attract more viewers, they as in FIA and Bernie. I had no problems getting up at 2am to watch races. Those were the days.

[mirafiori]

Can not blame Charlie. Reason we have these races at those times is for us Europeans to get up and watch the races at a decent time in the morning. It was an idea as they thought would attract more viewers, they as in FIA and Bernie. I had no problems getting up at 2am to watch races. Those were the days.

Sorry Rob I do blame Charlie and Bernie and all concerned at the FIA, the thing is even after what happened with Jules we still have races on the calander where the race start is to late in the day with the threat of fading light, the reason for this is greed. Charlie's main job is to watch over the race for all different reasons but his main job would be the safety for all the personnel and I think he should stand up to all the politics involved and make sure the races all start at a time which gives the bigger window of safety.

[Greig]

Sorry Rob I do blame Charlie and Bernie and all concerned at the FIA, the thing is even after what happened with Jules we still have races on the calander where the race start is to late in the day with the threat of fading light, the reason for this is greed. Charlie's main job is to watch over the race for all different reasons but his main job would be the safety for all the personnel and I think he should stand up to all the politics involved and make sure the races all start at a time which gives the bigger window of safety.

I am not sure the time of day played any part in the accident.