Mercedes advantage not PU or aero, its slow corners and mechanical grip

[f300v10]

So the stand out take away from the Russian GP for me is that Mercedes is still so superior to all the other chassis on low speed corners and mechanical grip. Looking at the sector times in both qualifying and the race, Mercedes dominated sector 3, which is the slowest, consisting of 6 low speed 90 degree corners. It is the shortest sector both in distance and time, yet Mercedes had double the time advantage over Ferrari (4 to 5 tenths vs. 2 tenths in S1 and S2) in sector 3. PU performance and aero downforce contribute very little performance at the speeds involved in S3, so the entire advantage is down to suspension/mechanical grip. Until Ferrari (and everyone else) figure out what Merc are doing to pull this off it will be very hard to beat them. I have heard Mercedes are using hydraulics to link the left and right suspension rather than a mechanical anti roll bar. I'm sure that Ferrari are well aware that Merc is killing them in the slow speed stuff and hopefully they can find the answer(s) soon.

[phsyklone]

The Traction of the Mercs is just insane, they can get on the power very fast compared to other guys. Ferrari has been struggling with traction for the past few years but this season was a step up from Ferrari but Merc is on another planet. Its no use Ferrari concentrating on getting more power from the PU and increasing reliability if they are having trouble putting it on to the asphalt. They should just copy Mercs hydraulics suspension and allow us to win some races

[WS6TransAm01]

Yes, traction is a key, but if they don't have power, putting it down wont make you faster. Its the fact that they have a ton of power, AND they can put it down that makes them fast out of a slow corner. Also, having more power, they can run more downforce, increasing traction as well. Yes, not as much as in fast corners, but it helps.

[wisepie]

Interesting to read this as we tend to assume it's an engine/aero problem that prevents us from challenging Merc full on. It may be track specific for Merc to be able to exploit their solution to such a degree, but is it all totally legal and why hasn't any other team tried it?

[KimiBot]

I have heard Mercedes are using hydraulics to link the left and right suspension rather than a mechanical anti roll bar.

Similar to this? Citroen xantia vs Porsche 911

[MAD_Junior]

The PU can have a good deal of impact on mechanical grip. If you're getting 50 more BHP from your PU, you can run more wing, thus more downforce, thus more grip. Even in slower corners this matters, some would say even more.

[darkchild]

Thing is, they dont run more wing at all.

[Nova]

Traction control...

[From Treviso]

Who knows - Ferrari may continue being the bridesmaid for the rest of the year or they'll get all their settings right and just click from then on. Remember, track temps have been in favour of the silver team.

[FF1]

A quick question. What does it mean that merc turn up their engine in qualifying. What actually happens and how do they do it? Is it a particular part or what? If someone could please explain

[WS6TransAm01]

A quick question. What does it mean that merc turn up their engine in qualifying. What actually happens and how do they do it? Is it a particular part or what? If someone could please explain

It's the engine tuning. The electronic program in the ECU which tells the engine the injector pulse width and ignition advance. Run more advance in the timing and a longer pulse width, if you have the incoming air to support it (increase boost pressure on the turbo via the boost controller) you make more power but use a little bit more fuel and increase the engine temps.

Retard the timing and decrease the injector pulse width, reduce the amount of air coming in to maintain safe AFR and u make less power and use less fuel.

[TigerKing]

If i remember correctly, Force India were superior on low speed traction events in 2014/2015. That's why they did so well in Tilkedromes because of the long straights and slow speed sections on them. Force India also barely has any aero development so considering that, they did extremely well. We tend to do better in those types of circuits since the new era as well (Hungary both years, Singapore both years, Monaco 2014 before Kimi retired etc).

[phsyklone]

It could be said that our PU is on par with Mercs even if we are not running it at full power. The speed traps do suggest parity our main issue right now is reliability and mechanical grip. It is also suprising we struggled in Sochi with grip where as in china our traction was so good the commentators couldnt shut up about it and the onboards showed our car to be more drivable than it was in Sochi. Problem with Ferrari is our car works best on certain tracks and that is not good as the Mercs are insanely fast on almost all the tracks. JA and his team need to upgrade something so we stand a fighting chance.

[Nand0Nand0]

I think this is a good observation but I don't necessarily put the reason down to actual superior mechanical grip. I think it is their combination of turbo feeding the hybrid feeding the power out which is giving them their excellent performance in this area.

[The Architect]

I'd agree that the most significant take away from the race is that Mercedes are so far ahead in terms of their chassis. I'd disagree that they're the class of the field though; if Red Bull had a 2016 Ferrari engine, I'm confident they would be ahead of Mercedes. Given the new engine rules and particularly clauses around development and convergence, there's not much reason to be optimistic about for the rest of this season or even next season.

[Alfa159]

I'd agree that the most significant take away from the race is that Mercedes are so far ahead in terms of their chassis. I'd disagree that they're the class of the field though; if Red Bull had a 2016 Ferrari engine, I'm confident they would be ahead of Mercedes. Given the new engine rules and particularly clauses around development and convergence, there's not much reason to be optimistic about for the rest of this season or even next season.

They're obviously the class of the field, look at the results! Red Bull don't have a 2016 Ferrari engine so this point is pure speculation!

[FerrariF60]

It could be said that our PU is on par with Mercs even if we are not running it at full power. The speed traps do suggest parity our main issue right now is reliability and mechanical grip. It is also suprising we struggled in Sochi with grip where as in china our traction was so good the commentators couldnt shut up about it and the onboards showed our car to be more drivable than it was in Sochi. Problem with Ferrari is our car works best on certain tracks and that is not good as the Mercs are insanely fast on almost all the tracks. JA and his team need to upgrade something so we stand a fighting chance.

temperature i think was the issue for us in Sochi....it was much cooler then in China and we seem to have a harder time bringing the tires up to temperature, something we've had for since 2009

that is why kimi lost the place at the restart after the safety car came in and also part taht he was caught napping didn't help....LOL

[f300v10]

The PU can have a good deal of impact on mechanical grip. If you're getting 50 more BHP from your PU, you can run more wing, thus more downforce, thus more grip. Even in slower corners this matters, some would say even more.

Merc is not running more wing, and at the speed in slow corners of sector three it would make VERY little difference if they did. Remember that aero load is a function of velocity^^2. Under 100 kph no amount of wing will generate a sizable aero load in F1 terms. Their big advantage is mechanical grip.

[f300v10]

I'd agree that the most significant take away from the race is that Mercedes are so far ahead in terms of their chassis. I'd disagree that they're the class of the field though; if Red Bull had a 2016 Ferrari engine, I'm confident they would be ahead of Mercedes. Given the new engine rules and particularly clauses around development and convergence, there's not much reason to be optimistic about for the rest of this season or even next season.

The sector data does not back this up. RedBull were behind Vettel in S3, and lost 0.4 in S3 alone to Rosberg. That is not down to PU performance, its pure chassis. Merc doesn't just have the edge on Ferrari in mechanical grip, they are by far the best on the grid.

Qualifying S3 times:
6 N. ROSBERG 28.367
2 44 L. HAMILTON 28.684
3 5 S. VETTEL 28.749
4 3 D. RICCIARDO 28.774
5 7 K. RAIKKONEN 28.849
6 77 V. BOTTAS 28.877
7 26 D. KVYAT 28.882
8 14 F. ALONSO 29.062
9 19 F. MASSA 29.072
10 11 S. PEREZ 29.105

[GrndLkNatv]

Is it only traction, or is turbo lag also playing a part here, not getting on the power early like the Mercs?

Interesting to read this as we tend to assume it's an engine/aero problem that prevents us from challenging Merc full on. It may be track specific for Merc to be able to exploit their solution to such a degree, but is it all totally legal and why hasn't any other team tried it?

[abbottcostello]

I think you're right on this, I sure hope they can get the turbo issues fixed, Everything I've heard over the years is that getting them spot on can be tricky sometimes, often more of a journey than a short trip!
Let's not forget, Sochi hasn't been good to us. I hate to fall back on the "Sochi is a one-off", but it is very different as far as surface friction is concerned.

Is it only traction, or is turbo lag also playing a part here, not getting on the power early like the Mercs?

[Brembo]

Ferrari needs to fix the turbo issue, traction and whatever else it takes to get Seb on pole. He will do the rest once out front away from the harmfull effects of the drivers who are prone to hit Ferraris. Last year the fans said this year , well it's here ! Do I have to call Briatore to come rescue Ferrari doing anything it takes ?

[abbottcostello]

Not sure I'm ready for that!

[f300v10]

AMUS confirming Mercedes low speed advantage in Sochi. 1/3 of the total gap in just 2 low speed corners:

"Vettel lost in the curves 13 and 14 alone 0.25 seconds to Rosberg. Especially in slow and medium speed passages make the Mercedes floor well. This is due to the better traction, on the less sensitive aerodynamics in terms of load changes and the roles of the car through the corners. Only in the fast corners Ferrari is on the ball. Therefore, the red cars in Barcelona are the great rivals also be nearer turn again."