Tuscan GP 2020 Race Thread

[ferrari1.8t]

I really don't understand this either. It basically guaranteed this year and probably next year as a complete write-off.

They could surely have cited the closure of the factory due to COVID which severely effected their car development, as a reason not to go with the development freezing rules.

I feel the same way. What made them accept freezing the regulations? They knew the engine would be bad because the settlement last year with the FIA. They had to have known it would affect the chassis and aero, so why accept and sign? Why be content with being a back marker for 2 years? It affects moral, sponsorship, money, everything....Something else must be going on. It cant just be "Binotto is soft".

[paolo lalli]

Apperars that Binotto is an arrogant engineer this is typical having worked with engineers in my life there sheer arrogance can fill a room they always know best.Looks like seb got it right.He will be a huge asset to Aston Martin Mean while ferrari still have much incompetence on the payroll.

[ntukza]

I feel the same way. What made them accept freezing the regulations? They knew the engine would be bad because the settlement last year with the FIA. They had to have known it would affect the chassis and aero, so why accept and sign? Why be content with being a back marker for 2 years? It affects moral, sponsorship, money, everything....Something else must be going on. It cant just be "Binotto is soft".

Something else like what though?

[Warp]

I feel the same way. What made them accept freezing the regulations? They knew the engine would be bad because the settlement last year with the FIA. They had to have known it would affect the chassis and aero, so why accept and sign? Why be content with being a back marker for 2 years? It affects moral, sponsorship, money, everything....Something else must be going on. It cant just be "Binotto is soft".

Something else like what though?

Binotto was really confident every manufacturer was going to be slower because of the TDs... He really believes everyone got affected by that (lol).

[vcs316]

Ferrari slowest car in Mugello

If it were Alonso in our car, we would for sure be hearing "GP2 engine, GP2 engine"

Its a disastrous year for us, hopefully next year is a bit better and we can atleast fight for podiums!

[WS6TransAm01]

I'm sure glad the FIA banned party modes... sure did change Ferrari's competitiveness, right!? Oh wait...

I feel the same way. What made them accept freezing the regulations? They knew the engine would be bad because the settlement last year with the FIA. They had to have known it would affect the chassis and aero, so why accept and sign? Why be content with being a back marker for 2 years? It affects moral, sponsorship, money, everything....Something else must be going on. It cant just be "Binotto is soft".

I believe it is really just that simple. I doubt he did it to purposefully hurt Ferrari. I don't think he is trying to sabotage them from within. I think he is just that inept and spinless.

Binotto was really confident every manufacturer was going to be slower because of the TDs... He really believes everyone got affected by that (lol).

Then he is a terrible engineer.

Pick one, either way he doesn't deserve his current position.

[Hornet]

I really don't understand this either. It basically guaranteed this year and probably next year as a complete write-off.

They could surely have cited the closure of the factory due to COVID which severely effected their car development, as a reason not to go with the development freezing rules.

When Ferrari lost their engine advantage, there was no way we'll ever going to recoup the performance lost anyway.
Merc is a good position to dominate both 2020 and 2021. They are not going to spend all their resource on these 2 seasons, when there is a huge reset looming in 2022.
And so, neither should we.

Ferrari have to focus on the new 2022 regulations now. If we get it wrong, the consequence will be worse than having 2 bad seasons now.

I don't think anyone is seriously thinking of beating Merc this year anyway, as they shift their focus to the new regulations. The pandemic just make it 2 "throw-away" seasons instead of 1.

[Greig]

I feel the same way. What made them accept freezing the regulations? They knew the engine would be bad because the settlement last year with the FIA. They had to have known it would affect the chassis and aero, so why accept and sign? Why be content with being a back marker for 2 years? It affects moral, sponsorship, money, everything....Something else must be going on. It cant just be "Binotto is soft".

Would probably hurt sponsors and money more if the FIA announced us as cheats......

[ntukza]

When Ferrari lost their engine advantage, there was no way we'll ever going to recoup the performance lost anyway.
Merc is a good position to dominate both 2020 and 2021. They are not going to spend all their resource on these 2 seasons, when there is a huge reset looming in 2022.
And so, neither should we.

Ferrari have to focus on the new 2022 regulations now. If we get it wrong, the consequence will be worse than having 2 bad seasons now.

I don't think anyone is seriously thinking of beating Merc this year anyway, as they shift their focus to the new regulations. The pandemic just make it 2 "throw-away" seasons instead of 1.

It sounds like the FIA thought they were doing a sensible thing to postpone the rules overhaul to 2022 and freeze development for 2021, only it has turned out to be a terrible thing for the sport.

[ntukza]

Binotto was really confident every manufacturer was going to be slower because of the TDs... He really believes everyone got affected by that (lol).

He must have been under the assumption that all engines were operating with similar loopholes like us, only to find out that actually they're not. But then the question is, why was he so misinformed?

[ntukza]

I'm sure glad the FIA banned party modes... sure did change Ferrari's competitiveness, right!? Oh wait...



I believe it is really just that simple. I doubt he did it to purposefully hurt Ferrari. I don't think he is trying to sabotage them from within. I think he is just that inept and spinless.



Then he is a terrible engineer.

Pick one, either way he doesn't deserve his current position.

If the engine saga hadn't occurred and everything went as Ferrari had invisaged, would you still be calling Binotto inept and a terrible engineer? I actually think it's unfair to judge his competence on the engine fiasco alone. How does he fare on everything else?

[ntukza]

*Sebastian Vettel critisized the use of multiple standing starts in the Tuscan GP*

I quite agree with him. Once the race has started, it has started. All restarts thereafter should be rolling. It's unfair enough that the gaps developed until then all disappear - no need to totally nullify on-track advantages.

[ferrari1.8t]

Would probably hurt sponsors and money more if the FIA announced us as cheats......

Agreed. Yet, I still believe running at the back of the pack for 2 years will definitely effect Ferrari's brand.

[JPZ]

Agreed. Yet, I still believe running at the back of the pack for 2 years will definitely effect Ferrari's brand.

And it will probably reduce F1 viewers.

Wouldn't have been as bad if there was some competition from another team such as Red Bull.

But no there's no real competition in the front and the most popular team is not competitive either.

[Greig]

Agreed. Yet, I still believe running at the back of the pack for 2 years will definitely effect Ferrari's brand.

Probably not as much as being classed as cheats though?

[Silent Bob]

Then again maybe Ferrari has gotten something for themselves in the new rules for 2022 or even in the new Concorde agreement. FIA had to close loopholes Ferrari were using even if they couldn't prove Ferrari were cheating. If Ferrari agreed to tokens and development freeze, maybe they had a trade off that favoured them somehow. Hard to believe they would agree to hurt their chances so badly if there wasn't something in it for them. Maybe they figure the new rules will benefit them and they squeezed the FIA for some changes and just need to plug along until 2022.
Binotto has gotten FIA to close 'party mode' and also to check on battery/ers systems. This means teams need to rethink their PU's as well for next year, and might hurt their development. Maybe Ferrari's new engine has already taken this into consideration and will be a beast. Maybe Binotto and company are playing harder than we know behind the scenes.... maybe not for this year, but maybe setting up for next year and beyond.
Now there's talk of Mercs getting sold. Maybe time will be good for Ferrari to become dominant again.

[ferrari1.8t]

Probably not as much as being classed as cheats though?

No one even remembers about McLaren spy-gate. They paid their fine and the F1 world moved on. Things pass in time, Ferrari haters will always be haters no matter what. Everyone thinks we cheated anyway, so we already have a bad name and look like amateurs at the same time. All that, plus guaranteed 2 years of trash, it’s horrible for the tifosi and share holders.

It’s not just the acceptance of the rule freeze, they give up on everything these days. No push back with our engine issue, no attempt at clearing our name, no push on Mercedes DAS/oil burning, backed out of the Racing Points appeal, agreed to the regulation freeze, agreed to the cost cutting...am I missing anything? Looks like Ferrari is in the business of making sure it’s competition propers and wins.

[ferrari1.8t]

Then again maybe Ferrari has gotten something for themselves in the new rules for 2022 or even in the new Concorde agreement. FIA had to close loopholes Ferrari were using even if they couldn't prove Ferrari were cheating. If Ferrari agreed to tokens and development freeze, maybe they had a trade off that favoured them somehow. Hard to believe they would agree to hurt their chances so badly if there wasn't something in it for them. Maybe they figure the new rules will benefit them and they squeezed the FIA for some changes and just need to plug along until 2022.
Binotto has gotten FIA to close 'party mode' and also to check on battery/ers systems. This means teams need to rethink their PU's as well for next year, and might hurt their development. Maybe Ferrari's new engine has already taken this into consideration and will be a beast. Maybe Binotto and company are playing harder than we know behind the scenes.... maybe not for this year, but maybe setting up for next year and beyond.
Now there's talk of Mercs getting sold. Maybe time will be good for Ferrari to become dominant again.

I’ve thought the same, but that’s a whole lot of maybes. Do you/we really believe that Ferrari was able to strike a deal to get ahead of the next regulations like Merc did with the turbo era? I’d like to believe it, but it’s hard to. Especially with all the concessions they have been making lately. I hope so, but I won’t hold my breath.

[stefa]

No one even remembers about McLaren spy-gate. They paid their fine and the F1 world moved on. Things pass in time, Ferrari haters will always be haters no matter what. Everyone thinks we cheated anyway, so we already have a bad name and look like amateurs at the same time. All that, plus guaranteed 2 years of trash, it’s horrible for the tifosi and share holders.

It’s not just the acceptance of the rule freeze, they give up on everything these days. No push back with our engine issue, no attempt at clearing our name, no push on Mercedes DAS/oil burning, backed out of the Racing Points appeal, agreed to the regulation freeze, agreed to the cost cutting...am I missing anything? Looks like Ferrari is in the business of making sure it’s competition propers and wins.

I was just thinking the same...

[PURE PASSION]

No one even remembers about McLaren spy-gate. They paid their fine and the F1 world moved on. Things pass in time, Ferrari haters will always be haters no matter what. Everyone thinks we cheated anyway, so we already have a bad name and look like amateurs at the same time. All that, plus guaranteed 2 years of trash, it’s horrible for the tifosi and share holders.

It’s not just the acceptance of the rule freeze, they give up on everything these days. No push back with our engine issue, no attempt at clearing our name, no push on Mercedes DAS/oil burning, backed out of the Racing Points appeal, agreed to the regulation freeze, agreed to the cost cutting...am I missing anything? Looks like Ferrari is in the business of making sure it’s competition propers and wins.

This is the worst thing!!! now they all laugh at as with our performance + they are saying that this drop of performance is the undisputed proof that we where cheating last year !!!
So yes im afraid Binotto didnt do anything to protect the team

[stefa]

Then again maybe Ferrari has gotten something for themselves in the new rules for 2022 or even in the new Concorde agreement. FIA had to close loopholes Ferrari were using even if they couldn't prove Ferrari were cheating. If Ferrari agreed to tokens and development freeze, maybe they had a trade off that favoured them somehow. Hard to believe they would agree to hurt their chances so badly if there wasn't something in it for them. Maybe they figure the new rules will benefit them and they squeezed the FIA for some changes and just need to plug along until 2022.
Binotto has gotten FIA to close 'party mode' and also to check on battery/ers systems. This means teams need to rethink their PU's as well for next year, and might hurt their development. Maybe Ferrari's new engine has already taken this into consideration and will be a beast. Maybe Binotto and company are playing harder than we know behind the scenes.... maybe not for this year, but maybe setting up for next year and beyond.
Now there's talk of Mercs getting sold. Maybe time will be good for Ferrari to become dominant again.

Even if Ferrari gotten something for them in 2022, it's just proves how FIA is corrupted. It is almost like church. You make something bad, go to church pay something, and all your sins are washed away! Great!
How ever you look at it, it is bad. Ferrari was doing something not by the book, FIA told them to stop, and they agree on something, and now we are all speculate that Ferrari got something for them self's in 2022, which is by my views on right and wrong, also wrong! Any way it is for sure there will be two more years of pain and suffering...

[WS6TransAm01]

If the engine saga hadn't occurred and everything went as Ferrari had invisaged, would you still be calling Binotto inept and a terrible engineer? I actually think it's unfair to judge his competence on the engine fiasco alone. How does he fare on everything else?

If you read what I wrote, he is EITHER an inept leader or a terrible engineer, I don't think he needs to be both.

- If he knew that the engine, following the FIA crackdown, was going to be a dog and still agreed to the engine development freeze he is a terrible leader.
- If he thought that despite the FIA crackdown the Ferrari engine would still be on par or better than their competitors he is a terrible engineer.

I don't think it's both, I think it's either or. My gut tells me its the former, not the latter. I think he may very well be an excellent engineer, but engineering prowess does not always translate into quality leadership, which is why I feel he is the wrong man for the job.

Also, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the problem with the car's pace is not only the engine, we can see this when Alfa beats Ferrari with the same powerplant. It's chassis, aero, strategy etc, not just engine. Even if the engine saga had not occurred, the car and team is still lacking in other aspects. Last year Ferrari had the most powerful engine, right? Yet they were still no match for Merc at the end.

[JPZ]

Is Ferrari quite unique in having an engineer, someone from the technical department, as Team Principal?

[WS6TransAm01]

Is Ferrari quite unique in having an engineer, someone from the technical department, as Team Principal?

Best that I can tell:

Toto went to the Vienna University of Economics and Business, so not an engineer.
Christian doesn't seem to have gone to college, so not an engineer either.
Andeas is a mechanical engineer
Cyril was educated as an engineer but started in F1 as a business development manager
Clair had a degree in politics - no idea on Simon Roberts but he was Operations Director and then COO at McLaren so it's doubtful he was an engineer but he could be.
Otmar is an electrical engineer
Franz studied "Sport Science and Management" not sure what that is, but okay.
Frederic is an aeronautics engineer
Guenther studied engineering bu never finished and went into the military, so I would rate that as not an engineer.

Frank Williams wasn't an engineer, but Ron Dennis was. Todt went to the school of Economics and Business in Paris and we all know how Ferrari did under his watch.

Mixed bag. As I said, sometimes it doesn't translate, sometimes it does. The more successful current teams don't seem to have engineers as TPs so who knows. As someone who works with engineers and is in the greater engineering profession I see both types. Some who are brilliant engineers but spend their entire careers on the design side of the house while others transition from design to management. What I can tell you is that taking someone who is on the design side, and making them a manager can be disastrous. I fear that this is what is leading Ferrari down the dark road they are on.

[Greig]

No one even remembers about McLaren spy-gate. They paid their fine and the F1 world moved on.

McLaren are not global like Ferrari though.

[Greig]

If you read what I wrote, he is EITHER an inept leader or a terrible engineer, I don't think he needs to be both.

- If he knew that the engine, following the FIA crackdown, was going to be a dog and still agreed to the engine development freeze he is a terrible leader.
- If he thought that despite the FIA crackdown the Ferrari engine would still be on par or better than their competitors he is a terrible engineer.

You think he makes all these decisions himself? He runs the F1 team not Ferrari and is not the President...how you can actually try and claim he is a terrible engineer is actually laughable, all his time at Ferrari from the Schumacher days but yeah he is terrible because your on a hissy rant....maybe the fact he is now not engineering in his new role says something about our downturn?? yeah but he is terrible cause you are blinded by your desire to attack him.

[Silent Bob]

Binotto has been in Ferrari and F1 for many years. Not in this role but in many others. Everyone needs time to adjust, TP's aren't just made overnight and companies like Ferrari aren't turned around in a day. It's decisions that are made now that will decide our future. Seems like everyone expects the car to magically become a winner at every new venue. How do we know Binotto hasn't made decisions now or gotten deals from the FIA that will help secure our future? I'm pretty sure all levels of management are involved at this stage. They've restructured all the divisions and they're looking for new talent. Why would they start firing people at the start of a turn around?

[WS6TransAm01]

You think he makes all these decisions himself? He runs the F1 team not Ferrari and is not the President...how you can actually try and claim he is a terrible engineer is actually laughable, all his time at Ferrari from the Schumacher days but yeah he is terrible because your on a hissy rant....maybe the fact he is now not engineering in his new role says something about our downturn?? yeah but he is terrible cause you are blinded by your desire to attack him.

I’m sure you’ll ban me again for proving you wrong yet another time but your reading comprehension is atrocious.

I said an if-then statement. Follow along. I actually said I don’t think he is a terrible engineer, just a terrible leader. You really are bad at this.

The buck stops at his desk as the leader, dude. He may not be Ferrari SpA president but he in charge of the F1 team is he not? Ultimately success or failure is on him. Right now, he is failing miserably.

Keep trying though. It’s funny to watch.

[Greig]

I’m sure you’ll ban me again for proving you wrong yet another time but your reading comprehension is atrocious.

I said an if-then statement. Follow along. I actually said I don’t think he is a terrible engineer, just a terrible leader. You really are bad at this.

The buck stops at his desk as the leader, dude. He may not be Ferrari SpA president but he in charge of the F1 team is he not? Ultimately success or failure is on him. Right now, he is failing miserably.

Keep trying though. It’s funny to watch.

You are the one failing miserably to place all the blame on one person. Do you actually think he makes every decision that affects the F1 team and it was him alone that agreed to the engine freeze?

[ntukza]

Binotto has been in Ferrari and F1 for many years. Not in this role but in many others. Everyone needs time to adjust, TP's aren't just made overnight and companies like Ferrari aren't turned around in a day. It's decisions that are made now that will decide our future. Seems like everyone expects the car to magically become a winner at every new venue. How do we know Binotto hasn't made decisions now or gotten deals from the FIA that will help secure our future? I'm pretty sure all levels of management are involved at this stage. They've restructured all the divisions and they're looking for new talent. Why would they start firing people at the start of a turn around?

What makes me partly believe this is that not so long ago there were claims that Ferrari were considering replacing him and already had his replacement lined up, yet all of that went away swiftly and there seems to be a renewed commitment to Binotto. Perhaps there's something positive that they know that we don't. I certainly hope so.