Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio De Portugal 2020 - RACE

[ntukza]

You cannot compare era's, rules and regulations. Prost, Senna, Schumacher were era's where there was an even playing field. Even Seb's era, V-8 with KERS, had engine freezes but it was still even......Merc was'nt winning and niether was Ferrari in the V-8 with KERS era.

Also, during the Schumacher era of winning, the FIA made rules from 2000 thru 2005 to slow Ferrari down.

Fast forward to the turbo hybrid formula, a formula that Mercedes has been working on since 2007...7 years ahead of 2014. Mercedes were adament on the formula in 2012. Throw in the token system and engine freezes and you have the recipe for Mercedes dominance. So of course the rule applies "you don't become a legend without a dominant car" in this turbo hybrid era given the rules and regulations.

It's no different than running a 10k race, where you (Mercedes) train for 7yrs and the rest only train for 2 to 5yrs......who's gonna win come race day???
The one who trains the longest.

Lol looks like you're the one comparing eras mate.
Nowhere did I compare eras. I stated a fact that remains true in every single era, which is that a driver cannot become a legend without a dominant car, and that F1 is first and foremost about building the best car.

[ntukza]

The passion and loyalty toward Schumacher by some Ferrari fans is certainly admirable, there's nothing wrong with it. But there's also nothing wrong with by not having any particular feelings toward Schumacher either. After all, Schumacher had no problem joining Mercedes in 2010 and racing for them. And why would he? He never signed any blood pact with Ferrari, he never owed them undying loyalty. Ferrari created the perfect bubble around him, the right car, the right teammate and the right people, and Schumacher delivered. It's business after all, money and performance dictates the contract between the driver and the team, not emotional attachment.

And it's always the same. The right car and the right team will always win, drivers don't matter match. F1 is machine dominated, only one car, the right car, can win the championship. Most of the time it doesn't matter who's is driving it. It was the same with Schumacher and every other past world champions, it is the same with Hamilton and it will be the same with the next world champion. But one has to be extremely lucky, enjoying dominant cars year after year is pretty rear.

+1000

[ntukza]

.... Also, during the Schumacher era of winning, the FIA made rules from 2000 thru 2005 to slow Ferrari down....

This is the differentiator.

You can use this argument to say Ferrari then was better than Mercedes now since Ferrari built dominant cars despite continuous rule changes. But you can't use this argument to say MS is better than LH since both drivers benefitted from superior machinery (MS definitely benefitted from superior machinery on his way to 91).

[tifosi1993]

So next up is Imola. I think we can have another good weekend there. Car is solid from chassis side, and Imola has no long straights. Hopefully the weather will be a bit warmer than Portugal, so we can see the full potential.

Edit: Didn't realize that they have removed the final chicane. So turn 18 (the real final corner) to turn 2 is now full throttle. But still, I think we can have another solid weekend at Imola.

[PURE PASSION]

So next up is Imola. I think we can have another good weekend there. Car is solid from chassis side, and Imola has no long straights. Hopefully the weather will be a bit warmer than Portugal, so we can see the full potential.

Edit: Didn't realize that they have removed the final chicane. So turn 18 (the real final corner) to turn 2 is now full throttle. But still, I think we can have another solid weekend at Imola.

i read an analysis of yesterdays qualy ,from F1aT, and the data showed that in some corners Lec was the only one in full throttle!!!!!!!

[jgonzalesm6]

You can use this argument to say Ferrari then was better than Mercedes now since Ferrari built dominant cars despite continuous rule changes. But you can't use this argument to say MS is better than LH since both drivers benefitted from superior machinery (MS definitely benefitted from superior machinery on his way to 91).

MS made Benetton in 1994 and 1995, then took himself and team to Ferrari and made Ferrari from 2000 to 2004. All this due to unlimited testing. Michael knew more than the engineers.

Lewis did'nt make Mercedes. Mercedes bought BRAWNGP, whom won in 2009, and were an okay full works constructor until the new formula change in 2014. The engineers know way more than the driver.

Mercedes made Lewis. Lewis did'nt make Mercedes.

[KimiBot]

MS made Benetton in 1994 and 1995, then took himself and team to Ferrari and made Ferrari from 2000 to 2004. All this due to unlimited testing. Michael knew more than the engineers.

Lewis did'nt make Mercedes. Mercedes bought BRAWNGP, whom won in 2009, and were an okay full works constructor until the new formula change in 2014. The engineers know way more than the driver.

Mercedes made Lewis. Lewis did'nt make Mercedes.

Michael Schumacher played a major role in transforming Mercedes into championship contenders before he left them, according to former team principal Ross Brawn.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/03/...success-brawn/

[Redfive]

Sad to see Michael's record go. For a long time I hoped this moment will never come, at least not for a few more decades. It came too soon, but it is what it is.

Let's be honest here, if Michael had a totally dominant car for 7 years running like Hamboy has, he would not have 91 wins, he would have 191.

[jgonzalesm6]

Michael Schumacher played a major role in transforming Mercedes into championship contenders before he left them, according to former team principal Ross Brawn.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/03/...success-brawn/

Yep. Mercedes dominance has the foundations of Schumacher and Ross Brawn.

[FerrariF60]

Let's be honest here, if Michael had a totally dominant car for 7 years running like Hamboy has, he would not have 91 wins, he would have 191.

i'd have to totally agree with you there

[Tifoso Svedese]

Let's be honest here, if Michael had a totally dominant car for 7 years running like Hamboy has, he would not have 91 wins, he would have 191.

Schumacher in a Williams between 1992 and 1997 would've obliterated everything in sight.

In reality, he only had the best car three years of his career (2001, 2002 and 2004) and he absolutely destroyed the field each of those times. The 2000 Ferrari was more or less identical with the McLaren, but three of his titles were won in plain inferior equipment. 1994 it was the engine, 1995 the downforce and 2003 the tyres.

Schumacher's team mate performances in his Ferrari team's title-winning years:

4-3-2-4-2

Hamilton's Mercedes' team mates' performances in 2014-2020:

2-2-1-3-5-2-2 (likely)

Quite a big difference there. Also then keep in mind that Barrichello was an excellent wet-weather driver and very good at tyre conservation, something Bottas is absolutely ridiculously bad at.

Let's just say though, that Schumacher wasn't in the car in 2007 and 2008 definitely were missed opportunities.

[paolo lalli]

Records are meant to be broken 100% but not in the way mercedes pre orchestrated this hybrid era with the fia to satisfy the always politically correct lewis Hamilton.BOTTAS will amount to nothing other than a buttler whom ever baptised this is a legend.Charles is a star with a performing ferrari under his seat he will out perform Hamilton by then the politically correct one will probably retire there fore dodging a bullet I hope not the f1 world needs to see mercedes and Lewis cop a fair dinkham hiding i can only keep my fingers crossed for this chapter.

[MSC Fan]

Judging by today's performance, I'd reckon we will have a strong finish in Imola and Istanbul as well. We may barely hold on to points in Bahrain 1 and be absolutely nowhere in Bahrain 2. Abu Dhabi should be a decent finish as well especially if Charles keeps up this insane qualifying performance. I think it will be quite optimistic of us to expect a P4 finish in the standings but P6 is achievable.

[ntukza]

MS made Benetton in 1994 and 1995, then took himself and team to Ferrari and made Ferrari from 2000 to 2004. All this due to unlimited testing. Michael knew more than the engineers.

Lewis did'nt make Mercedes. Mercedes bought BRAWNGP, whom won in 2009, and were an okay full works constructor until the new formula change in 2014. The engineers know way more than the driver.

Mercedes made Lewis. Lewis did'nt make Mercedes.

Fantastic. Well done to Michael for that. But we're not talking about their team-making skills, we're talking about their driving achievements.

[ntukza]

Let's be honest here, if Michael had a totally dominant car for 7 years running like Hamboy has, he would not have 91 wins, he would have 191.

Not that many but yes I'd like to believe he would have won a lot more than 91.

(By the way, would you call Merc dominant in 2017 & 2018?)

[ntukza]

Schumacher in a Williams between 1992 and 1997 would've obliterated everything in sight.

In reality, he only had the best car three years of his career (2001, 2002 and 2004) and he absolutely destroyed the field each of those times. The 2000 Ferrari was more or less identical with the McLaren, but three of his titles were won in plain inferior equipment. 1994 it was the engine, 1995 the downforce and 2003 the tyres.

Schumacher's team mate performances in his Ferrari team's title-winning years:

4-3-2-4-2

Hamilton's Mercedes' team mates' performances in 2014-2020:

2-2-1-3-5-2-2 (likely)

Quite a big difference there. Also then keep in mind that Barrichello was an excellent wet-weather driver and very good at tyre conservation, something Bottas is absolutely ridiculously bad at.

Let's just say though, that Schumacher wasn't in the car in 2007 and 2008 definitely were missed opportunities.

Fair analysis, and I must agree. But let me throw a spanner in the works a little. If it was Hamilton in Schumacher's car in 94, 95, 00 & 03 would he not have won those championships? Where do we look for the answer to this hypothetical question? Because finding it would settle the argument.

[tifosi1993]

Judging by today's performance, I'd reckon we will have a strong finish in Imola and Istanbul as well. We may barely hold on to points in Bahrain 1 and be absolutely nowhere in Bahrain 2. Abu Dhabi should be a decent finish as well especially if Charles keeps up this insane qualifying performance. I think it will be quite optimistic of us to expect a P4 finish in the standings but P6 is achievable.

Not expecting points in Bahrain, but yes Imola, Istanbul and Abu Dhabi (sector 3) should be good for us.

[aroutis]

Fair analysis, and I must agree. But let me throw a spanner in the works a little. If it was Hamilton in Schumacher's car in 94, 95, 00 & 03 would he not have won those championships? Where do we look for the answer to this hypothetical question? Because finding it would settle the argument.

Answer is , we don't know and until we have lulu in a similar conditions championship, we'll not know.

[jgonzalesm6]

Fantastic. Well done to Michael for that. But we're not talking about their team-making skills, we're talking about their driving achievements.

And that's the difference. Michael did both. Lewis did'nt.

[Brembo]

it's now 2020 and moving forward. Car conditions, how there built , will never revert backwards, only forward. Today's drivers need to and do think new era. Charles says 3 practices are needed; and gives him a great feel for the car come race time. A new floor improvement worked well. 4th, and Seb in the points. The young drivers today need to think 40 yrs. old before retiring. Kimi is a model example ! Who " Shouda, coulda, wouda, is a great way for F-1 fans to pass the time between races. Always keeping in mind that a win is a win! Races a week apart are great to have during these tough times.

[ntukza]

And that's the difference. Michael did both. Lewis did'nt.

Well then, Michael was better at building teams and Lewis is better at driving achievements. There we go. Case closed.
(Rob you can close the thread now )

[ntukza]

it's now 2020 and moving forward. Car conditions, how there built , will never revert backwards, only forward. Today's drivers need to and do think new era. Charles says 3 practices are needed; and gives him a great feel for the car come race time. A new floor improvement worked well. 4th, and Seb in the points. The young drivers today need to think 40 yrs. old before retiring. Kimi is a model example ! Who " Shouda, coulda, wouda, is a great way for F-1 fans to pass the time between races. Always keeping in mind that a win is a win! Races a week apart are great to have during these tough times.

+1

[MSC Fan]

I can't believe you all are trash talking Hamilton. He literally won his first championship in a silver F2007 and therefore, should be one of our champions.

[jgonzalesm6]

I can't believe you all are trash talking Hamilton. He literally won his first championship in a silver F2007 and therefore, should be one of our champions.

huh??? That was Kimi who won in the F2007.

[MSC Fan]

huh??? That was Kimi who won in the F2007.

2008 had the same regs as 2007. Do you remember a certain team that copied the F2007?

[jgonzalesm6]

2008 had the same regs as 2007. Do you remember a certain team that copied the F2007?

copy that.....I got it.

Okay, Lewis won in 2008.

Soooooo, what happened to Lewis between 2009 thru 2013. Did he win any WDC titles during those times IF he's so good??

[MSC Fan]

copy that.....I got it.

Okay, Lewis won in 2008.

Soooooo, what happened to Lewis between 2009 thru 2013. Did he win any WDC titles during those times IF he's so good??

I'm not saying he is that good. It was just a (bad) joke about how Hamilton literally won with a silver Ferrari and as a result should be given respect as a Ferrari champion.

[Tifoso Svedese]

Fair analysis, and I must agree. But let me throw a spanner in the works a little. If it was Hamilton in Schumacher's car in 94, 95, 00 & 03 would he not have won those championships? Where do we look for the answer to this hypothetical question? Because finding it would settle the argument.

2000 maybe, the other three no. The Williamses of all those three seasons were out of this world.

[FerrariF60]

copy that.....I got it.

Okay, Lewis won in 2008.

Soooooo, what happened to Lewis between 2009 thru 2013. Did he win any WDC titles during those times IF he's so good??

Everyone around the world praises Shamilton like he’s God’s gift to F1 especially the English biased media who actually relates to him a the GOAT...when in fact he did quite average from 09-13....and especially 2011 when he got spanked by an average teammate all season long...yeah Button

So to me he is NOT better than Michael no matter how many more wins he gets as he’s only managed that in that Merc rocket since 2014 while having absolutely no competition from any other team or teammate (other than Rosberg cause we all know that Botass is a clear butler and a #2) all this time

[KimiBot]

Everyone around the world praises Shamilton like he’s God’s gift to F1 especially the English biased media who actually relates to him a the GOAT...when in fact he did quite average from 09-13....and especially 2011 when he got spanked by an average teammate all season long...yeah Button

So to me he is NOT better than Michael no matter how many more wins he gets as he’s only managed that in that Merc rocket since 2014 while having absolutely no competition from any other team or teammate (other than Rosberg cause we all know that Botass is a clear butler and a #2) all this time