Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio De Portugal 2020 - RACE

[ntukza]

Brazil 2008 last lap was one of the most depressing chapter for a Ferrari fan, so thanks for reminding!
Felipe deserved that championship, that engine failure in Hungary and that disastrous pitstop in Singapore, he lost 20 points with those two incidents, without any faults of his own.

And there wouldn't be any Sch-Ham debate if some Ferrari fan could gasp this simple face: records are made to be broken. Hamilton will become the most successful driver and nothing will change that. So let's concentrate on the present, Because we have bigger things to worry about than Schumacher's broken records.

+1

[ntukza]

Sure records are made to be broken but how they're broken matters. I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that winning titles and races in a car that doesn't have any competition is the same as taking it to the wire every year. Schumacher didn't win in 97, 98 but he put up a great fight to make those years close against more dominant cars. The engine freezes that were put in place in 2014/5 and this year that has pretty much guaranteed Merc and their drivers wins. I think Hamilton is a great driver, unfortunately he hasn't had to prove it in less than competitive cars or against a top tier team mate while he's been at Merc. I think the best thing Ham can do for his career is either leave Merc after next year and drive for another team or let Merc give him a competitive team mate. It would erase any doubts about his abilities. Schumacher and Alonso became legends because of what they did with mediocre cars.... even now Max and Leclerc are doing the same. Sadly Ham has had it too easy... even seems to have to manufacture drama about his car sometimes to make it seem like he's working.

Unfortunately how records are broken really doesn't matter. The majority of Schumacher's 91 wins came through dominant cars and with average teammates. Should we discount those as well? I didn't think so. Records are set and broken primarily with the fastest cars. I say this again, if Schumacher never had dominant cars in his career he would not hold any of his records. Yes he would have impressed like in the late 90s but he wouldn't be holding the records. Whether a driver breaks records by beating 5 other competitive drivers or simply mops the floor with just his team mate, he still needs to win 91 races to break the record.

I do agree of course that LH hasn't been tested the way MS has, and I like how you define a legend as having impressed with lesser machinery. Perhaps agreeing on a criteria for what constitutes a legend would move the debate forward.

[jgonzalesm6]

Unfortunately how records are broken really doesn't matter. The majority of Schumacher's 91 wins came through dominant cars and with average teammates. Should we discount those as well? I didn't think so. Records are set and broken primarily with the fastest cars. I say this again, if Schumacher never had dominant cars in his career he would not hold any of his records. Yes he would have impressed like in the late 90s but he wouldn't be holding the records. Whether a driver breaks records by beating 5 other competitive drivers or simply mops the floor with just his team mate, he still needs to win 91 races to break the record.

I do agree of course that LH hasn't been tested the way MS has, and I like how you define a legend as having impressed with lesser machinery. Perhaps agreeing on a criteria for what constitutes a legend would move the debate forward.

Niki Lauda admitted to Luca di Montezemolo that Mercedes started on this hybrid formula since 2007. Mercedes were adamant on getting this hybrid formula in 2014.

You also had a token system, started 2014 thru 2016, and engine freezes (2020 thru 2021).

Schumacher's era did'nt have a 7 year lead over everyone else nor engine freezes and a token system.

[frepjr]

and even that MIGHTY BOTTAS beats him now and then, GOAT, lol.

When they allow it.

[Brembo]

When they allow it.

Rubenization at Merc! It worked for Schumy back then. 91 wins didn't come easy. It's great to get by with a little help form your friends ! Getting it written into your driver contract is one smart move. Give credit where credit is due. Charles is doing great behind the wheel . We Ferrari fans are lucky to have him!

[aroutis]

Niki Lauda admitted to Luca di Montezemolo that Mercedes started on this hybrid formula since 2007. Mercedes were adamant on getting this hybrid formula in 2014.

You also had a token system, started 2014 thru 2016, and engine freezes (2020 thru 2021).

Schumacher's era did'nt have a 7 year lead over everyone else nor engine freezes and a token system.

Trying to explain what everything knows, is not working to lewis' fans.

[aroutis]

Rubenization at Merc! It worked for Schumy back then. 91 wins didn't come easy. It's great to get by with a little help form your friends ! Getting it written into your driver contract is one smart move. Give credit where credit is due. Charles is doing great behind the wheel . We Ferrari fans are lucky to have him!

Post 245, 10/27/2020, brembo finally admits that in Mercedes Bottas is the new Rubens.

Never will you again say that in Mercedes they allow equal racing and all that crap, ok now?

Adding to that, the lulu had a merc that had no oppositions for a number of years. Let that sink in to you :D

[nani_s23]

W

I beg the differ mate....he clearly was favoriting by Ron Dennis back then...as seen in numerous races in 2007...if it wasn’t for that Alo most definitely would have won the WDC that year....and NO, I am not an Alo fanboy....lol

Perfect

[Brembo]

Not OK now. It worked for Shumy back then to get to 91. So IF!!! Merc had Rubenization it would mean the same as far as the wins counting. That's what I meant, IF !! Max and Lewis having a good time talking to each other said that the young drivers today will look to 40 yrs. old before they retire, because of the new records being set. If they want to break them. A good way to look at it. Saying Merc for years puts out a car with no opposition meaning Ferrari along with the other teams can't come near them no matter how they try is really putting our team down! Trolling here at a Ferrari forum. Stop saying over and over that Merc is the GOAT team. Ferrari is not Mia Katastrofi . Let that sink in to all Merc team fans here. The names Enzo, Ferrari , Marenello Italy, are still the greatest names in F-1 . Please stop with all that Merc is GOAT crap now. Try believing next race Ferrari can do a podium! Charles is for sure giving his best!

[paolo lalli]

Even mercedes acknowledge the talent of Charles.

[Silent Bob]

I have Brembo fatigue. We need to let it go. I don't think anyone will convince the other or change their minds.
To me Schumacher's wins were the best because they came with Ferrari. I also cheered when Rubens won.... those couple of times.

[Brembo]

I have Brembo fatigue. We need to let it go. I don't think anyone will convince the other or change their minds.
To me Schumacher's wins were the best because they came with Ferrari. I also cheered when Rubens won.... those couple of times.

Those couple of times could have been at least 1 more! I'll stop there! For me 3 practices mean 3 days of F-1 to watch. I also really like the races a week apart. Every one gets paid plenty $$$ , let them work!

[Silent Bob]

Those couple of times could have been at least 1 more! I'll stop there! For me 3 practices mean 3 days of F-1 to watch. I also really like the races a week apart. Every one gets paid plenty $$$ , let them work!

Agree completely. I look forward to Friday practices, shortens the time needed to wait for races.

[Brembo]

Right now I would be an hour away from relaxing watching the 1st. practice. Oh well ! Thank God for pasta y vino!

[ntukza]

Niki Lauda admitted to Luca di Montezemolo that Mercedes started on this hybrid formula since 2007. Mercedes were adamant on getting this hybrid formula in 2014.

You also had a token system, started 2014 thru 2016, and engine freezes (2020 thru 2021).

Schumacher's era did'nt have a 7 year lead over everyone else nor engine freezes and a token system.

Like I said elsewhere, that argument proves that Ferrari of the early 2000s was a better team than Mercedes of the current decade because Ferrari managed to produce championship winning cars year after year in unfavourable conditions (ie constant rule changes), unlike Merc who produce championship winning cars in favourable conditions (ie hybrid advantage). However, that argument cannot be used to argue that MS was better than LH because, thanks to Ferrari's brilliance as mentioned in the previous sentence, Schumacher drove a dominant Ferrari between 2000 and 2004. Therefore, both MS and LW benefited from dominant cars on their way to the top of the records, only that their car domance was due to the team's brilliance in one case and the team's unfair advantage in the other case.

Now, try to think about that and process it without the blatent bias that is rife on this forum.

By the way, my all-time favourite driver is and always will be Michael Schumacher. I hate seeing LH win. I always root for Bottas, believe it or not (I don't like Max either), and I hate the fact that LH is surpassing MS's records. But all that has not made me an irrational, non-thinking F1 fan (and I'm not suggest that you are one, I'm just stating the record).

[ntukza]

Even mercedes acknowledge the talent of Charles.

Merc will try to sign Charles in a few years, when LH retires. Let's enjoy him while we still can and hope that we get our act together before that happens.

[ntukza]

I have Brembo fatigue. We need to let it go. I don't think anyone will convince the other or change their minds.
To me Schumacher's wins were the best because they came with Ferrari. I also cheered when Rubens won.... those couple of times.

+1

[JPZ]

Like I said elsewhere, that argument proves that Ferrari of the early 2000s was a better team than Mercedes of the current decade because Ferrari managed to produce championship winning cars year after year in unfavourable conditions (ie constant rule changes), unlike Merc who produce championship winning cars in favourable conditions (ie hybrid advantage). However, that argument cannot be used to argue that MS was better than LH because, thanks to Ferrari's brilliance as mentioned in the previous sentence, Schumacher drove a dominant Ferrari between 2000 and 2004. Therefore, both MS and LW benefited from dominant cars on their way to the top of the records, only that their car domance was due to the team's brilliance in one case and the team's unfair advantage in the other case.

Now, try to think about that and process it without the blatent bias that is rife on this forum.

By the way, my all-time favourite driver is and always will be Michael Schumacher. I hate seeing LH win. I always root for Bottas, believe it or not (I don't like Max either), and I hate the fact that LH is surpassing MS's records. But all that has not made me an irrational, non-thinking F1 fan (and I'm not suggest that you are one, I'm just stating the record).

Though in Schumacher's career from 91 to 99, he was often competing and winning in cars which were not the best.

He took both the 97 and 98 championships to the last race and in 96 he won 3 races in a terrible car. In 99, before he broke his leg he was winning races as well and the Mclaren was arguably still the fastest car.

However, all I personally care about is Ferrari's records, not the drivers records, as long as Ferrari wins.

[ntukza]

Though in Schumacher's career from 91 to 99, he was often competing and winning in cars which were not the best.

He took both the 97 and 98 championships to the last race and in 96 he won 3 races in a terrible car. In 99, before he broke his leg he was winning races as well and the Mclaren was arguably still the fastest car.

However, all I personally care about is Ferrari's records, not the drivers records, as long as Ferrari wins.

My main peeve on this topic is when people say that LH would not be so successful without a dominant car, to which I respond, neither would MS (Schumacher won 62% of his victories between 2000 and 2006, and a further 17% with Benneton in 94/95). But yes, MS certainly had to struggle more and won more with less. I think there's a lot of scope for detailed and interesting analysis into this, beyond just the fanboy/anti-Lewis nonsense, and it would be awesome if someone like CrankyYankeeF1 delved into it.

[Brembo]

There should be a Friday before the Sun. race a F-1 Scooter race !

[aroutis]

My main peeve on this topic is when people say that LH would not be so successful without a dominant car, to which I respond, neither would MS (Schumacher won 62% of his victories between 2000 and 2006, and a further 17% with Benneton in 94/95). But yes, MS certainly had to struggle more and won more with less. I think there's a lot of scope for detailed and interesting analysis into this, beyond just the fanboy/anti-Lewis nonsense, and it would be awesome if someone like CrankyYankeeF1 delved into it.

Ferrari did not have a dominant car all throughout 2000-2004. I am not sure how you figure that out.
Yes, Ferrari had a magnificent car at 2002, and a really excellent dominant car in 2004.
But putting these two years aside, their cars were not dominant.
For instance , 2003 Michael almost did not win his championship because of regulations' change after 2002 (look up) in order to try shuffle things, against Kimi, who only had 1 victory.
I am not even going to 2000, 2001 where you just can't claim that Ferrari had a dominant car.
And I don't even have to explain what happened at 2005 when FiA finally had their way, with yet another regulation change in order to help Michelin get their title (and leave) and stop Michael and Ferrari from getting more championships.

Which goes to show why people laugh at this whole comparison with Michael.

[stefa]

Ferrari did not have a dominant car all throughout 2000-2004. I am not sure how you figure that out.
Yes, Ferrari had a magnificent car at 2002, and a really excellent dominant car in 2004.
But putting these two years aside, their cars were not dominant.
For instance , 2003 Michael almost did not win his championship because of regulations' change after 2002 (look up) in order to try shuffle things, against Kimi, who only had 1 victory.
I am not even going to 2000, 2001 where you just can't claim that Ferrari had a dominant car.
And I don't even have to explain what happened at 2005 when FiA finally had their way, with yet another regulation change in order to help Michelin get their title (and leave) and stop Michael and Ferrari from getting more championships.

Which goes to show why people laugh at this whole comparison with Michael.

[wisepie]

Ferrari did not have a dominant car all throughout 2000-2004. I am not sure how you figure that out.
Yes, Ferrari had a magnificent car at 2002, and a really excellent dominant car in 2004.
But putting these two years aside, their cars were not dominant.
For instance , 2003 Michael almost did not win his championship because of regulations' change after 2002 (look up) in order to try shuffle things, against Kimi, who only had 1 victory.
I am not even going to 2000, 2001 where you just can't claim that Ferrari had a dominant car.
And I don't even have to explain what happened at 2005 when FiA finally had their way, with yet another regulation change in order to help Michelin get their title (and leave) and stop Michael and Ferrari from getting more championships.

Which goes to show why people laugh at this whole comparison with Michael.

Well said, this comparison is dead to me, different times and circumstances, HAM has had the dominant car through the past 6 years with the odd occasion when Ferrari or Red Bull were able to challenge the Merc. Once out in front, it was a done deal, barring any incidents. It's a real pity that Ferrari's challenge in the second half of 2019 was scuppered by the FIA/Merc/RB, it certainly wasn't in the interest of the sport to castrate the prancing horse.