SF21 Challenger Thread

[paolo lalli]

Do you think that ferrari finishing 4th 5th or 6th will be enough for ferrari for the 2021 season well it won't be it will end up being Binnotto's dismissal. 3rd at best and he will survive.

[Brembo]

Another one with "Binotto Syndrome " maybe next year or the next year. I think of how Max went from a crash roookie to a top driver putting R Bull on the map. That's how Ferrari has to do it. HP; Fast pits and two drivers starting each race with the thought of a PODIUM on the way. 23 races to make points !!

[ntukza]

Do you think that ferrari finishing 4th 5th or 6th will be enough for ferrari for the 2021 season well it won't be it will end up being Binnotto's dismissal. 3rd at best and he will survive.

I think a close 4th will be enough. If McLaren take third and we beat AMF1, Alpine & AlphaTauri we would have done well. Let's not forget how difficult it is to make big gains under the 2021 regs.

[330 p4]

I think a close 4th will be enough. If McLaren take third and we beat AMF1, Alpine & AlphaTauri we would have done well. Let's not forget how difficult it is to make big gains under the 2021 regs.

Due to last minute changes enforced on the 2020 car knocking the whole concept out and having that ring fenced for the whole of 2020 Ferrari have huge scope to make huge net gains on rivals. Wont be enough for the top 2 but by having a fair run at the 2021 car they should beat the midfield teams. Midfield will make incremental gains but Ferrari get a fair chance at a new engine, the drag power ratio the car was designed with and a gearbox that is not flexing. Those fixes should bring a huge gain where others are simply chipping away at underlying performance, before 2020 Ferrari were well ahead of the midfield so stands to reason these fixes should pit them in front.

[nani_s23]

My biggest worry is Mclaren who for years was our closest competitor, I think they will be very strong from the first race, so another team now with a Merc engine to get in Ferrari's way. But with the two Charlies, at least we should be able get some points for the WCC. As for the hopes pinned on 2022, I'm beginning to doubt anything Binotto says.

If you say anything about Binotto ... few of them will come back at you

Their statement is “Here in ferrari only driver is responsible for not bringing the titles”. .

[Silent Bob]

If you say anything about Binotto ... few of them will come back at you

Their statement is “Here in ferrari only driver is responsible for not bringing the titles”. .

It's a bit silly to keep on harping on Binotto. Ferrari have built a better car than Red Bull since 2015 and I don't see anyone calling for Newey or Horner to be fired. There were circumstances that affected our car last year and those carried over to this year. Without those issues, Ferrari might have won the title last year.
Ferrari is calling for stability and that's what we need right now. Last thing we need is to keep firing talent. Who would step in for Binotto when they realize that if a car they're in charge of isn't competitive in 1 year then they'd be fired He's done some good stuff and the team seems united. Give the man some time, he's new in this position and with his talent could be the next Brawn if he's allowed to be. He's technically very good and he's learning the ropes as far as politics go. Last thing Ferrari needs is turmoil before a new rules change.

[ferrari1.8t]

It's a bit silly to keep on harping on Binotto. Ferrari have built a better car than Red Bull since 2015 and I don't see anyone calling for Newey or Horner to be fired. There were circumstances that affected our car last year and those carried over to this year. Without those issues, Ferrari might have won the title last year.
Ferrari is calling for stability and that's what we need right now. Last thing we need is to keep firing talent. Who would step in for Binotto when they realize that if a car they're in charge of isn't competitive in 1 year then they'd be fired He's done some good stuff and the team seems united. Give the man some time, he's new in this position and with his talent could be the next Brawn if he's allowed to be. He's technically very good and he's learning the ropes as far as politics go. Last thing Ferrari needs is turmoil before a new rules change.

Well said! Everyone acts like it’s only Ferrari’s job to topple Mercedes, meanwhile no other team over the last 7 years have come as close as we have. Yet everyone still has faith in Newey and Horner. Binotto has been at Ferrari for a long time, he isn’t new to F1, just to this position. Do the tifosi realize he was one of Michael’s engineers? Give him some time and stability and we will bring Ferrari to the top. If he messes up the regulation changes after 2022, then we can talk about a replacement.

[jgonzalesm6]

Ferrari have built a better car than Red Bull since 2015 and I don't see anyone calling for Newey or Horner to be fired.

1.) We don't know IF Ferrari built a better car since 2015 than RedBull. The ONLY reason RedBull was lacking performance at the beginning of this turbo hybrid era was the engine by Renault....which suffered in performance and DNF's. Horner was throwing Renaults PU under the bus for years.....which was understandable if you're paying anywhere from $3 million to $5 million USD each PU and it kept "crapping out" on you.

2.) The management style at Redbull, namely Dieter Mateschitz, is'nt like Ferrari's management style. Both are utterly and vastly different. Newey has built some great cars BEFORE coming to RedBull....he is considered an aerodynamic guru in the F1 world. Newey has been with RedBull since 2006....that's 15 years.

Horner does'nt have the pedigree like Newey has but has proved himself with Redbull as TP since 2005......that's 16 years.

There were circumstances that affected our car last year and those carried over to this year. Without those issues, Ferrari might have won the title last year.

We don't really know if these circumstances, namely the 2nd fuel flow meter, ONLY affected Ferrari in 2020 and possibly into 2021. In Austin of 2019, which was the latter half of the season is when Ferrari slowed down dramatically. That's also the time Max Verstappen said that Ferrari was cheating. Of course Ferrari downplayed Max's alleged criticism but Max was right. How did Max know if Max works for Redbull???--->somethng to think about.

The 2nd fuel flow meter affected Ferrari's performance so bad that it dropped Ferrari's WCC title from 2nd place in 1 year to 6th place....that's drastic. Would the 2nd fuel flow meter have affected Ferrari's performance in 2019??? How about 2018??? or 2017???? or further. Again, look at how far down the ladder Ferrari fell in 1 years time when the 2nd fuel flow meter was introduced. This is of course speculative but it makes me think not the mention the closed doors decision of the FIA in its decsion not to divulge their findings against Ferrari regarding the "cheating" of the 1st fuel flow meter.

Ferrari is calling for stability and that's what we need right now. Last thing we need is to keep firing talent. Who would step in for Binotto when they realize that if a car they're in charge of isn't competitive in 1 year then they'd be fired He's done some good stuff and the team seems united. Give the man some time, he's new in this position and with his talent could be the next Brawn if he's allowed to be. He's technically very good and he's learning the ropes as far as politics go. Last thing Ferrari needs is turmoil before a new rules change.

Stability.....now that's a giant hurdle for Ferrari's top brass to achieve. Mercedes and Redbull have achieved that stability because their management styles are completely diffferent to Ferrari's....even ex-Ferrari employee's have flourished at Mercedes.

Honestly, I don't get why Ferrari hires Marlboro men to run the team when they have no business running an F1 team....but maybe that's the relationship Marlboro and Ferrari have.

Now, Domenicali will run F1 whom used to be Ferrari's TP after Jean Todt left. Domenicali ran Lamborghini and intorduced Lamborghini to the SUV market...which the SUV market currently is the bread and butter of most automotive corporations....way ahead of Ferrari's introduction to the SUV market. I would say Domenicali is a good businessman and knew how to run an F1 team....alot better than Mattiacci and Arrivabene.

[wisepie]

It's a bit silly to keep on harping on Binotto. Ferrari have built a better car than Red Bull since 2015 and I don't see anyone calling for Newey or Horner to be fired. There were circumstances that affected our car last year and those carried over to this year. Without those issues, Ferrari might have won the title last year.
Ferrari is calling for stability and that's what we need right now. Last thing we need is to keep firing talent. Who would step in for Binotto when they realize that if a car they're in charge of isn't competitive in 1 year then they'd be fired He's done some good stuff and the team seems united. Give the man some time, he's new in this position and with his talent could be the next Brawn if he's allowed to be. He's technically very good and he's learning the ropes as far as politics go. Last thing Ferrari needs is turmoil before a new rules change.

I have always maintained faith in Binotto but his continuing negative vibes really don't inspire confidence. I have also commented before that he shouldn't have been expected to be the TD and TP without a right hand man (or woman!) to assist at the circuits. Maybe this year will be different with Meikles supporting/replacing him at some races, and then I might start to be more confident about 2022. Binotto's comments may be playing down expectations but it becomes depressing for us tifosi.

[tpe]

Watching the Drive to survive, I can't avoid to note the feeling I got that Binotto feels bad about the engine saga and that Vettel looked to have taken the split personally. His comments, his reactions, his actions and generally his stance looked like a man that could not stand being near Ferrari personnel. That's strange.

[Silent Bob]

1.) We don't know IF Ferrari built a better car since 2015 than RedBull. The ONLY reason RedBull was lacking performance at the beginning of this turbo hybrid era was the engine by Renault....which suffered in performance and DNF's. Horner was throwing Renaults PU under the bus for years.....which was understandable if you're paying anywhere from $3 million to $5 million USD each PU and it kept "crapping out" on you.

2.) The management style at Redbull, namely Dieter Mateschitz, is'nt like Ferrari's management style. Both are utterly and vastly different. Newey has built some great cars BEFORE coming to RedBull....he is considered an aerodynamic guru in the F1 world. Newey has been with RedBull since 2006....that's 15 years.

Horner does'nt have the pedigree like Newey has but has proved himself with Redbull as TP since 2005......that's 16 years.




We don't really know if these circumstances, namely the 2nd fuel flow meter, ONLY affected Ferrari in 2020 and possibly into 2021. In Austin of 2019, which was the latter half of the season is when Ferrari slowed down dramatically. That's also the time Max Verstappen said that Ferrari was cheating. Of course Ferrari downplayed Max's alleged criticism but Max was right. How did Max know if Max works for Redbull???--->somethng to think about.

The 2nd fuel flow meter affected Ferrari's performance so bad that it dropped Ferrari's WCC title from 2nd place in 1 year to 6th place....that's drastic. Would the 2nd fuel flow meter have affected Ferrari's performance in 2019??? How about 2018??? or 2017???? or further. Again, look at how far down the ladder Ferrari fell in 1 years time when the 2nd fuel flow meter was introduced. This is of course speculative but it makes me think not the mention the closed doors decision of the FIA in its decsion not to divulge their findings against Ferrari regarding the "cheating" of the 1st fuel flow meter.



Stability.....now that's a giant hurdle for Ferrari's top brass to achieve. Mercedes and Redbull have achieved that stability because their management styles are completely diffferent to Ferrari's....even ex-Ferrari employee's have flourished at Mercedes.

Honestly, I don't get why Ferrari hires Marlboro men to run the team when they have no business running an F1 team....but maybe that's the relationship Marlboro and Ferrari have.

Now, Domenicali will run F1 whom used to be Ferrari's TP after Jean Todt left. Domenicali ran Lamborghini and intorduced Lamborghini to the SUV market...which the SUV market currently is the bread and butter of most automotive corporations....way ahead of Ferrari's introduction to the SUV market. I would say Domenicali is a good businessman and knew how to run an F1 team....alot better than Mattiacci and Arrivabene.

We know for sure our car was better because we finished higher than Red Bull. Their engine problem was their problem. We built a better overall car/engine than they did. Cant be disputed.
The technical directives did hurt Ferrari. If we were able to use the 2019 engine with evolutionary updates in 2020 we might have won the WCC.
So you agree that stability is better for Ferrari than constant turn over. Horner has been with Red Bull for a long time and so has Newey. Maybe using Red Bull strategy of supporting your staff might work for us too if we give our guys time to bring us back to the top without calling for them to be fired everytime something goes wrong.

[MSC Fan]

Watching the Drive to survive, I can't avoid to note the feeling I got that Binotto feels bad about the engine saga and that Vettel looked to have taken the split personally. His comments, his reactions, his actions and generally his stance looked like a man that could not stand being near Ferrari personnel. That's strange.

DTS is just mostly manufactured drama. Any thing they find remotely useful in creating drama, they magnify it to 100x.

[tpe]

You cannot fake reactions from people.
It's easy to see the drama, the script etc.

[MSC Fan]

You can't fake reactions but you certainly can take it out of context. Not the first time they've done that. Look at Grosjean trying to help the cameraman but instead getting portrayed as the one who pushed the cameraman aside in anger, for example. They even made Leclerc look like being smug over Vettel when it's clear that Leclerc respects Vettel very much and vice versa.

[jgonzalesm6]

We know for sure our car was better because we finished higher than Red Bull. Their engine problem was their problem. We built a better overall car/engine than they did. Cant be disputed.
The technical directives did hurt Ferrari. If we were able to use the 2019 engine with evolutionary updates in 2020 we might have won the WCC.

So RedBull, along with Mclaren, Racing Point, and Renault beat Ferrari in 2020 and they finally built a better car than Ferrari?? This could possibly be the same for 2021???

[tifosi1993]

All I know is that Leclerc, with a car that lacked 50-60 HP and compromised aero due to the lack of power, qualified 0.3 seconds off Mercedes in Portugal, a track with high downforce characteristics and was within 3 seconds off Red Bull before the first pit stop.

Now this year's car the SF21 doesn't lack 50 HP and according to Leclerc, the rear stability is better than last year's car.

Bahrain is all about engine, it has 4 straights and only 2 high speed corners, rest of the corners are stop-go. This track will reward the best engine and low drag cars. And throughout the testing, all Ferrari powered cars ran with high downforce RW, not suitable for Bahrain track. It doesn't matter if Ferrari is 3rd/4th fastest team here during the actual race weekend, Ferrari will be a lot closer to Mercedes, especially Leclerc.

[jgonzalesm6]

All I know is that Leclerc, with a car that lacked 50-60 HP and compromised aero due to the lack of power, qualified 0.3 seconds off Mercedes in Portugal, a track with high downforce characteristics and was within 3 seconds off Red Bull before the first pit stop.

Now this year's car the SF21 doesn't lack 50 HP and according to Leclerc, the rear stability is better than last year's car.

Bahrain is all about engine, it has 4 straights and only 2 high speed corners, rest of the corners are stop-go. This track will reward the best engine and low drag cars. And throughout the testing, all Ferrari powered cars ran with high downforce RW, not suitable for Bahrain track. It doesn't matter if Ferrari is 3rd/4th fastest team here during the actual race weekend, Ferrari will be a lot closer to Mercedes, especially Leclerc.

Leclerc finished 10th in the race.........

[Silent Bob]

So RedBull, along with Mclaren, Racing Point, and Renault beat Ferrari in 2020 and they finally built a better car than Ferrari?? This could possibly be the same for 2021???

Yes. They had a better car than we did. Our car was slow. It might be the same this year and most of the car is carry over but I dont think so because we are able to bring a new PU which should be better than last years so we should be a bit better overall. If other teams beat us this year then they built a better car. Pretty simple so not sure why you're so surprised. Usually the better car ends up ahead of the slower car.

[tifosi1993]

Leclerc finished 10th in the race.........

In Portugal? nope, he was P4.

In Bahrain? that was to be expected. 50 less HP on top of a draggy car, P10 was our max.

As I've said, Bahrain is all about engine power and drag. That is why Leclerc-SF90 was so dominant in 2019.

[Warp]

You cannot fake reactions from people.
It's easy to see the drama, the script etc.

Seriously ? Netflix dramatizes everything in their episodes. In episode 8, it look like Lando and Sainz friendship was over. They literally got Lando's words from another race and a incident with Perez and put it there so they will make fake tension.

[jgonzalesm6]

In Portugal? nope, he was P4.

In Bahrain? that was to be expected. 50 less HP on top of a draggy car, P10 was our max.

As I've said, Bahrain is all about engine power and drag. That is why Leclerc-SF90 was so dominant in 2019.

I was talking about Bahrain regarding Leclerc finishing 10th. I should have explained that.

[Warp]

So RedBull, along with Mclaren, Racing Point, and Renault beat Ferrari in 2020 and they finally built a better car than Ferrari?? This could possibly be the same for 2021???

The 2020 car was designed for a totally different engine. Ferrari had to shutdown their factories before other teams because of the pandemic. In top of that we have the stupid development freeze.

[jgonzalesm6]

Yes. They had a better car than we did. Our car was slow. It might be the same this year and most of the car is carry over but I dont think so because we are able to bring a new PU which should be better than last years so we should be a bit better overall. If other teams beat us this year then they built a better car. Pretty simple so not sure why you're so surprised. Usually the better car ends up ahead of the slower car.

Not surprised in that there were no major rules or regulation changes from 1 year to the next that would dictate a team that was finishing 2nd to all of a sudden drop to 6th while the other teams move up the ranks.

What's simple is that Ferrari got caught "cheating" the original fuel flow sensor so a 2nd fuel flow sensor was ruled hence the drastic and sudden drop in the WCC rankings. What's to say if this 2nd fuel flow sensor was enacted in previous years, IT IS POSSIBLE Ferrari would have dropped from 2nd place in the WCC rankings??

Just like the 2nd fuel flow sensor was the catalyst to Ferrari dropping in the WCC rankings in 2020 and possibly 2021, so to was the engine as being the catalyst to RedBull's achilles heel in this turbo hybrid era.

[jgonzalesm6]

The 2020 car was designed for a totally different engine. Ferrari had to shutdown their factories before other teams because of the pandemic. In top of that we have the stupid development freeze.

So during the pandemic, Ferrari lost anywhere from 40 to 50hp in 2020 therefore the drastic droppings in the WCC rankings???

[jgonzalesm6]

Seriously ? Netflix dramatizes everything in their episodes. In episode 8, it look like Lando and Sainz friendship was over. They literally got Lando's words from another race and a incident with Perez and put it there so they will make fake tension.

agreed.....it's all drama.

[Silent Bob]

So during the pandemic, Ferrari lost anywhere from 40 to 50hp in 2020 therefore the drastic droppings in the WCC rankings???

Yes they did. And no use looking back to 2017 or 2018. We were heavily scrutinized then and everything was found to be legal. Yes they lost a lot of power because of the new TD. No one disputing this but also because of covid they couldn't introduce the updated engine that was on the dyno. Hence we were slow.

[jgonzalesm6]

Yes they did. And no use looking back to 2017 or 2018. We were heavily scrutinized then and everything was found to be legal. Yes they lost a lot of power because of the new TD. No one disputing this but also because of covid they couldn't introduce the updated engine that was on the dyno. Hence we were slow.

I doubt it.

Agreed Ferrari was heavily scrutinized but that was the double battery issue. No one looked at the fuel flow sensor then until the end of 2019...that's when Ferrari lost power.

Updated engines make incremental horspower in this turbo hybrid era....like 10 to 20hp.....but not 40 to 50hp.....or drop 40 to 50hp unless a rule and regulation change or in this case a 2nd fuel flow meter introduction.

Ferrari will introduce an updated and revised engine in 2022.......revised because it follows the Mercedes split turbo MGU-H concept as will Renault. Honda adopted this concept in 2017.

[Warp]

I doubt it.

Agreed Ferrari was heavily scrutinized but that was the double battery issue. No one looked at the fuel flow sensor then until the end of 2019...that's when Ferrari lost power.

Updated engines make incremental horspower in this turbo hybrid era....like 10 to 20hp.....but not 40 to 50hp.....or drop 40 to 50hp unless a rule and regulation change or in this case a 2nd fuel flow meter introduction.

Ferrari will introduce an updated and revised engine in 2022.......revised because it follows the Mercedes split turbo MGU-H concept as will Renault. Honda adopted this concept in 2017.

I'm afraid that we're going to have a straight line speed problem this year too. Honda and Mercedes found alot of performance gains from the engine.

[jgonzalesm6]

I'm afraid that we're going to have a straight line speed problem this year too. Honda and Mercedes found alot of performance gains from the engine.

Agreed. Rinse and repeat of 2020 for Ferrari. Sainz even confirmed it.

BTW, Redbull has taken over the Honda PU dept. at Milton Keynes. So, since 2017 it has taken Honda roughly 4 to 5 years to "catch-up" to Mercedes since following the split turbo MGU-H concept.

[Silent Bob]

Not surprised in that there were no major rules or regulation changes from 1 year to the next that would dictate a team that was finishing 2nd to all of a sudden drop to 6th while the other teams move up the ranks.

What's simple is that Ferrari got caught "cheating" the original fuel flow sensor so a 2nd fuel flow sensor was ruled hence the drastic and sudden drop in the WCC rankings. What's to say if this 2nd fuel flow sensor was enacted in previous years, IT IS POSSIBLE Ferrari would have dropped from 2nd place in the WCC rankings??

Just like the 2nd fuel flow sensor was the catalyst to Ferrari dropping in the WCC rankings in 2020 and possibly 2021, so to was the engine as being the catalyst to RedBull's achilles heel in this turbo hybrid era.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. The drastic rule change was a Technical Directive that hobbled our engine and made us slower than we were in 2019.
The Red Bull finished behind Ferrari since 2015 but you're saying it's still the better car because it was only the engine that let it down. So the Ferrari was better in 2019 but in 2020 our engine let us down, so was Ferrari still the better car in 2020?