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Thread: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimiBot View Post
    He makes lots of promises, he talks a lot. Results still same, because Aston Martin and Renault failure, we do look a little bit better. not P10 and P12, it was P6 and P8.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...yh27BTY73.html

    I am happy that we have a fast car now.
    Talks a lot???? If anything he downplays everything. He is far from perfect and is definitely not the best TP we've had in this decade but he isn't someone who will promise anything that's far fetched. He isn't Eric Boullier.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance." - Michael Schumacher

  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimiBot View Post
    One Red Bull started from pit lane, and ended ahead both Ferraris, that is how fast car we have. Yeah, podiums for Ferrari, does not look like that is going to happen.
    We had 3 podiums in the worst car we've built in 40 years last year. But, yeah, go on with your lamenting.
    "I've always believed that you should never, ever give up and you should always keep fighting even when there's only a slightest chance." - Michael Schumacher

  3. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by PURE PASSION View Post
    My opinion in Binotto's statement is that it didnt refer to Vet specifacally ,but to that in the last almost 10 years, we only had 1 driver to deliver.The other use to underperform. We saw it on Alo -Mas.Alo-Kimi,Vet -Kimi and latter Lec-Vet !!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormsearcher View Post
    This sounds fair.
    I'm not so sure about that. I don't think you can make an analysis that spans ten years based on one race result where the drivers finished 6 and 8.
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  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimiBot View Post
    One Red Bull started from pit lane, and ended ahead both Ferraris, that is how fast car we have. Yeah, podiums for Ferrari, does not look like that is going to happen.
    I must say I also find this worrying. But let's think about it this way. If Car A starts in the pitlane and Car B starts in 4th, how much quicker than Car B does Car A have to be over 56 laps to finish ahead of Car B, all other things being equal? Anyone care to solve this math problem?
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  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    I must say I also find this worrying. But let's think about it this way. If Car A starts in the pitlane and Car B starts in 4th, how much quicker than Car B does Car A have to be over 56 laps to finish ahead of Car B, all other things being equal? Anyone care to solve this math problem?
    SC on lap 1 also helps null the loss of starting from the pits....
    Forza Ferrari

  6. #756
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    Look,
    We made progress compared to the last year.
    Now, let's see how much is this progress. Numbers are simplified.
    Let's say that Mercedes last year were at 1:30 per lap. We were 2 sec slower, so at 1:32.
    Now, this year Mercedes lost 1.5 sec, so they are at 1:31.5
    We lost 0.5, so we are at 1:32.5

    So, our progress is 1 sec.
    Is that good? Absolutely no.
    And that proves that apart from the engine, chassis was a dog too.

    Does this make me feel comfortable for 2022? No.

  7. #757
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    Binotto's expertise to the rescue ! Tech. is his forte !

  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    SC on lap 1 also helps null the loss of starting from the pits....
    Oh yes, of course!
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  9. #759
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    Just wondering why didn't we manage to make a pu as powerful or more powerful than mercs with 1 year in hand and no freeze or restrictions. I am sure 1 year is enough to redesign a new engine? Any ideas on that

  10. #760
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    You can't do that... Not enough time...

  11. #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1 View Post
    Just wondering why didn't we manage to make a pu as powerful or more powerful than mercs with 1 year in hand and no freeze or restrictions. I am sure 1 year is enough to redesign a new engine? Any ideas on that
    It's not like the other manufacturers have given up on their PUs. They are still developing as well plus Ferrari are apparently working on a new one again for next year.

  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1 View Post
    Just wondering why didn't we manage to make a pu as powerful or more powerful than mercs with 1 year in hand and no freeze or restrictions. I am sure 1 year is enough to redesign a new engine? Any ideas on that
    Mercedes developed and started this V6 turbo hybrid PU back in 2007....according to Niki Lauda.....so Mercedes had a head start. Not to mention when this V6 turbo hybrid was introduced, Italy was'nt into hybridization as opposed to Mercedes, Porsche or Audi(Germany). So Mercedes was way ahead in 2014 for the introduction of this V6 turbo hybrid PU.....like a 100hp ahead....and every year since, they have made evolutionary gains to the PU with the help of engine freezes and the token system.

    Honda has developed the Mercedes approach of the split turbo MGU-H concept in 2017, and so here we are in 2021 with RedBull and Alpha Tauri along with Honda whom have made significant gains in the PU dept.

    Ferrari and Renault will adopt the split turbo MGU-H concept for the 2022 car as this concept seems to be the most powerful and efficient to the current V6 turbo hybrid.

    The 2021 regulations also seem to favor the hiigh rake cars as opposed to the low rake cars due to the cut-out of the rear floor.
    Last edited by jgonzalesm6; 4th April 2021 at 17:08.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  13. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF1 View Post
    Just wondering why didn't we manage to make a pu as powerful or more powerful than mercs with 1 year in hand and no freeze or restrictions. I am sure 1 year is enough to redesign a new engine? Any ideas on that
    Because nothing stays static in F1. Others are also pouring millions into their PU development. Also PU development itself is quite restricted. Those days of introducing spec-2 or spec-3 during in-season are long gone.

    We should be very happy with our engine development. The gap to Mercedes is still there but it's not much. Next year's engine will be another big step forward.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    The 2021 regulations also seem to favor the hiigh rake cars as opposed to the low rake cars due to the cut-out of the rear floor.
    That's according to Aston Martin/Tracing Point, whatever you call it. I don't buy their low rake/ high rake excuse tbh. Mercedes is sill running with a low rake car compared to the Red Bull/ Alpha Tauri, but they sill won the first race. Our rake is not as extreme as Alpha Tauri, but we were comfortably faster than them in a track that was more tailored made for Alpha Tauri.

    The fact is, Tracing Point got caught with their pants down. It's quite clear that they don't design their own car. They just buy parts from Mercedes. They simply cut the floor of the 2020 Mercedes and expected it to be working as intended. But we all it's not that simple. Hence the low rake excuse.

    Last year they have costed other teams money with their illegal car. So I'm enjoying their suffering this year, plus their smugness was getting out of hand.

  15. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    That's according to Aston Martin/Tracing Point, whatever you call it. I don't buy their low rake/ high rake excuse tbh. Mercedes is sill running with a low rake car compared to the Red Bull/ Alpha Tauri, but they sill won the first race. Our rake is not as extreme as Alpha Tauri, but we were comfortably faster than them in a track that was more tailored made for Alpha Tauri.
    In the first race, RedBull had the fastest car. Not to mention, Checo got caught with a glitch on the opening lap and started in the pits....he's also adjusting to a new car. Marko stated in an interview that Max ran with a "detuned" engine during the race because of temperature problems.

    More issue's or articles on Mercedes low rake angle for 2021........whether you believe them or not.

    Why F1's 2021 rules hurt low rake Mercedes more
    https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/lo...rules/5923746/


    Gary Anderson: Have new F1 rules hurt low-rake Mercedes?
    https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-...rake-mercedes/


    Toto Wolff Admits Mercedes F1 Can’t Fix 2021 Weakness by Copying Red Bull
    https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1...ying-red-bull/
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  16. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Mercedes developed and started this V6 turbo hybrid PU back in 2007....according to Niki Lauda.....so Mercedes had a head start. Not to mention when this V6 turbo hybrid was introduced, Italy was'nt into hybridization as opposed to Mercedes, Porsche or Audi(Germany). So Mercedes was way ahead in 2014 for the introduction of this V6 turbo hybrid PU.....like a 100hp ahead....and every year since, they have made evolutionary gains to the PU with the help of engine freezes and the token system.

    Honda has developed the Mercedes approach of the split turbo MGU-H concept in 2017, and so here we are in 2021 with RedBull and Alpha Tauri along with Honda whom have made significant gains in the PU dept.

    Ferrari and Renault will adopt the split turbo MGU-H concept for the 2022 car as this concept seems to be the most powerful and efficient to the current V6 turbo hybrid.

    The 2021 regulations also seem to favor the hiigh rake cars as opposed to the low rake cars due to the cut-out of the rear floor.
    Are you sure about 2007? And, not a year head-start?

  17. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toothlessrage* View Post
    Are you sure about 2007? And, not a year head-start?
    yep, 2007

    Montezemolo: Mercedes worked on their F1 engine since 2007
    https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02...ne-since-2007/
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  18. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    yep, 2007

    Montezemolo: Mercedes worked on their F1 engine since 2007
    https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02...ne-since-2007/
    Ferrari had plenty of time to develop the engine....1 year behind or not we did not do it as well as Merc and that is the truth.
    Forza Ferrari

  19. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Ferrari had plenty of time to develop the engine....1 year behind or not we did not do it as well as Merc and that is the truth.
    agreed. No one built an advantageous V6 turbo hybrid PU than Mercedes along with the rules and regulations during the turbo hybrid era that benefited Mercedes.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  20. #770
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    We had all the resources necessary to prepare for this kind of engine, but we did a poor job. yes, we all know (now) how merc did this since 2007, the fact is we did a poor job.
    I am not -that- worried bout 2022 and what I want to see is this car being more competitive this year, and the team making fewer mistakes than last year.
    If this happens, I call it progress.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

  21. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    In the first race, RedBull had the fastest car. Not to mention, Checo got caught with a glitch on the opening lap and started in the pits....he's also adjusting to a new car. Marko stated in an interview that Max ran with a "detuned" engine during the race because of temperature problems.

    More issue's or articles on Mercedes low rake angle for 2021........whether you believe them or not.

    Why F1's 2021 rules hurt low rake Mercedes more
    https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/lo...rules/5923746/


    Gary Anderson: Have new F1 rules hurt low-rake Mercedes?
    https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-...rake-mercedes/


    Toto Wolff Admits Mercedes F1 Can’t Fix 2021 Weakness by Copying Red Bull
    https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1...ying-red-bull/
    The first two articles are nothing but speculation based on Otmar's comments. I've read few Gary Anderson "analysis", so it will be foolish of me to take him seriously.

    And in the last article, Toto said their problems weren't "singularly" down to the rake. There were other factors that were hampering them during the pre season testing. And the real world results are quite obvious, Mercedes has fixed almost all of the pre-season problems, hence P2 and P3 in qualifying and the race win.

    And Perez starting from the back didn't hinder him, the safety car pretty much nullified any disadvantages. The fact is, Hamilton has beaten Verstappen in a head-head battle, two fastest drivers of their respective teams.

    So Tracing Point can blame the rake as much as they like. I'm quite enjoying their suffering. Like last year, they are running with an illegal car this year as well. But the floor rule has changed the game.

  22. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    The first two articles are nothing but speculation based on Otmar's comments. I've read few Gary Anderson "analysis", so it will be foolish of me to take him seriously.

    And in the last article, Toto said their problems weren't "singularly" down to the rake. There were other factors that were hampering them during the pre season testing. And the real world results are quite obvious, Mercedes has fixed almost all of the pre-season problems, hence P2 and P3 in qualifying and the race win.

    And Perez starting from the back didn't hinder him, the safety car pretty much nullified any disadvantages. The fact is, Hamilton has beaten Verstappen in a head-head battle, two fastest drivers of their respective teams.

    So Tracing Point can blame the rake as much as they like. I'm quite enjoying their suffering. Like last year, they are running with an illegal car this year as well. But the floor rule has changed the game.
    ... and indeed of their generation - one in his youth, the other in his "old age".
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  23. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    The first two articles are nothing but speculation based on Otmar's comments. I've read few Gary Anderson "analysis", so it will be foolish of me to take him seriously.

    And in the last article, Toto said their problems weren't "singularly" down to the rake. There were other factors that were hampering them during the pre season testing. And the real world results are quite obvious, Mercedes has fixed almost all of the pre-season problems, hence P2 and P3 in qualifying and the race win.

    And Perez starting from the back didn't hinder him, the safety car pretty much nullified any disadvantages. The fact is, Hamilton has beaten Verstappen in a head-head battle, two fastest drivers of their respective teams.

    So Tracing Point can blame the rake as much as they like. I'm quite enjoying their suffering. Like last year, they are running with an illegal car this year as well. But the floor rule has changed the game.
    The reason Hamilton beat Verstappen in Bahrein is strategy. Red Bull should of mirrored Mercedes on the first pit stop. They let Hamilton go on fresher tires for 2nd stint before Verstappen for about 5 laps.

    If Mercedes don t find downforce, the next race is going to be worse.

  24. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    ... and indeed of their generation - one in his youth, the other in his "old age".
    I couldn't agree more. It's not just the car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TTRSMAD View Post
    The reason Hamilton beat Verstappen in Bahrein is strategy. Red Bull should of mirrored Mercedes on the first pit stop. They let Hamilton go on fresher tires for 2nd stint before Verstappen for about 5 laps.

    If Mercedes don t find downforce, the next race is going to be worse.
    Wrong. There was nothing wrong with RB's strategy. Verstappen caught Hamilton with five laps to spare and much fresher tyres. Yes they could have done the same as Merc, emerge from the pits two seconds behind with the same tyres, and battle it out all race in each other's dirty air. Yes it could have worked, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with a strategy that lands you on the gearbox of your prey five laps before the finish with much fresher tyres. How can you possibly fault such a strategy?
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  26. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntukza View Post
    Wrong. There was nothing wrong with RB's strategy. Verstappen caught Hamilton with five laps to spare and much fresher tyres. Yes they could have done the same as Merc, emerge from the pits two seconds behind with the same tyres, and battle it out all race in each other's dirty air. Yes it could have worked, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with a strategy that lands you on the gearbox of your prey five laps before the finish with much fresher tyres. How can you possibly fault such a strategy?
    Right, Verstappen said it himself after the race track position is where it's at. Hamilton as been winning races like this for years. Why chase when you can lead and control pace. The undercut at Bahrein is very powerful and gave Hamilton a chunk of race pace that could been limited by a faster Red Bull. FACT

  27. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTRSMAD View Post
    Right, Verstappen said it himself after the race track position is where it's at. Hamilton as been winning races like this for years. Why chase when you can lead and control pace. The undercut at Bahrein is very powerful and gave Hamilton a chunk of race pace that could been limited by a faster Red Bull. FACT
    The minute LH pitted, Verstappen was guaranteed to lose the position, whether Verstappen pitted a lap later or many laps later like he did. Your suggestion that "Red Bull should have mirrored Mercedes on the first pit stop" would have still cost Verstappen track position, so again, Red Bull's strategy is not the reason LH won the race. The strategy worked. It got Verstappen exactly where the mirror option would have gotten him but with a much more favourable tyre delta.
    Last edited by ntukza; 11th April 2021 at 00:49.
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  28. #778
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    You keep forgetting that Merc had the e necessary tires (hard) to do the early pit stops. RB didn't.

  29. #779
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTRSMAD View Post
    The reason Hamilton beat Verstappen in Bahrein is strategy. Red Bull should of mirrored Mercedes on the first pit stop. They let Hamilton go on fresher tires for 2nd stint before Verstappen for about 5 laps.

    If Mercedes don t find downforce, the next race is going to be worse.
    In a team sport, one team beat the other because of better tactics/strategy, who would've thought? And such a compelling argument from your part.

    The reason Hamilton beat Verstappen because he executed the strategy that was given to him. But that was to be expected from a 7xWDC. And this's not the fast time, he had also got the better of Max in Hungary 2019, another one-one battle.

    The Mercedes has plenty of downforce as evident by it's being the fastest car in corners. But Red Bull is not that far behind and we are not to shabby either.

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    I would have liked to see Max stop sooner. He would have caught Lewis sooner and the battle would have been even more epic. Outcome may have changed, maybe not, but it would have maybe burned up tires a little quicker on both cars.

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