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Thread: 2021 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, May 07 - 09

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC Fan View Post
    He's pretty amazing but he's far from carrying the car here like he had to last year, let's be real. Mercedes has an equally good car, Hamilton is an equally good if not a better driver but Mercedes is a MUCH better team than RB ever was. That's the reason he's getting screwed over.
    Max last year scored 18pts on said track. Max scored 19pts in 2021 on the same track. So, as you say, Max is "far from carrying the car here like he had last year." Please elaborate.

    How is Max getting screwed over??
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Max last year scored 18pts on said track. Max scored 19pts in 2021 on the same track. So, as you say, Max is "far from carrying the car here like he had last year." Please elaborate.

    How is Max getting screwed over??
    He's driving a much better car as confirmed by himself, Horner, Marko, Albon and possibly everyone else on the team? He was super close to winning too, this time.

    As for why Verstappen is getting screwed, if RB didn't get baited yet again for Hungary 2019 Merc strategy and if Perez was close enough Hamilton wouldn't have attempted the Hungary 2019 strategy in the first place, he would've won the race.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC Fan View Post
    He's driving a much better car as confirmed by himself, Horner, Marko, Albon and possibly everyone else on the team? He was super close to winning too, this time.

    As for why Verstappen is getting screwed, if RB didn't get baited yet again for Hungary 2019 Merc strategy and if Perez was close enough Hamilton wouldn't have attempted the Hungary 2019 strategy in the first place, he would've won the race.
    He's is driving a much better car this year but Mercedes is on another level. Max did fine compared from last year to this year.

    Agree, on Perez coulda-shoulda-woulda been better for Max IF Perez wuuld have qualified better yesterday BUT Perez had a shoulder issue and had to see the doctors after quali.

    So again, Max's all-alone strategy against Mercedes was the only avaliable option RedBull had when it came to tire strategy. Max was a sitting duck compared to the pace of that Mercedes.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    He's is driving a much better car this year but Mercedes is on another level.

    Agree, on Perez coulda-shoulda-woulda been better for Max IF Perez wuuld have qualified better yesterday BUT Perez had a shoulder issue and had to see the doctors after quali.

    So again, Max's all-alone strategy against Mercedes was the only avaliable option RedBull had when it came to tire strategy. Max was a sitting duck compared to the pace of that Mercedes.
    I disagree with the bolded part. The Mercedes car of 2021 is a shadow of what the 2020 Merc was, when it comes to the dominance and the overall performance of the car. The RB and Mercedes are near equal IMO. The RedBull had the pace to win the 3 of the 4 races we've had so far, ON MERIT (and it has won only one so far), let's not forget that.

    I wasn't aware of Perez's injuries so apologies for that. But, assuming that hadn't happened and Perez did just as good as if he was well, say, as he did in Portimao (taking this example because Portimao's design was derived out of Barcelona, so in a way, they're really similar), RedBull would've won on merit.

    I'm not saying Verstappen's hype is undeserved but he certainly isn't anywhere near as vulnerable as he was last year.

  5. #365
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    Even Max was astonished on the team radio how good Mercs grip is. It’s not only the engine. There must be sth special with their innovative this years floor.

  6. #366
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    There is no need for arguing, that Mercedes is by HUGE margin better car in every area, and they are just dosing as much as needed when needed toying with all of us.

  7. #367
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    Beautiful car. (Super high res: 5000x3334)


  8. #368
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    100% correct that merc is really something legally or illegally.Thats the difference between merc and other teams there top brass really know how to present any grey areas of there car to the fia.They are just better than the rest better barristers at arguing there case simple.Team that up with lewis and bang another pork knuccle Sunday.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC Fan View Post
    I disagree with the bolded part. The Mercedes car of 2021 is a shadow of what the 2020 Merc was, when it comes to the dominance and the overall performance of the car. The RB and Mercedes are near equal IMO. The RedBull had the pace to win the 3 of the 4 races we've had so far, ON MERIT (and it has won only one so far), let's not forget that.

    .
    No, Max just needs a faster car to fend off the Mercedes juggernaut.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  10. #370
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    TBH, I'm surprised with Red Bull's strategy. In the past, we've always praised their strategy. But they haven't had championship pressure back then. But now their fighting for the WDC and under pressure, and making strategic mistakes.

    Hamilton would've never ever overtaken Max without huge advantage. When Hamilton pitted his tyres were 18 laps fresher than Max and it was just the advantage Hamilton needed. All Red Bull had to do was cover Hamilton.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    No, Max just needs a faster car to fend off the Mercedes juggernaut.
    I agree. Mercedes is simply a much better team. If you face them with equal cars, they're pit wall will have several tricks under their sleeves, then there's Hamilton to deal with. You need a much better car than Mercedes and maintain the development of the car to beat Mercedes.

  12. #372
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    Any way congrats to Charles and carlos great result.Charles can fight bottas and he finished in front of the 2nd red bull so that's pretty grand.Charles is special no doubt and every team principle knows this.He is the pin up guy in f1.I would be wrapped if we can get third this year, remembering ferrari had to come from the back of the mid field to where they are now in under 6 months, a remarkable turn around would be fair to say.It can take years for teams to achieve this.This is an illustration as to how big ferrari really is good job keep pushing keep the *******s honest.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    TBH, I'm surprised with Red Bull's strategy. In the past, we've always praised their strategy. But they haven't had championship pressure back then. But now their fighting for the WDC and under pressure, and making strategic mistakes.

    Hamilton would've never ever overtaken Max without huge advantage. When Hamilton pitted his tyres were 18 laps fresher than Max and it was just the advantage Hamilton needed. All Red Bull had to do was cover Hamilton.
    This was'nt a strategic mistake by RedBull.

    First and foremost, Max needed Perez as a buffer during the race....unfortunately that did'nt happen.

    Second, If RedBull mirrored Lewis, Lewis would have jumped Max during the pit strategy NOT TO MENTION, Mercedes had Bottas as back-up as a Plan B. Yes it was a mirror image of Hungary 2019.

    Either way you look at, without the absence of Perez, Mercedes would have won this race either by Lewis or Bottas.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by paolo lalli View Post
    Any way congrats to Charles and carlos great result.Charles can fight bottas and he finished in front of the 2nd red bull so that's pretty grand.Charles is special no doubt and every team principle knows this.He is the pin up guy in f1.I would be wrapped if we can get third this year, remembering ferrari had to come from the back of the mid field to where they are now in under 6 months, a remarkable turn around would be fair to say.It can take years for teams to achieve this.This is an illustration as to how big ferrari really is good job keep pushing keep the *******s honest.
    Ha ha, you've said everything I wanted to say, great job for sure given our shortage of ultimate power, car looked stable and controlled and Charles delivered, Carlos also good but wish he'd got Ricciardo, even the pit crew are improving. Not a bad day at all, beat Mclaren and I'm happy.

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicRac View Post
    That Mercedes needs to be striped down and investigated.. That car is not right
    I heard the FIA will investigate every engine more thoroughly this year. So if they discover something it should come to light then. On the other hand it's true that when Merc is chasing for the lead they miraculously seem to have amazing pace after a pitstop It might be that they work the tires better. Today I saw similar blistering patterns on both Lewis and Verstappen. Yet Hamilton just had more speed on his second stint tires compared to Verstappen. Is Mercedes illegal? I don't think so. But it's for sure more exciting this year. I bet there are many who are tired of the Hamilton and Mercedes show.

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    TBH, I'm surprised with Red Bull's strategy. In the past, we've always praised their strategy. But they haven't had championship pressure back then. But now their fighting for the WDC and under pressure, and making strategic mistakes.

    Hamilton would've never ever overtaken Max without huge advantage. When Hamilton pitted his tyres were 18 laps fresher than Max and it was just the advantage Hamilton needed. All Red Bull had to do was cover Hamilton.
    How? If Max pitted after Lewis he would have probably come out behind Lewis and Bottas. Lewis would have had the undercut plus wing man in the mix.
    Think this race was Mercs right from the start. They probably had a few different strategy options and they probably could have won with a few of them.

  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silent Bob View Post
    How? If Max pitted after Lewis he would have probably come out behind Lewis and Bottas. Lewis would have had the undercut plus wing man in the mix.
    Think this race was Mercs right from the start. They probably had a few different strategy options and they probably could have won with a few of them.
    agreed. Mercedes most always has a plan b or a plan c ahead of the race.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    agreed. Mercedes most always has a plan b or a plan c ahead of the race.
    As do most, Carlos was plan C today and Charles plan B.
    Forza Ferrari

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by paolo lalli View Post
    100% correct that merc is really something legally or illegally.Thats the difference between merc and other teams there top brass really know how to present any grey areas of there car to the fia.They are just better than the rest better barristers at arguing there case simple.Team that up with lewis and bang another pork knuccle Sunday.
    $$$$$$$$$$$$$

  20. #380
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    Pretty sure Mercedes and Red Bull garages are located side by side. Also pretty sure Red Bull pitwall saw that Mercedes crews were getting ready for second pit stop. And even if Mercedes duped them with fake pitstops it wouldn't have mattered. Max's tyres would've been 13 laps younger than Hamilton's.

    Track position is key in Spain, every one from pundits to fans to team strategists knew that. And what would you do in a circuit where track position is key? always go for the undercut and always mirror your close competitor. If they pit, you pit as well on the same lap. Letting your rival to pit for 18 laps fresh rubbers with 24 laps still remaining is a strategic blunder.

  21. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Beautiful car. (Super high res: 5000x3334)

    https://i.imgur.com/olEVDwC.jpg
    Just wondering how good our car would be with the 2019 engine...
    Probably right up there with RB and Merc.
    Chassis wise it looks like we are clearly third best.
    Can't wait for Monaco

  22. #382
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    It looks like we had better tire management

  23. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post

    Track position is key in Spain, every one from pundits to fans to team strategists knew that. And what would you do in a circuit where track position is key? always go for the undercut and always mirror your close competitor. If they pit, you pit as well on the same lap. Letting your rival to pit for 18 laps fresh rubbers with 24 laps still remaining is a strategic blunder.
    This race was against the 2 fastest cars and 1 not so fast car.

    Nothing RBR could've done. Nothing.

    Had they pitted Max before Lewis, Lewis would simply stay out and retain track position (merc was mighty on mediums). Had Max pitted a lap later, Max had lost track position instantly.

    Did you not see Lewis's pace after he pitted and gaining 1.8sec per lap and with just 10 laps to go, Lewis caught up to Max and passed him. Max knew he was in trouble when Lewis pitted and had more than 22sec lead on Lewis.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

  24. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrari1.8t View Post
    People still don’t seem to realize that no other team could get a sniff of Merc during the turbo era. Yes we got close, but let’s be realistic and understand that Merc always have more when needed. We are seeing that again this year with “Red Bull is the team to beat”, yet we all know that’s not the case. This year is mercs to win again.

    With regards to Binotto, give him a chance. With the freeze on developments, engines, restrictions etc. his hands have been tied. Only so much that he could have done. Next year is our only chance to start fresh and be competitive from the start. If Binotto fails with the regulation changes then we can talk about replacements. I am optimistic that he has been working behind the scenes quietly to give us a good shot next year.

    Forza Ferrari
    you prolly didn't watch 2019 then....when Merc and Merc engine had ABSOLUTELY NO ANSWER about our strong engine performance (let it be a loophole Ferrari found in the rules book) and Totto and Co. were their pants and started crying to the FIA.....we had a dominant engine in 2019 PERIOD.....and had it not been for Merc crying we would have been that much better in 2020 as the sf1000 was designed with the SRONG and powerful engine in mind.....

    but MAFIA again jumped in to save Merc and gift them TWO more championships.....

    boy do i love to see Ferrari come next year with a BEAST of an engine as well as beast of a car from the get go and wipe the smile off TOTTO once in for all
    Last edited by FerrariF60; 9th May 2021 at 19:28.

  25. #385
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    Once hamilton pulls out 1 race victory over max that will be it game set and 8th title to lewis.Max must finish in front of lewis next race and behind charles who wins.

  26. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by paolo lalli View Post
    Once hamilton pulls out 1 race victory over max that will be it game set and 8th title to lewis.Max must finish in front of lewis next race and behind charles who wins.
    i liek your spirit of optimism....unfortunately Max is also really good around Monaco....so me thinks that will be NO win for Charles....although its nice to dream, NO??

  27. #387
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    Take it easy guys, championship is far from over. Many races left to go and Red Bull are very close to Mercedes performance. Hamilton is going to have fight for it. Anything can happen.

    Ferrari performance was great today. The car is very much improved. This was one of are worst track last year. I hope Ferrari come out next year with an engine equal or superior to Mercedes and Red Bull.

  28. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by nani_s23 View Post
    RB should have reacted, but they didn’t. Repeat of Hungary 2019.
    I swear to god, I was yelling at RB to box Max when he was about 26s clear to Charles, only problem was Bottas would've not made easy to Pass, I knew Mercedes would play Hungary 2019 game again and they did

  29. #389
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    1 Lewis Hamilton GBR MERCEDES 94
    2 Max Verstappen NED RED BULL RACING HONDA 80
    3 Valtteri Bottas FIN MERCEDES 47
    4 Lando Norris GBR MCLAREN MERCEDES 41
    5 Charles Leclerc MON FERRARI 40
    6 Sergio Perez MEX RED BULL RACING HONDA 32
    7 Daniel Ricciardo AUS MCLAREN MERCEDES 24
    8 Carlos Sainz ESP FERRARI 20
    9 Esteban Ocon FRA ALPINE RENAULT 10
    10 Pierre Gasly FRA ALPHATAURI HONDA 8
    11 Lance Stroll CAN ASTON MARTIN MERCEDES 5
    12 Fernando Alonso ESP ALPINE RENAULT 5
    13 Yuki Tsunoda JPN ALPHATAURI HONDA 2
    14 Kimi Räikkönen FIN ALFA ROMEO RACING FERRARI 0
    15 Antonio Giovinazzi ITA ALFA ROMEO RACING FERRARI 0
    16 Sebastian Vettel GER ASTON MARTIN MERCEDES 0
    17 George Russell GBR WILLIAMS MERCEDES 0
    18 Mick Schumacher GER HAAS FERRARI 0
    19 Nicholas Latifi CAN WILLIAMS MERCEDES 0
    20 Nikita Mazepin RAF HAAS FERRARI 0










    1 MERCEDES 141
    2 RED BULL RACING HONDA 112
    3 MCLAREN MERCEDES 65
    4 FERRARI 60
    5 ALPINE RENAULT 15
    6 ALPHATAURI HONDA 10
    7 ASTON MARTIN MERCEDES 5
    8 ALFA ROMEO RACING FERRARI 0
    9 WILLIAMS MERCEDES 0
    10 HAAS FERRARI 0

  30. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    This race was against the 2 fastest cars and 1 not so fast car.

    Nothing RBR could've done. Nothing.

    Had they pitted Max before Lewis, Lewis would simply stay out and retain track position (merc was mighty on mediums). Had Max pitted a lap later, Max had lost track position instantly.

    Did you not see Lewis's pace after he pitted and gaining 1.8sec per lap and with just 10 laps to go, Lewis caught up to Max and passed him. Max knew he was in trouble when Lewis pitted and had more than 22sec lead on Lewis.
    Verstappen pitted on lap 24, Hamilton on lap 29. Verstappen's first lap on new mediums was 1:21.632, Hamilton's 1:21.276. Hamilton caught up to Max on lap 33, the gap was 1.036 seconds. When Hamilton pitted on lap 42 again, the gap was 0.916 seconds.

    So it was pretty much a stalemate between Hamilton and Verstappen, before Hamilton pitted on lap 42. Max couldn't shake off Lewis and Lewis couldn't get Max even with the DRS for 9 laps. And the more Hamilton would've stayed on the dirty air, the more he would've destroyed his tyres.

    So when Lewis pitted and re-joined the track, his tyres were 18 laps younger than Verstappen's. With new tyres Hamilton was doing low 1:20's, Max with old tyres was still doing high 1:21's to mid 1:22's, sometimes 1:23's.

    When Hamilton caught up on lap 57, Max had already done 33 laps on those mediums, compared to Hamilton's only 15 laps older tyres.

    If you still can't comprehend the advantage of having fresh rubbers, both Ricciardo and Carlos were pitted on lap 46 for softs. And on lap 48, Carlos did 1:22.095 compared to Max's 1:23.039, 0.944 seconds faster.

    Had Red Bull mirrored Mercedes and pitted him on the same lap as Hamilton, Max would've won. The advantage of having fresh tyres over worn out old tyres was substantial.

    And your 2 cars vs 1 car theory was wrong. Bottas wasn't even in a fight with Max. He was 10 seconds behind before the first pit stop and was stuck behind Charles and couldn't even attempt to overtake Charles. And before his second pit stop he was 9.8 seconds behind Max and had to let Hamilton go.
    Last edited by tifosi1993; 10th May 2021 at 09:03.

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