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Thread: Michael Schumacher vs Lewis Hamilton

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    Michael Schumacher vs Lewis Hamilton

    I have been thinking about the topic for much of 2020 as it was clear Hamilton was going to tie Schumacher with his 7th world championship. So I decided to make a video. Just wanted to share and get some opinions or feedback. The video is unlisted, no description, no links, etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXZQWqFJaFI


    Edit: Had to re-upload

    Edit 2: Re-upload again due to a copyright claim
    Last edited by SS454; 3rd January 2021 at 23:32.

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    Only 1 drove for Ferrari. Nuff said. Nice video.

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    Thanks.

    I do kinda wish it was MSC driving for Mercedes at some point between 2014 and 2020 though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Thanks.

    I do kinda wish it was MSC driving for Mercedes at some point between 2014 and 2020 though.
    Nico wrecked any hopes of hat happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    I have been thinking about the topic for much of 2020 as it was clear Hamilton was going to tie Schumacher with his 7th world championship. So I decided to make a video. Just wanted to share and get some opinions or feedback. The video is unlisted, no description, no links, etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3re91G5ZjQ


    Edit: Had to reupload
    Excellent work. #respect.

    As for my opinion and disregarding my personal preference, I do believe that taking your analysis into account as well ,Michael is the better driver.
    I don't take anything from LH , he's done plenty in his days, however, when you do compare , you need to take everything into account and truth being told , for better or worse he 's had it easier.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    Nico wrecked any hopes of hat happening.
    And here I was thinking that it was that skiing accident.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    And here I was thinking that it was that skiing accident.
    I was only thinking about F-1 and how things turned out @ Merc with regards to Nico being the better driver. The skiing accident is just too terrible for me to accept. I'd rather just talk F-1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aroutis View Post
    Excellent work. #respect.

    As for my opinion and disregarding my personal preference, I do believe that taking your analysis into account as well ,Michael is the better driver.
    I don't take anything from LH , he's done plenty in his days, however, when you do compare , you need to take everything into account and truth being told , for better or worse he 's had it easier.
    Thanks. I tried to do my best and not be biased in research and just let the data tell the story. The more I picked it apart the more obvious the answer got. I completely agree Hamilton is a great talent that has done many things, but it is possible he has had the most advantages of any F1 driver in history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Thanks. I tried to do my best and not be biased in research and just let the data tell the story. The more I picked it apart the more obvious the answer got. I completely agree Hamilton is a great talent that has done many things, but it is possible he has had the most advantages of any F1 driver in history.
    One of the biggest advantage of any driver in F-1 history is having your contract guarantee you to be the team's #1 driver and your team mate has to move over or give up his seat. In Louis' case his team mate is right up there with Max trying to take out Louis as #1. If a driver is truly a great, he should have to race to truly win , no extra's like move over should be included. At the time there were a few top drivers who refused the seat @ Ferrari just because of that clause that would be against them. Who knows who would have been the better if they in fact signed up? 2020 car wise Louis has a lot to do with his ride being #1, with all the input to the team as far as what's up with the car. The drivers are the main testers of what the car needs .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brembo View Post
    One of the biggest advantage of any driver in F-1 history is having your contract guarantee you to be the team's #1 driver and your team mate has to move over or give up his seat. In Louis' case his team mate is right up there with Max trying to take out Louis as #1. If a driver is truly a great, he should have to race to truly win , no extra's like move over should be included. At the time there were a few top drivers who refused the seat @ Ferrari just because of that clause that would be against them. Who knows who would have been the better if they in fact signed up? 2020 car wise Louis has a lot to do with his ride being #1, with all the input to the team as far as what's up with the car. The drivers are the main testers of what the car needs .
    All the great drivers put themselves in a spot to be #1 and get the advantages that go with it. Alonso is particularly stubborn about having things his way or he loses his mind.

    From a team standpoint, it makes sense to develop the car around the best driver for the best chances of winning. Ricciardo did very well against Max, and since he left RBR put all their eggs in the Max basket and no other teammate has come close.

    It's why I had to mention "favoritism" as a factor to Michael and Lewis' success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    All the great drivers put themselves in a spot to be #1 and get the advantages that go with it. Alonso is particularly stubborn about having things his way or he loses his mind.

    From a team standpoint, it makes sense to develop the car around the best driver for the best chances of winning. Ricciardo did very well against Max, and since he left RBR put all their eggs in the Max basket and no other teammate has come close.

    It's why I had to mention "favoritism" as a factor to Michael and Lewis' success.
    Very true, Alonso was stubborn about how he wanted his car; come race time; not his contract to be #1 in writing. Max also is on top through his driving, Dan was allowed but just couldn't keep up with him. Merc as you say has developed their top car around their top driver's car input. Drivers will have to really do their best to reach future wins in the 100 s.

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    Who is Jacques Villennouu? A tough debate. Both Drivers have 7 Driver Titles, (then
    Lewis may get an 8th this Season). Both Drivers had various rivals to face through their careers. Michael came up against Jacques Villneuve, Mika Hakkenhein, who Michael rated as the best driver that he raced against. Then there was Montoya which Michael saw off. Lewis has had rivalry in Seb Vettel and Max.
    I think Michael started off at Ferrari and Mercedes with not the best of cars. Michael helped to build up Ferrari with his Testing input of the car. Another factor in Michael's work at the two Teams is Ross Brawn. Both of them were factors in Ferrari's dominance.
    When Lewis started at McLaren and Mercedes, I think they were OK cars. It seems as if he was at the Teams, at the start of there rises. It seemed like Michael was doing the ground work at Mercedes, then Lewis says, 'i'll have that car'.
    You can't question Lewis's achievement in F1 if he Wins an 8th Drivers Title. As someone mentioned in a previous Post, it seems as if he has had it easier.
    So I think that the Best Driver is Jacques Villennouu. No, sorry, I meant Michael Schumacher.
    The good times WILL return, and FERever.

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    I've been watching the comments and dislikes on Youtube. Man the Lewis haters and Senna fanboys are so triggered when you bring facts to the table. And it was never about Senna, just a Lewis vs Hamilton comparo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Williams F1 Fan View Post
    Michael came up against Jacques Villneuve, Mika Hakkenhein, who Michael rated as the best driver that he raced against. Then there was Montoya which Michael saw off. Lewis has had rivalry in Seb Vettel and Max.
    Alonso in 2005 and 2006???

    Quote Originally Posted by Williams F1 Fan View Post
    I think Michael started off at Ferrari and Mercedes with not the best of cars. Michael helped to build up Ferrari with his Testing input of the car. Another factor in Michael's work at the two Teams is Ross Brawn. Both of them were factors in Ferrari's dominance.
    Michael and team started off at Benetton-->then Ferrari--->BrawnGP-->MercedesAMGF1. Lewis is enjoying the foundations of what was started years ago.

    The team that Michael brought consisted of Ross Brawn, which you mentioned, Jean Todt, Rory Byrne. When Michael went to Mercedes, he helped Toto build the championship winning cars that Lewis, along with Nico, have won a WDC title or multiple titles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Williams F1 Fan View Post
    When Lewis started at McLaren and Mercedes, I think they were OK cars. It seems as if he was at the Teams, at the start of there rises. It seemed like Michael was doing the ground work at Mercedes, then Lewis says, 'i'll have that car'.
    True but the turbo hybrid era was a totally different animal that MercedesAMGF1 jumped on to and dominated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Williams F1 Fan View Post
    You can't question Lewis's achievement in F1 if he Wins an 8th Drivers Title. As someone mentioned in a previous Post, it seems as if he has had it easier.
    So I think that the Best Driver is Jacques Villennouu. No, sorry, I meant Michael Schumacher.
    2 different era's regarding Michael Schumacher and Lewis Hamilton.

    Michael and team made Ferrari into a dominat force along with unlimited testing.

    Lewis did'nt make MercedesAMGF1. MercedesAMGF1 made Lewis into a multiple WDC title contender. Lewis did extremely well signing with MercedesAMGF1. BTW, Lewis dislikes to practice or test.
    It's not how start but how you finish.

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    I'm getting tired of this comparison, different eras and Michael never had such a dominant car in absolute terms, his tactics may sometimes have been dubious but his championships were a result of a long, hard graft to get a car capable of delivering what he needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    The team that Michael brought consisted of Ross Brawn, which you mentioned, Jean Todt, Rory Byrne.
    Todt brought Michael, not the other way round
    Forza Ferrari

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    Oh yes, forgot all about Fernando Alonso and Renault in 2005 and 2006. That Renault was strong in those two years with Alonso. Believe that Flavio Briatorie was Team manager? That Mild Seven Renault looked pretty awesome.
    Backs up my opinion that Michael Schumacher is better. He has had more competition to face.
    The good times WILL return, and FERever.

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    [QUOTE=jgonzalesm6;1043005]Alonso in 2005 and 2006???

    BTW, Lewis dislikes to practice or test.[/QUOTE
    I can't even imagine how many more wins poles and WDCs Sir Lewis would now have and continue winning if he decided to practice and test more than he now does.

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    If Michael had a totally dominating car for as long as goldenboy has, he would have been a 12x WDC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redfive View Post
    If Michael had a totally dominating car for as long as goldenboy has, he would have been a 12x WDC.
    Since the dawn of the hybrid era, Mercedes have had the fastest car bar none. Their dominance varied season by season but it was always the fastest car.

    HAM is without doubt a 'great' - in the top five of all time - but it is easier when you have had the fastest car since 2014. He only failed to win the WDC once, when beaten by his team mate - 'One Hit' Nico!
    Angry. Always.

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    [QUOTE=Brembo;1043020]
    Quote Originally Posted by jgonzalesm6 View Post
    Alonso in 2005 and 2006???

    BTW, Lewis dislikes to practice or test.[/QUOTE
    I can't even imagine how many more wins poles and WDCs Sir Lewis would now have and continue winning if he decided to practice and test more than he now does.
    Ifs and buts get you nowhere. Lewis has a dominant car for the better of 7 years. Fact. Lewis has the favor of FIA.
    Fact. Lewis has the numbers because of the aforementioned facts.
    There you go.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Singer View Post
    Since the dawn of the hybrid era, Mercedes have had the fastest car bar none. Their dominance varied season by season but it was always the fastest car.

    HAM is without doubt a 'great' - in the top five of all time - but it is easier when you have had the fastest car since 2014. He only failed to win the WDC once, when beaten by his team mate - 'One Hit' Nico!
    Lewis has been proven to have issues under pressure; actually so has Mercedes.
    Which is paramount to have teams to exert pressure to them over and over to them.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Both Schumacher and Hamilton can be regarded as the best of this sport. Some people may include Senna, But I disagree on that notion. Prost is, was and always will be better than Senna. He had the better of him when they were teammates and he wasn't a dirty racer.

    And speaking of dirty racers, what separates Schumacher from Hamilton is their on track antics. Hamilton may act like a brat under pressure or throws toys out of pram when things don't get his way. But he wasn't as ruthless or dangerous as Schumacher was Schumacher's career is filled with dangerous and questionable driving. He got excluded from a Championship by his own doings, he put other drivers in danger on plenty of occasions, he deliberately stopped his car in Monaco to deny Alonso the pole. And there are plenty of other examples that I've excluded.

    Hamilton's career on the other hand is sparklingly clean compared to Schumacher's. The only dreg on this career is the lie-gate, when he was instructed/ordered by Mclaren to lie. But I don't think Hamilton has had ever put another driver's life in danger deliberately, like Schumacher used to. Also Hamilton's previous teammates never complained about his driving antics, unlike Schumacher's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Both Schumacher and Hamilton can be regarded as the best of this sport. Some people may include Senna, But I disagree on that notion. Prost is, was and always will be better than Senna. He had the better of him when they were teammates and he wasn't a dirty racer.

    And speaking of dirty racers, what separates Schumacher from Hamilton is their on track antics. Hamilton may act like a brat under pressure or throws toys out of pram when things don't get his way. But he wasn't as ruthless or dangerous as Schumacher was Schumacher's career is filled with dangerous and questionable driving. He got excluded from a Championship by his own doings, he put other drivers in danger on plenty of occasions, he deliberately stopped his car in Monaco to deny Alonso the pole. And there are plenty of other examples that I've excluded.

    Hamilton's career on the other hand is sparklingly clean compared to Schumacher's. The only dreg on this career is the lie-gate, when he was instructed/ordered by Mclaren to lie. But I don't think Hamilton has had ever put another driver's life in danger deliberately, like Schumacher used to. Also Hamilton's previous teammates never complained about his driving antics, unlike Schumacher's.
    There's an element of truth in what you say, tifosi, but I do recall occasions in 2008 when he was duelling with Felipe for the WDC and there were some not quite safe lunges, notably Singapore and Valencia, I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Both Schumacher and Hamilton can be regarded as the best of this sport. Some people may include Senna, But I disagree on that notion. Prost is, was and always will be better than Senna. He had the better of him when they were teammates and he wasn't a dirty racer.

    And speaking of dirty racers, what separates Schumacher from Hamilton is their on track antics. Hamilton may act like a brat under pressure or throws toys out of pram when things don't get his way. But he wasn't as ruthless or dangerous as Schumacher was Schumacher's career is filled with dangerous and questionable driving. He got excluded from a Championship by his own doings, he put other drivers in danger on plenty of occasions, he deliberately stopped his car in Monaco to deny Alonso the pole. And there are plenty of other examples that I've excluded.

    Hamilton's career on the other hand is sparklingly clean compared to Schumacher's. The only dreg on this career is the lie-gate, when he was instructed/ordered by Mclaren to lie. But I don't think Hamilton has had ever put another driver's life in danger deliberately, like Schumacher used to. Also Hamilton's previous teammates never complained about his driving antics, unlike Schumacher's.
    Every great driver has some questionable moments, even Lewis. 2008 he had several altercations with Massa. 2016 he deliberately slowed his pace to ruin his team mates race in order to win the WDC, despite the team telling him not to. He's had several collisions with team mates, of course sharing blame.

    Schumacher has definitely done had worse moments. He was as ruthless as it gets on track.

    Off track, Hamilton has a much worse lowlight collection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Every great driver has some questionable moments, even Lewis. 2008 he had several altercations with Massa. 2016 he deliberately slowed his pace to ruin his team mates race in order to win the WDC, despite the team telling him not to. He's had several collisions with team mates, of course sharing blame.

    Schumacher has definitely done had worse moments. He was as ruthless as it gets on track.

    Off track, Hamilton has a much worse lowlight collection.
    Exactly.
    And it's weird that people seem to believe that Hamilton is "sparkling clean" when of course, he 's not.
    "If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS454 View Post
    Every great driver has some questionable moments, even Lewis. 2008 he had several altercations with Massa. 2016 he deliberately slowed his pace to ruin his team mates race in order to win the WDC, despite the team telling him not to. He's had several collisions with team mates, of course sharing blame.

    Schumacher has definitely done had worse moments. He was as ruthless as it gets on track.

    Off track, Hamilton has a much worse lowlight collection.
    2008 was a hard fought fight between Massa and Hamilton. But I can't remember any incidents where Hamilton tried to take out Massa. Pair of them fought hard on track but kept it clean. Maybe you can provide examples of those "several altercations" between Massa and Hamilton.

    Abu Dhabi 2016, tell me, which driver wouldn't do the same? But again Hamilton kept it clean. He didn't initiate any break testing or tried to put Rosberg on the wall, as Schumacher did throughout his career even when not involved in a WDC fight.

    Schumacher wasn't just ruthless, he was downright dangerous and had no problem going beyond the acceptable level of wheel-wheel racing. He took people out, he put other drivers in dangerous situations willingly. I can't remember any instances where Hamilton willingly and knowing tried to take his rivals out.

    So yeah, as I've said, compared to Schumacher, Hamilton's career is sparklingly clean. Schumacher was a dangerous driver who hardly cared about anything. Hamilton is a hard racer, but he's pretty much always fair and doesn't force people on the wall, or brake test them or try to take them out etc. etc.

    What I've said is pure and simple facts backed up by plenty of evidences. I don't care if Schumacher fans getting their feelings hurt. Just because he drove for Ferrari it doesn't mean we should keep our eyes shut and ignore all those dirty and dangerous driving antics of Schumacher's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wisepie View Post
    There's an element of truth in what you say, tifosi, but I do recall occasions in 2008 when he was duelling with Felipe for the WDC and there were some not quite safe lunges, notably Singapore and Valencia, I believe.
    Lunging on the inside under braking is one thing, but taking out someone willingly is completely different. Hamilton never tried to take Massa out, that's my point. Remember Hungary 2008 when Massa drove outside of Hamilton and passed him? If it was Schumacher he would've forced Massa on to the grass.

    Hamilton had won 7 titles and now fighting for his 8th. But unlike Schumacher, Hamilton's on track racing record is pretty much clean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tifosi1993 View Post
    Lunging on the inside under braking is one thing, but taking out someone willingly is completely different. Hamilton never tried to take Massa out, that's my point. Remember Hungary 2008 when Massa drove outside of Hamilton and passed him? If it was Schumacher he would've forced Massa on to the grass.

    Hamilton had won 7 titles and now fighting for his 8th. But unlike Schumacher, Hamilton's on track racing record is pretty much clean.
    I still maintain that HAM hasn't been completely clean in combat, especially in his earlier F1 career, but yes, he hasn't actually forced another driver off the track willingly. And anyway, I reiterate my belief that Felipe was the deserving 2008 WDC, and for me always will be! OK, so he was in red, but do I care?!

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    @tifosi1993

    Hamilton has pushed drivers onto the grass before. He's had plenty of "brain farts" that caused accidents.

    Schumacher's incidents are high profile because they were over the championship. His most dangerous action was what he did to Barrichello at Hungary. The crash in 1994 vs Hill, and Jerez 1997 certainly appear to be deliberate, but I don't think they are more dangerous than a lot of other incidents by other drivers. All these brake checks you speak of, when were they? Also the 1997 incident nobody ever talks about the fact JV didn't even try to turn into the corner, he was going straight passed the apex.

    What about Verstappen cutting people off at 200 mph and swerving all over? If Kimi didn't back off in Spa, it would have been a terribly dangerous.

    Alonso vs Hamilton in Qual 2007, very dirty tactic.

    Vettel Multi 21 vs Webber? Vettel thumping his car into Hamilton at Baku?

    Rosberg deliberate crash into Lewis at Austria? Rosberg putting Hamilton into the grass at Spain 2016 and Lewis not backing out, instead going for it in the grass?

    Senna/Prost at Japan x2?


    You can continue the Schumacher bash all you want, you aren't convincing anyone he has moments of being a dirty driver because everyone already knows it. The point is all the great drivers have moments.

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