2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Race Thread

[Greig]

Look at Red Bull and Renault overall, not just F1.

[RossTheBoss]

Look at Red Bull and Renault overall, not just F1.

What about them?

Renault haven't won an engine title since 2013 and only one as a full constructor twice, ever. Red Bull dropped them for a reason.

How about looking at the amazing Ferrari's GT programs do around the well, and in WEC and the 24 hours. Gee, it's almost like when competent people are in charge of Ferrari's racing divisions, the cars actually win. Maybe, juuuuust maybe it's management that's the problem, and has been the problem.

[nani_s23]

France gp was the best performance of our cars so far in this season. Remember, Verstappen chased Leclerc with DRS for 15 laps but he wasn't able to pass through Leclerc in these straights.

for this, I blame the new regulations which brought for mercedes, more than upgrades we brought.

Mattia said he would protest & we have Veto too. If something against sporting Reg, we have authority to raise with a protest. He spoke all these things & end of the day we agreed to the change.

Now Mercs are slowly climbing up by pulling us down. This is called incompetent leadership.

[nani_s23]

Binotto: "We have to understand if these balance issues are the result of setup choices, or if they are the result of the latest developments. It is not the TD itself that is causing us problems, its effects are negligible."
Binotto: "In Zandvoort we have experienced a situation very similar to Budapest where the TD was not there yet. Regardless of the tyres we used we were not quick."
The latest significant Ferrari upgrade package was introduced in France (new floor) [..] A day with an unexpected error by Charles. Maybe the car has become more nervous, less easy to setup. Since that day, the F1-75 has become a "tyre-eating" car.
Another theory is linked to reliability: to avoid further breakdowns, more cautious engine mappings & solutions (while waiting for the real solution ready for the 2023 car) would have been used, which might have had an influence of the general balance of the F1-75.
Sainz‘s floor was slightly damaged after his contact with Hamilton, hence the slower pace. Carlos is set for a PU penalty in Monza, Ferrari said they will try to limit the number of penalties. So perhaps they will only change to the new hybrid part components.

[nani_s23]

@nani_23.
I believe the car is fast but (for whatever the reason) we setup for faster quali instead of faster race pace.
We should be opting for the latter.
Also, maybe this is not so much for the aero, as much for the engine to look for as well.

Nope. We always tend to focus on Quali. It’s been the same since 2017 to till date.
Race pace, we don’t have it. Because our tyres won’t last longer whether it’s due to set up or suspension or I’m not sure (not a technical expert in that area).

The day when we can do fastest laps with used tyres on any track, I will say Ferrari is back.

Points are given on Sunday not Saturday. You need to have better race car then you will have multiple strategies in your queue to play with.

[RossTheBoss]

Not sure how the pit wall is to blame for the tyre deg. I would be asking why the engineers in the factory have not come up with a solution firstly....

Some fans clearly got carried away with our start to the season, in reality Red Bull have been pretty much quicker than us or as quick the whole season, we just had some good fortune early on. People also seem to forget where Ferrari was the previous seasons, we are improving and it's not very often you improve over night in F1, Red Bull who are hailed as something to aspire too by some on here did not do it over night.

The Schumacher era is a blip in Ferrari's history and it clearly still spoils some fans with some kind of sense of entitlement. Ferrari are not mega rich like Red Bull and Merc even Renault, we have no divine right to win season after season, and the sooner some fans come to terms with that the better it will be for them.

What are you even talking about?

Ferrari are among the wealthiest teams. They could outspend Red Bull anytime they wanted to.

[Greig]

What are you even talking about?

Ferrari are among the wealthiest teams. They could outspend Red Bull anytime they wanted to.

Might wanna get on google and check that out.....Red Bull remember, not just F1.

[RossTheBoss]

Nope. We always tend to focus on Quali. It’s been the same since 2017 to till date.
Race pace, we don’t have it. Because our tyres won’t last longer whether it’s due to set up or suspension or I’m not sure (not a technical expert in that area).

The day when we can do fastest laps with used tyres on any track, I will say Ferrari is back.

Points are given on Sunday not Saturday. You need to have better race car then you will have multiple strategies in your queue to play with.

It comes down to drag.

Red Bull have only a little less downforce than Ferrari, but way less drag. This gives them a wider setup window for races vs qualifying.

Newey had to learn this lesson himself last year, as Mercedes ate the Red Bull up on the straight on high speed tracks where aero efficiency is key. It's why Newey flipped his approach around, and Ferrari will have to do the same if they want to win, as there are more high speed tracks than not.

When Ferrari have top speed advantage and are within 2-3 tenths of the top of the timesheets is when they'll be back.

[RossTheBoss]

Might wanna get on google and check that out.....Red Bull remember, not just F1.

You are incredibly unserious and stretching for anything to defend Binotto's clown posse.

Ferrari isn't just F1 either, but go on.

[Greig]

You are incredibly unserious and stretching for anything to defend Binotto's clown posse.

Ferrari isn't just F1 either, but go on.

Did you google it yet? I never said Ferrari was just F1 did I? Ferrari can outspend Red Bull is your claim....

You are blaming the pitwall for tyre deg for goodness sake!

[RossTheBoss]

Did you google it yet? I never said Ferrari was just F1 did I? Ferrari can outspend Red Bull is your claim....

You are blaming the pitwall for tyre deg for goodness sake!

No, because I'm aware that Red Bull makes an extra billion in revenue. Of course, that wasn't the case during the Vettel era.

You're the one making the assertion that money is the problem. That Red Bull and Renault (lol) are outspending Ferrari. It's utterly absurd. Apparently, you're unaware that companies have investors and executives (like Elkaan) that ultimately decide how much money can be spent on a racing program, and it various from company to company how much will be given to the race team. Porsche make 6x the revenue of Ferrari, but could barely justify spending a $100 million on their WEC program, and are having to beg Red Bull for a partnership.

Do you have any idea how the politics and company culture of each organization is vastly different? Try using Google yourself.

[Greig]

No, because I'm aware that Red Bull makes an extra billion in revenue. Of course, that wasn't the case during the Vettel era.

You're the one proposing the idiotic assertion that money is the problem. That Red Bull and Renault (lol) are outspending Ferrari. Apparently, you're unaware that companies have investors and executives (like Elkaan) that ultimately decide how much money can be spent on a racing program. Porsche make 6x the revenue of Ferrari, but could barely justify spending a $100 million on their WEC program, and are having to beg Red Bull for a partnership.

Do you have any idea how the politics and company culture of each organization is vastly different? Try using Google yourself.

So Ferrari can't outspend Red Bull anytime they want as you claimed? I never said money was the problem you leapt to that all by yourself, try reading what it written not what you think.

Ferrari are not winning a title this year, probably won't next year either the sooner you come to terms with Ferrari are not actually that good in F1 the better it will be for you. Acting like a spoilt kid after every GP is not going to change the fortunes of the team.

[RossTheBoss]

So Ferrari can't outspend Red Bull anytime they want as you claimed? I never said money was the problem you leapt to that all by yourself, try reading what it written not what you think.

Ferrari are not winning a title this year, probably won't next year either the sooner you come to terms with Ferrari are not actually that good in F1 the better it will be for you. Acting like a spoilt kid after every GP is not going to change the fortunes of the team.

Actually, I've come to terms with this sad outlook: Ferrari will likely never win another F1 title. Incompetent leadership is not going away anytime soon. Elkaan and Binotto will continue to have their clown posse praised by apologists like yourself for years to come, as the Benny Hill skit that are their races continue. Ferrari are now a legacy F1 team that occasionally wins races like Williams and McLaren, and soon even the wins might become even more elusive.

When Leclerc goes to Mercedes, you can't say nobody here saw it coming.

[Greig]

Actually, I've come to terms with this sad outlook: Ferrari will likely never win another F1 title. Incompetent leadership is not going away anytime soon. Elkaan and Binotto will continue to have their clown posse praised by apologists like yourself for years to come, as the Benny Hill skit that are their races continue. Ferrari are now a legacy F1 team that occasionally wins races like Williams and McLaren, and soon even the wins might become even more elusive.

When Leclerc goes to Mercedes, you can't say nobody here saw it coming.

Can you show where I have praised them? no didn't think so. Again stop thinking what I said and please read what I have said.

Drivers come and go I accept that as part of supporting a team.

[nani_s23]

Not sure how the pit wall is to blame for the tyre deg. I would be asking why the engineers in the factory have not come up with a solution firstly....

Some fans clearly got carried away with our start to the season, in reality Red Bull have been pretty much quicker than us or as quick the whole season, we just had some good fortune early on. People also seem to forget where Ferrari was the previous seasons, we are improving and it's not very often you improve over night in F1, Red Bull who are hailed as something to aspire too by some on here did not do it over night.

The Schumacher era is a blip in Ferrari's history and it clearly still spoils some fans with some kind of sense of entitlement. Ferrari are not mega rich like Red Bull and Merc even Renault, we have no divine right to win season after season, and the sooner some fans come to terms with that the better it will be for them.

Alonso era/ Vettel era/ now Charles era…. Still we haven’t built championship winning car. Nobody is asking to come up with a strong car overnight.

We have given away 2 years to get head start on 2022 Reg & now we are 3rd fastest car? Whom to blame?
We fans? Or incompetent leadership.

Fans have every right to have the expectations, if it’s failure. We turn our page & wait for next year. It’s going on & on. But result is the same.

Still we are ferrari fans. Drivers are coming in & going, we aren’t getting desired results. That’s the problem.

[RossTheBoss]

Can you show where I have praised them? no didn't think so. Again stop thinking what I said and please read what I have said.

Drivers come and go I accept that as part of supporting a team.

Do you know why some of us praise Red Bull and even Mercedes? Because we can acknowledge they've taken Ferrari and McLaren's place as the best of F1. They come up with all the new ideas, pushing to find an advantage that's just barely within the rules. They never rest at trying to be better, even when they're leading and ahead of the competition. They're ruthless and play for keeps. They'd sell their mothers out for a technical ruling in their favor, and I respect them for it.

[nani_s23]

It comes down to drag.

Red Bull have only a little less downforce than Ferrari, but way less drag. This gives them a wider setup window for races vs qualifying.

Newey had to learn this lesson himself last year, as Mercedes ate the Red Bull up on the straight on high speed tracks where aero efficiency is key. It's why Newey flipped his approach around, and Ferrari will have to do the same if they want to win, as there are more high speed tracks than not.

When Ferrari have top speed advantage and are within 2-3 tenths of the top of the timesheets is when they'll be back.

Newey is expert in ground effect cars. RB is benefitting from it now as current regs are the same.

[RossTheBoss]

Alonso era/ Vettel era/ now Charles era…. Still we haven’t built championship winning car. Nobody is asking to come up with a strong car overnight.

We have given away 2 years to get head start on 2022 Reg & now we are 3rd fastest car? Whom to blame?
We fans? Or incompetent leadership.

Fans have every right to have the expectations, if it’s failure. We turn our page & wait for next year. It’s going on & on. But result is the same.

Still we are ferrari fans. Drivers are coming in & going, we aren’t getting desired results. That’s the problem.

There's a saying that what makes a fantasy and a goal different is a coherent plan and deadline.

Ferrari have been saying "next year" for over a decade.

[Greig]

Do you know why some of us praise Red Bull and even Mercedes? Because we can acknowledge they've taken Ferrari and McLaren's place as the best of F1. They come up with all the new ideas, pushing to find an advantage that's just barely within the rules. They never rest at trying to be better, even when they're leading and ahead of the competition. They're ruthless and play for keeps. They'd sell their mothers out for a technical ruling in their favor, and I respect them for it.

Well done to you, still does not answer where I am praising Ferrari though?

So you think Ferrari's design this year is not something new and unique to try and find an advantage? But praise the Merc approach which has them in 3rd from being WCC winners last season?

[RossTheBoss]

Newey is expert in ground effect cars. RB is benefitting from it now as current regs are the same.

This.

Newey is a machine. If you're not going to high Byrne, then you're going to need a massive team of engineers and aerodynamists to compete against him, working around the clock, bringing constant modifications to find the sweet spot against him.

And before someone brings up the budget: it's on Binotto to either file a formal complaint with the FIA for an audit of teams he suspects are cheating it, or shut up and ignore the budget cap as unenforceable as they do.

[Greig]

There's a saying that what makes a fantasy and a goal different is a coherent plan and deadline.

Ferrari have been saying "next year" for over a decade.

Ferrari have never said such things, only fans.

[RossTheBoss]

Well done to you, still does not answer where I am praising Ferrari though?

So you think Ferrari's design this year is not something new and unique to try and find an advantage? But praise the Merc approach which has them in 3rd from being WCC winners last season?

Are you really this obtuse? Mercedes just came off an era of massive dominance, and Red Bull looks to be beginning one. If you can't acknowledge that, I can't help you.

[Greig]

This.

Newey is a machine. If you're not going to high Byrne, then you're going to need a massive team of engineers and aerodynamists to compete against him, working around the clock, bringing constant modifications to find the sweet spot against him.

And before someone brings up the budget: it's on Binotto to either file a formal complaint with the FIA for an audit of teams he suspects are cheating it, or shut up and ignore the budget cap as unenforceable as they do.

Binotto can do no such thing until the end of the season and the figures are in.

[RossTheBoss]

Ferrari have never said such things, only fans.

Blah blah, same old thing.

What are Ferrari out there for if not to win titles? To be like Williams and putter around at the back? Is it all just about the franchise money for you now? I guess so.

[Greig]

Are you really this obtuse? Mercedes just came off an era of massive dominance, and Red Bull looks to be beginning one. If you can't acknowledge that, I can't help you.

Your twisting yourself up here, have Ferrari designed a car unique and new? You think they have not pushed on from previous seasons? really.....but you are full of praise for Merc who are behind us....ok then.

Did I not just say we probably wont be winning a title next year also? is that not acknowledging it for you?

[Greig]

Blah blah, same old thing.

What are Ferrari out there for if not to win titles? To be like Williams and putter around at the back? Is it all just about the franchise money for you now? I guess so.

Franchise money? ah you think this is the NFL or something?

Can you show me where Ferrari have said next year we win titles?

[RossTheBoss]

Binotto can do no such thing until the end of the season and the figures are in.

He can absolutely file a complaint with the FIA now on what he suspect Mercedes and Red Bull have spent as opposed to Ferrari, and demand an outside audit for transparency.

If you're going to accuse people of cheating, do it, or don't say anything.

[Greig]

He can absolutely file a complaint with the FIA now on what he suspect Mercedes and Red Bull have spent as opposed to Ferrari, and demand an outside audit for transparency.

If you're going to accuse people of cheating, do it, or don't say anything.

How can he do such a thing when he has no idea what they are claiming to have spent?

[RossTheBoss]

How can he do such a thing when he has no idea what they are claiming to have spent?

OMG.

It's called a budget cap. All the teams should be around the same in their budgets right now, but one can see it's only Mercedes who bring parts almost every week, and Red Bull are also way more frequent than Ferrari. It really isn't hard to grasp that they have to be spending more than everybody else.

[Greig]

OMG.

It's called a budget cap. All the teams should be around the same in their budgets right now, but one can see it's only Mercedes who bring parts almost every week, and Red Bull are also way more frequent than Ferrari. It really isn't hard to grasp that they have to be spending more than everybody else.

No not all teams will be the same, it's a cap not a target.

Until we know what they claim to have spent there is nothing we can do about it.