2023 Spanish Grand Prix - Race Thread

[paolo lalli]

Gotta love Freddo vassuer the eternal optimist can not see a hopeless army at war in the middle of gunfire.Freddo your army is dads army and the fight is lost.Read Freddos optimistic posts they are laughable just like a French comedy show.There is so much difference in opinions between drivers and TP this does not bode well obviously ferrari do not listen and drastic change they can not except or begin to understand the concept. Williams Number 2 is happening right before our eyes sad but true.The Roman army destroyed from within ferrari is being destroyed from within and no cure in sight.

[nani_s23]

Max had the slower car in 2021 and won.. His raw speed and talent earned him his promotion from.Torro Rosso to Red Bull. 2020 and 2021is gone, Le Clerc is not doing the business right now. That's why he is 16 points behind Carlos in the championship. The Ferrari car is not great but the drivers are not scoring the maximum points that is capable of

RB 2021 is a slower car? Are you serious? It was a match for Mercs, hence Max with his potential was able to pull off that too in the last race with help from SC.

Charles got promotion from Alfa due to his strong performance in quali & race points finish. Leclerc is doing the maximum of what he can. Some of the call it as overdriving, I call it as extracting everything out of the car.

Regarding 16 points behind …. He had 2 penalties in 2 races, 1DNF due to reliability, 1 no point score (today) due to mechanical issue in the car. 4 races he was not in points due to no fault of his own.

[jgonzalesm6]

Max had the slower car in 2021 and won.. His raw speed and talent earned him his promotion from.Torro Rosso to Red Bull. 2020 and 2021is gone, Le Clerc is not doing the business right now. That's why he is 16 points behind Carlos in the championship. The Ferrari car is not great but the drivers are not scoring the maximum points that is capable of

So in 2021:

Max won 9 races vs Lewis winning 8 races for the season.

IF Lewis and Max collided at Abu Dhabi taking each other out, Max would have won the championship due to the # of wins.


So please explain to me how Max "had the slower car?"

[Kyss4k]

By the way, we are basically the only team in the field who still struggles with porpoising. Sainz admited that we have it during his post race interview.

[TTRSMAD]

If I was a Ferrari engineer, I would propose to my bosses to make the other racing department to use past F1 cars to implement the latest development on floor concept and test track it at Fiorano until I would not need the wings on the car to make

the car stick to the track. I can you compete with a guy like Newey which did is thesis on floor aerodynamics and worked on so many winning cars. Ferrari needs to find ways to catch up and find ways to innovate without using computers which can be

hit or miss. They need real life testing or someone like Newey.

[paolo lalli]

Ferrari had newey and horner on board and at the 24 hour mark there minds were won over again by redbull costing redbull millions in the process.So close it would have been the scoop of a lifetime with many red bull staff following the magnificent two, is ferrari in crisis you better believe it there is no sugar coating the situation and no amount of vasseur spin will convince me or the tiffosi of any thing different at maranello the blind are leading the blind.The italian media will surely be roasting and lambasting ferrari day in and day out the pressure must be intense.

[Silent Bob]

The more I think about it, the more it seems that they are not listening to feedbacks the drivers are giving. Both of them kept on complaining about tyre window and how the car behaves differently with the same compound during different race stints. But then Fred is coming up with his ridiculous statement like the car being good in quali means there is "performance" in this car and they need to unlock it.

The problem is mechanical, not aero. The suspension dictates how the car is going to behave over the bumps and how the tyres would connect with the track surface. Mercedes brought a new front suspension and look how it transformed their race pace.
Downwash or inwash sidepods are not the key to unlocking performance. It's the suspension and the floor.

That's why I was upset when they only brought aero upgrades. The problem is mechanical yet the kept on focussing on the aero. They need to redesign the suspension and bring it on track as soon as possible.

Not sure its.mechanical. a suspension wouldn't make the car so unstable lap to lap like the drivers are saying. Last year we had very good tire deg before rd39. That wracked our aero and our ability to use the tires properly. Still think it's an.aero imbalance issue mostly but suspension is being used to try to mitigate it. Unless.they can use variable rate suspensions, they need to get a consistent level of downfirce from the floor at all speeds and especially when in yaw through faster turns.
Hopefully these upgrades bring some stability and they can find a setup that works.

[killer]

By the way, we are basically the only team in the field who still struggles with porpoising. Sainz admited that we have it during his post race interview.

More suspension that aero I think?

At any rate, THIS IS INSANE. We had a very good car at the beginning of '22. Surely the loss in performance isn't down to just TD39 and its after-effects.

Get the sports car division to have a look at how the F1 team runs; they seem to better know what they are doing.

Someone said Ferrari appears to not hate losing, I think it's worse: they don't care.

[paolo lalli]

Well said they just don't care and at the same time hurting the sport in general TV numbers down crowd numbers down.This can't go on at ferrari f1 something big is going to go down sooner rather than later watch this space. The sports car division are all over it doing very well indeed. Why would ferrari really care about f1,when it's there sports car division are racking in the billions of dollars in company and share value record sales etc etc,you do not sell many f1 cars to the global consumer.

[Nick Singer]

Ferrari is already the second McLaren so it’s not unlikely.

And how sad is that?

Ferrari, McLaren and Williams were once the 'grandees' of the sport and look where we all are now!

We have all been overtaken by the arriviste techno-nerds of the IT generation - the 'new' Mercedes team and the likes of Red Bull/ Alpha Tauri.

The sport has changed and the old ways, it seems, no longer work. Ferrari needs to embrace the new.

#SadFace

[stefa]

And how sad is that?

Ferrari, McLaren and Williams were once the 'grandees' of the sport and look where we all are now!

We have all been overtaken by the arriviste techno-nerds of the IT generation - the 'new' Mercedes team and the likes of Red Bull/ Alpha Tauri.

The sport has changed and the old ways, it seems, no longer work. Ferrari needs to embrace the new.

#SadFace

What is more sad, is that that NEW come back in 2008....

[jgonzalesm6]

Russell gained 5 places cutting the track...surely a penalty for that.

Russell did not gain 5 places for going into the run off and then rejoining the track.

[nani_s23]

Mercedes are the only non-Red Bull team with a double podium this season.
Lewis Hamilton is the only non-Red Bull driver to record two P2 finishes this season.

This is what called as Progress…!! RB & Mercs their development/strategy team are top notch.

[Aviamata]

And how sad is that?

Ferrari, McLaren and Williams were once the 'grandees' of the sport and look where we all are now!

We have all been overtaken by the arriviste techno-nerds of the IT generation - the 'new' Mercedes team and the likes of Red Bull/ Alpha Tauri.

The sport has changed and the old ways, it seems, no longer work. Ferrari needs to embrace the new.

#SadFace

It's happening with us right before our eyes now . Heartbreaking but we would soon have to seen it : Ferrari McLaren and Willam fighting for points .

[WS6TransAm01]

And how sad is that?

Ferrari, McLaren and Williams were once the 'grandees' of the sport and look where we all are now!

We have all been overtaken by the arriviste techno-nerds of the IT generation - the 'new' Mercedes team and the likes of Red Bull/ Alpha Tauri.

The sport has changed and the old ways, it seems, no longer work. Ferrari needs to embrace the new.

#SadFace

[The Architect]

Maybe Ferrari should be happy they beat (with one car anyway) AM and Alpine? Another shocker otherwise with what happened to Leclerc. And porpoising back again? Always astounds me how badly Ferrari have been run for the last 15 years. A complete shambles. They never fix anything. Kiss of death for any promising driver.

[tifosi1993]

Not sure its.mechanical. a suspension wouldn't make the car so unstable lap to lap like the drivers are saying. Last year we had very good tire deg before rd39. That wracked our aero and our ability to use the tires properly. Still think it's an.aero imbalance issue mostly but suspension is being used to try to mitigate it. Unless.they can use variable rate suspensions, they need to get a consistent level of downfirce from the floor at all speeds and especially when in yaw through faster turns.
Hopefully these upgrades bring some stability and they can find a setup that works.

First, we should remember that the car was still fast in qualifying even after the introduction of TD39. Poles in Monza, Singapore and Austin and front row starts everywhere bar handful of races. But it was evident that the car had lost race pace.

It's the same thing with this year's car. But its slowly losing the one lap pace, and the race pace remains poor. Tyre deg is no longer the problem. But the problem they are facing right now is even more complex. The car behaving differently with the same compound at different fuel load isn't something you can fix by just adding aero bits.

It's now quite clear that they can't run the floor as low as they were doing last year before SPA. We should remember that propoising was never a problem for Ferrari. The car was bouncing on the straights but the platform was stable in corners. But right now, they are bouncing in corners, notably in high speed corners, which is not a good sign.

They need to focus on the underbody area, diffuser and the suspension, not sidepods. Sidepods are irrelevant. RB's downwash design is not giving them the edge over others. It's their suspension geometry, which enabling the floor to remain very close to the ground and providing them the best ground effect.

I'm just an armchair expert. But I do believe this car would transform dramatically, if it had the RB suspension.

[Tony]

What's really troubling here is Vasseur's statement after the race where he pronounced if they knew where the problems were, they would have already fixed it. It sounds like there is a real issue with the tools that they are using to evaluate and simulate their designs.

[stefa]

Next batch of upgrades
Attachment 8187

[Silent Bob]

First, we should remember that the car was still fast in qualifying even after the introduction of TD39. Poles in Monza, Singapore and Austin and front row starts everywhere bar handful of races. But it was evident that the car had lost race pace.

It's the same thing with this year's car. But its slowly losing the one lap pace, and the race pace remains poor. Tyre deg is no longer the problem. But the problem they are facing right now is even more complex. The car behaving differently with the same compound at different fuel load isn't something you can fix by just adding aero bits.

It's now quite clear that they can't run the floor as low as they were doing last year before SPA. We should remember that propoising was never a problem for Ferrari. The car was bouncing on the straights but the platform was stable in corners. But right now, they are bouncing in corners, notably in high speed corners, which is not a good sign.

They need to focus on the underbody area, diffuser and the suspension, not sidepods. Sidepods are irrelevant. RB's downwash design is not giving them the edge over others. It's their suspension geometry, which enabling the floor to remain very close to the ground and providing them the best ground effect.

I'm just an armchair expert. But I do believe this car would transform dramatically, if it had the RB suspension.

Ferrari seem to think it's more aero than suspension, hence the revised side pods. Merc figured the same and brought in revised side pods.
I don't think suspension will cause a car to be so erratic and unpredictable. It can help with ride, tire temps, dive but I think the Ferraris are losing downforce in yaw situations. Something is detaching and they are not sure why.
in qualy with light load and hot soft tires, the mechanical grip is enough to give them speed through the corners, so the suspension is ok. Before TD39, the suspension was fine and we had a car that was great at riding curbs and fast in slow and high speed corners. Porpoising didn't bother us because we were able to lower the plank and keep the ride height low. Once we lost the ground effect, we started getting slower, but qualy was always still pretty decent.

[FerrariF60]

Next batch of upgrades
Attachment 8187

hey Stefa,

hopefully those upgrades won't be brought to the next race as i will be going....and most likely will be disappointed by Ferrari's pace.

but hey, it may actually make the current DONKEY car more rapid.....LOL....

the current Ferrari situation is so SAD, it's actually funny.....ha, ha...

[tifosi1993]

Ferrari seem to think it's more aero than suspension, hence the revised side pods. Merc figured the same and brought in revised side pods.
I don't think suspension will cause a car to be so erratic and unpredictable. It can help with ride, tire temps, dive but I think the Ferraris are losing downforce in yaw situations. Something is detaching and they are not sure why.
in qualy with light load and hot soft tires, the mechanical grip is enough to give them speed through the corners, so the suspension is ok. Before TD39, the suspension was fine and we had a car that was great at riding curbs and fast in slow and high speed corners. Porpoising didn't bother us because we were able to lower the plank and keep the ride height low. Once we lost the ground effect, we started getting slower, but qualy was always still pretty decent.

You've answered it yourself. Before TD39, they were able to achieve optimal ride height due to the flexi planks. But they can't do that right now, so the solution to this problem is mechanical, not aero.
The drivers have blamed peakiness repeatedly. And to get rid of that, they need to redesign the suspension. The car still riding high when the tank is full, adding downforce is not going to make the car run lower.

In ground effect era, suspension plays a huge part in overall aero performance. For example, during the pre-season testing of 2022 season, RB was struggling with porpoising like any other. But they brought a new floor and a completely redesigned suspension on the last of testing, and that completely solved the bouncing problem.

Ride height is way more important now. And suspension is the only thing that controls ride height. So I believe re-designing the suspension is the answer to all of Ferrari's current predicaments.

[FerrariF60]

You've answered it yourself. Before TD39, they were able to achieve optimal ride height due to the flexi planks. But they can't do that right now, so the solution to this problem is mechanical, not aero.
The drivers have blamed peakiness repeatedly. And to get rid of that, they need to redesign the suspension. The car still riding high when the tank is full, adding downforce is not going to make the car run lower.

In ground effect era, suspension plays a huge part in overall aero performance. For example, during the pre-season testing of 2022 season, RB was struggling with porpoising like any other. But they brought a new floor and a completely redesigned suspension on the last of testing, and that completely solved the bouncing problem.

Ride height is way more important now. And suspension is the only thing that controls ride height. So I believe re-designing the suspension is the answer to all of Ferrari's current predicaments.

So why aren’t they doing it then?? Either they don’t know how, and they need to take more pictures of the red bulls’ suspension (by their own photographers ) OR they think it’s gonna cost too much money and they what to adhere to the given budget cap…..all this of course for the GOOD OF THE SPORT…..lame

[Greig]

So why aren’t they doing it then?? Either they don’t know how, and they need to take more pictures of the red bulls’ suspension (by their own photographers ) OR they think it’s gonna cost too much money and they what to adhere to the given budget cap…..all this of course for the GOOD OF THE SPORT…..lame

Surely be better ways to cheat than break the cap and get caught, you seem to say this every week that is what is lame.

[FerrariF60]

Surely be better ways to cheat than break the cap and get caught, you seem to say this every week that is what is lame.

Well, red bull seemed to have broken the cap in 2021 adn got slapped on the arm with a pretty small fine....why can't Ferrari do teh same....i mean money is no object to them, NO???

back in the Binotto days, Binotto seemed to have stuck to the budget cap to a T....

Ferrari should grow a pair and be more naughty like Red bull is....just saying....i think they are just LOST and don't have a clue how to get out of this mess they are in

[Greig]

Well, red bull seemed to have broken the cap in 2021 adn got slapped on the arm with a pretty small fine....why can't Ferrari do teh same....i mean money is no object to them, NO???

back in the Binotto days, Binotto seemed to have stuck to the budget cap to a T....

Ferrari should grow a pair and be more naughty like Red bull is....just saying....i think they are just LOST and don't have a clue how to get out of this mess they are in

Everyone seems to stick to the cap other than Red Bull and AM 2 years ago now....not sure why you attack Ferrari for not cheating strange way to go.

How much does it cost to change the design of the suspension? do you even know? Are you so sure suspension is the issue?

[FerrariF60]

Everyone seems to stick to the cap other than Red Bull and AM 2 years ago now....not sure why you attack Ferrari for not cheating strange way to go.

How much does it cost to change the design of the suspension? do you even know? Are you so sure suspension is the issue?

NO, i dont' know how much it would cost to change the suspension design, but a lucky guess it would be quite a bit me thinks otherwise they would probalbly do it....hence me thinks that they will only implement it in next year's design as doing so this year it would put them over the cost cap.

most likely is the issue, as doing new updated aero (big uptates) seemed to NOT have solved the tire issue and prolly made it more unpredictible

Merc seemed to have introduced a new/revised suspension and they seem to be much better....unless Spain was just a fluke for them....

[Silent Bob]

You've answered it yourself. Before TD39, they were able to achieve optimal ride height due to the flexi planks. But they can't do that right now, so the solution to this problem is mechanical, not aero.
The drivers have blamed peakiness repeatedly. And to get rid of that, they need to redesign the suspension. The car still riding high when the tank is full, adding downforce is not going to make the car run lower.

In ground effect era, suspension plays a huge part in overall aero performance. For example, during the pre-season testing of 2022 season, RB was struggling with porpoising like any other. But they brought a new floor and a completely redesigned suspension on the last of testing, and that completely solved the bouncing problem.

Ride height is way more important now. And suspension is the only thing that controls ride height. So I believe re-designing the suspension is the answer to all of Ferrari's current predicaments.

Suspension doesn't make a car peaky. losing downforce does. The ground effect downforce is what draws the car lower, when you lose that, the car springs up, like what porpoising is, imagine that happening unexpectedly mid corner at different times throughout the race.

If it was just a static ride height issue, then suspension would fix it easy... lower the car. Their really isn't a magic suspension like FRIC or hydraulics heated by trans fluid anymore. The dampers are simple now. If they can introduce a suspension that helps, great. But I think they need better more consistent aero so they can run there car at a ride height that gives them consistency and the most performance.

[Silent Bob]

NO, i dont' know how much it would cost to change the suspension design, but a lucky guess it would be quite a bit me thinks otherwise they would probalbly do it....hence me thinks that they will only implement it in next year's design as doing so this year it would put them over the cost cap.

most likely is the issue, as doing new updated aero (big uptates) seemed to NOT have solved the tire issue and prolly made it more unpredictible

Merc seemed to have introduced a new/revised suspension and they seem to be much better....unless Spain was just a fluke for them....

Merc introduced a revised front suspension but also heavily revised their sidepods and have gone to a downwash sidepod design. They were having the similar issues I believe with their zero pods design, inconsistent downforce where they had to run the cars too stiff or too high. But they were already better with the tires than Ferrari.

[paolo lalli]

Ferrari should have ditched there concept like mercedes have done.Toto called it he had had enough. Looks like the call has paid of for mercedes now thats a leader.Mean while ferrari keep pocking around lost and clueless the car should have been scraped far to many people involved in this lemon of a f1 car but still they persist there heads are like granite.Charles has lost his way and direction at ferrari what started so promising has unravelled to the point of anguish another talent wasted and burnt at the hands of incompetence at wally world not ferrari world,its painful to watch .