2023 Spanish Grand Prix - Race Thread

[Super M]

You would think that by introducing new parts it would have resulted in a step forward ??

There was no difference in the car at all........At least not from my point of view................So did we throw money at something in hope it would change the direction of the car and it's performance ? ( Almost like a knee jerk reaction, so to speak as the team was under pressure to do something ) ?

I'm actually speechless and peed off at the same time. Are we that incompetent

[stefa]

hey Stefa,

hopefully those upgrades won't be brought to the next race as i will be going....and most likely will be disappointed by Ferrari's pace.

but hey, it may actually make the current DONKEY car more rapid.....LOL....

the current Ferrari situation is so SAD, it's actually funny.....ha, ha...

I wish you have a blast at home GP!!!! Hopefully Ferrari will produce decent result!

[paolo lalli]

Yes a great result coming 7th and 8th only at best.based on current standings iam used to being dissapointed so it's no big deal.

[FerrariF60]

I wish you have a blast at home GP!!!! Hopefully Ferrari will produce decent result!

Thank you Stefa....but honestly, i'm NOT overly optimistic at all....as i haven't been for quite a few years now. But i'm still a DIE hard Ferrari fan....been since i was a little kid and will continue to be even though Ferrari seems to have more "downs" than "up's".

i'm just gonna go and enjoy the weekend....Montreal city is a blast and super fun when they host the F1 race.


hopefully the weather will cooperate and be nice....usually is, but the odd time has been cold and rainy....fingers crossed.

[tifosi1993]

Suspension doesn't make a car peaky. losing downforce does. The ground effect downforce is what draws the car lower, when you lose that, the car springs up, like what porpoising is, imagine that happening unexpectedly mid corner at different times throughout the race.

If it was just a static ride height issue, then suspension would fix it easy... lower the car. Their really isn't a magic suspension like FRIC or hydraulics heated by trans fluid anymore. The dampers are simple now. If they can introduce a suspension that helps, great. But I think they need better more consistent aero so they can run there car at a ride height that gives them consistency and the most performance.

And how do you explain the loss of downforce by going from low fuel to high fuel? The car has all the downforce in qualifying but not in a race trim. To me, the explanation is quite simple, the car is unable to maintain desired ride height when its heavy with fuel. And unable to obtain the desired ride height means loss of downforce, and loss downforce means the tyres are sliding, hence overheating and losing optimal temperature.

Ride height is controlled by the suspension. And Ferrari haven't brought any upgrades to the front/rear suspension at all. They slightly changed the front suspension this year by lowering the track rod, while the rear suspension is same and hasn't been touched at all. It has the same geometry as the launch spec F1-75.

The tyres have changed quite significantly this year and all the teams have brought multiple suspension revisions to their cars. But not Ferrari. And I don't see any reasons for them to not struggle during races with tyres. They keep bringing new aero parts, when the solution to the problem is mechanical. And you don't have to take my words for it. Folks at F1technical are more knowledgable than I or anyone here, and they also believe the problem is suspension and Ferrari's lack of desire at upgrading it.

[tifosi1993]

So why aren’t they doing it then?? Either they don’t know how, and they need to take more pictures of the red bulls’ suspension (by their own photographers ) OR they think it’s gonna cost too much money and they what to adhere to the given budget cap…..all this of course for the GOOD OF THE SPORT…..lame

Our new technical guru Enrico Cardile thinks the problem is aero. I don't know if that's his thinking but it's what the Italian media is saying.

And you don't have to be an aero expert or genius to see the weird decisions Ferrari have been making. The rear suspension of the SF23 has the same geometry as the rear suspension of F1-75. And Ferrari haven't brought any upgrades for the suspension or attempted to improve it, while the construction of the Pirelli tyres changed completely this year.

In last year's Belgium GP, pretty much every team had brought revised suspension. But Ferrari brought nothing and they are still suffering from the same problem ever since. Good qualifying pace but subpar race pace. Unless they are bringing a completely revised suspension any time soon, don't expect/hope for any improvements.

[Hornet]

You would think that by introducing new parts it would have resulted in a step forward ??

There was no difference in the car at all........At least not from my point of view................So did we throw money at something in hope it would change the direction of the car and it's performance ? ( Almost like a knee jerk reaction, so to speak as the team was under pressure to do something ) ?

I'm actually speechless and peed off at the same time. Are we that incompetent

The thing about development is that everyone is moving forward too.
So, it don't necessarily meant Ferrari have not made any progress. It could be that our progress is just not as fast as others like Merc and Red Bull. So the net result is we are still behind while teams like Merc move ahead

We've always struggle with mid season development.

[Super M]

The thing about development is that everyone is moving forward too.
So, it don't necessarily meant Ferrari have not made any progress. It could be that our progress is just not as fast as others like Merc and Red Bull. So the net result is we are still behind while teams like Merc move ahead

We've always struggle with mid season development.

Thanks for your input, Hornet.

I get it and that other teams would also bring their upgrades and mask our improvements perhaps.

But for me, i was really hoping that we would improve on the tyre deg ( at least better than before ) and that the car would behave that much better. But i didn't see this and to make matters worse, CL didn't even get past Q1.

Then you hear post race debrief by our drivers and they're complaining the car is all over the place. How on earth does this make sense. I'm not expecting a magic wand and voullaaaa our car can fight with RB after these upgrades, But at least an improvement, that's all..........But Alas, nada......

[Aviamata]

The thing about development is that everyone is moving forward too.
So, it don't necessarily meant Ferrari have not made any progress. It could be that our progress is just not as fast as others like Merc and Red Bull. So the net result is we are still behind while teams like Merc move ahead

We've always struggle with mid season development.

Clearly we don't have good engineer

[Greig]

In last year's Belgium GP, pretty much every team had brought revised suspension. But Ferrari brought nothing and they are still suffering from the same problem ever since.

Don't think that is true.

[Cavallino]

what i would like is simply an answer,

if you're changing directions, fine, say so, and give up on this car,

but if you're not changing concepts, you need to see improvement with the update packages on this car

[tifosi1993]

Don't think that is true.

Yup, not all teams. But the team we were trying to beat brought new rear suspension, along with few other teams as well. The point still stands, Ferrari haven't made any changes to the rear suspension since the launch of F1-75.

[Cavallino]

we're all here worshipping Newey, everyone forgets how from 2000-2010 he was nowhere. He was producing unreliable duds.

[tifosi1993]

what i would like is simply an answer,

if you're changing directions, fine, say so, and give up on this car,

but if you're not changing concepts, you need to see improvement with the update packages on this car

But Ferrari haven't changed direction. The sidepod may look different, but its still an inwash design, not downwash like the RB. So basically, Ferrari sticking to their concept.

To me, aero isn't the problem, it never was. In this ground effect era, Ferrari actually has the fastest concept, IMO. But they are unable to fully utilize it. They need to/must replicate what RB is doing with the rear suspension.

And since they can't get Newey any more, maybe they should try and bring Aldo Costa back to Maranello. Offer him the TP role and hire some Pirelli/ex Bridgestone engineers along with him as well.

[Silent Bob]

And how do you explain the loss of downforce by going from low fuel to high fuel? The car has all the downforce in qualifying but not in a race trim. To me, the explanation is quite simple, the car is unable to maintain desired ride height when its heavy with fuel. And unable to obtain the desired ride height means loss of downforce, and loss downforce means the tyres are sliding, hence overheating and losing optimal temperature.

Ride height is controlled by the suspension. And Ferrari haven't brought any upgrades to the front/rear suspension at all. They slightly changed the front suspension this year by lowering the track rod, while the rear suspension is same and hasn't been touched at all. It has the same geometry as the launch spec F1-75.

The tyres have changed quite significantly this year and all the teams have brought multiple suspension revisions to their cars. But not Ferrari. And I don't see any reasons for them to not struggle during races with tyres. They keep bringing new aero parts, when the solution to the problem is mechanical. And you don't have to take my words for it. Folks at F1technical are more knowledgable than I or anyone here, and they also believe the problem is suspension and Ferrari's lack of desire at upgrading it.

I've already explained it. The car can generate enough mechanical grip in qualy with low fuel and hot soft tires to take corners at a pretty high speed, thus generating enough downforce from the floor. On high fuel the car is slower and cannot generate enough downforce. It is the downforce that sucks the car to the ground. Starting with heavy fuel load the springs are generally pretty stiff, if there isn't enough speed to generate downforce from the floor, the car sits higher than it should and doesn't get sucked down to an optimal height, all the cornering is taken by the sidewalls, tires squirm, overheat and degrade. This is also the reason why it gets a little better as the fuel burns off and the mechanical grip increases, in later stints.
RedBulls weapon is it's floor and diffuser. Suspension may be better than ours but I don't think it would make much difference. If we know how a damper works and how the FIA have limited them, there really isn't much they can do to use them to raise or lower the car other than stiffening them or softening them. The suspension geometry will help in turns and under braking/accelerating situations with anti squat - anti dive characteristics and even with tire wear/degradation with camber settings etc. But Ferrari needs good stable aero at slower speeds to help its car. That would solve about all of its problems, might not make us a fast as RedBull, but would make us a lot quicker.

You mention the F175. That was able to generate a lot of downforce all the time because it was able to ride lower due to the moveable plank. It could lose downforce but reattach it very quickly because it rode low. They didn't have to raise the car to worry about wearing it out too much. That loophole has been closed.

[Silent Bob]

But Ferrari haven't changed direction. The sidepod may look different, but its still an inwash design, not downwash like the RB. So basically, Ferrari sticking to their concept.

To me, aero isn't the problem, it never was. In this ground effect era, Ferrari actually has the fastest concept, IMO. But they are unable to fully utilize it. They need to/must replicate what RB is doing with the rear suspension.

And since they can't get Newey any more, maybe they should try and bring Aldo Costa back to Maranello. Offer him the TP role and hire some Pirelli/ex Bridgestone engineers along with him as well.

I don't think it would hurt to get Aldo. He couldn't get the EBD to work when at Ferrari, but may have some knowledge of ground effect cars.

[Greig]

Yup, not all teams. But the team we were trying to beat brought new rear suspension, along with few other teams as well. The point still stands, Ferrari haven't made any changes to the rear suspension since the launch of F1-75.

Had a look and can't find anything for new suspension for Red Bull at Spa.

Maybe the suspension is not the issue hence the no change....but it seems many on here have just decided it is.

[FerrariF60]

Don't think that is true.

prove it....

[Greig]

prove it....

Google it

[FerrariF60]

we're all here worshipping Newey, everyone forgets how from 2000-2010 he was nowhere. He was producing unreliable duds.

yeah, but at least they were fast....like the 05 and 06 where kimi almost won the championships....had it not been for reliability

i'd take a FAST car over reliability any day of the week....at least ONE can work and fix reliability fairly easily....whereas making car fast is not as easy.....just ask Ferrari as they have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE how to do it ever since TD39 came along

[FerrariF60]

But Ferrari haven't changed direction. The sidepod may look different, but its still an inwash design, not downwash like the RB. So basically, Ferrari sticking to their concept.

To me, aero isn't the problem, it never was. In this ground effect era, Ferrari actually has the fastest concept, IMO. But they are unable to fully utilize it. They need to/must replicate what RB is doing with the rear suspension.

And since they can't get Newey any more, maybe they should try and bring Aldo Costa back to Maranello. Offer him the TP role and hire some Pirelli/ex Bridgestone engineers along with him as well.

don't forget that red bull ALSO has front pull rod....which i'm not sure if it makes their car work better with that kind front suspension....but just throwing it out there

[FerrariF60]

But Ferrari haven't changed direction. The sidepod may look different, but its still an inwash design, not downwash like the RB. So basically, Ferrari sticking to their concept.

To me, aero isn't the problem, it never was. In this ground effect era, Ferrari actually has the fastest concept, IMO. But they are unable to fully utilize it. They need to/must replicate what RB is doing with the rear suspension.

And since they can't get Newey any more, maybe they should try and bring Aldo Costa back to Maranello. Offer him the TP role and hire some Pirelli/ex Bridgestone engineers along with him as well.

i personally dont' think there is an issue with Fred as TP.....but yeah, it would be nice if they could bring Aldo COsta back and put him in charge of the Aero dept along with a few good red bull aero gurus Ferrari will be getting.

[Silent Bob]

yeah, but at least they were fast....like the 05 and 06 where kimi almost won the championships....had it not been for reliability




i'd take a FAST car over reliability any day of the week....at least ONE can work and fix reliability fairly easily....whereas making car fast is not as easy.....just ask Ferrari as they have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE how to do it ever since TD39 came along

Wasnt the tune last year when Ferrari engines were blowing up. Then everyone just turned their anger to the engine dept. Plus with.locked engines , not so easy to fix reliability.
Had a fast unreliable car at the beginning of last year. Pretty reliable but slow this year.
Gotta be a point in the middle somewhere.

[paolo lalli]

Ferrari just like a cork left on the high seas floating around with no direction.

[FerrariF60]

Ferrari just like a cork left on the high seas floating around with no direction.

couldn't agree more.....Ferrari of OLD is long gone and may very well take DECADES to bring it back....if ever

[tifosi1993]

I've already explained it. The car can generate enough mechanical grip in qualy with low fuel and hot soft tires to take corners at a pretty high speed, thus generating enough downforce from the floor. On high fuel the car is slower and cannot generate enough downforce. It is the downforce that sucks the car to the ground. Starting with heavy fuel load the springs are generally pretty stiff, if there isn't enough speed to generate downforce from the floor, the car sits higher than it should and doesn't get sucked down to an optimal height, all the cornering is taken by the sidewalls, tires squirm, overheat and degrade. This is also the reason why it gets a little better as the fuel burns off and the mechanical grip increases, in later stints.
RedBulls weapon is it's floor and diffuser. Suspension may be better than ours but I don't think it would make much difference. If we know how a damper works and how the FIA have limited them, there really isn't much they can do to use them to raise or lower the car other than stiffening them or softening them. The suspension geometry will help in turns and under braking/accelerating situations with anti squat - anti dive characteristics and even with tire wear/degradation with camber settings etc. But Ferrari needs good stable aero at slower speeds to help its car. That would solve about all of its problems, might not make us a fast as RedBull, but would make us a lot quicker.

You mention the F175. That was able to generate a lot of downforce all the time because it was able to ride lower due to the moveable plank. It could lose downforce but reattach it very quickly because it rode low. They didn't have to raise the car to worry about wearing it out too much. That loophole has been closed.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. To me, the problem is the suspensions, both front and rear. And no aerodynamic upgrades are going to fix our mechanical defect.

[tifosi1993]

Had a look and can't find anything for new suspension for Red Bull at Spa.

Maybe the suspension is not the issue hence the no change....but it seems many on here have just decided it is.

https://www.racefans.net/2022/08/26/title-rivals-bring-belgian-gp-updates-while-mclaren-make-most-changes-to-car/

Suspensions are more important now. Ground effect is making teams rediscover suspension. Red Bull is able to run their suspension softer without encountering any bouncing, that's why they don't suffer performance loss from bumps and elevation changes.

I believe by not touching the suspension, Ferrari is losing out big time. I also believe if the SF23 had the RB suspensions, it would be the fastest car on the grid.

[tifosi1993]

i personally dont' think there is an issue with Fred as TP.....but yeah, it would be nice if they could bring Aldo COsta back and put him in charge of the Aero dept along with a few good red bull aero gurus Ferrari will be getting.

Typed 'P' instead of 'D'.

Costa is currently working as the chief technical officer at Dallara, surely Ferrari can pay him more than Dallara. The question is whether Elkann and Vigna are willing to make him an offer.

[tifosi1993]

I don't think it would hurt to get Aldo. He couldn't get the EBD to work when at Ferrari, but may have some knowledge of ground effect cars.

Because he was stubborn. He was sticking to pushrod at the rear, while everyone had opted for pullrod. And instead of passing the exhaust gas in the diffuser through downwash sidepods, his solution was to use the starter motor hole. If made the car both low on drag and low on rear downforce.

But the F150 had the best mechanical grip which made it very kind to its tyres. And it was still better than some of the abominations Ferrari have produced since his forced departure from Scuderia.

[Alonsomaniac]

Half a week later, and still a headache...........