2023 Hungarian GP - Race thread

[FerrariF60]

you're just complaining without any direction

why even continue to post?

or you can follow the thread of your thoughts... why is the team useless and running like a wagon on 3 wheels... maybe because they're all guaranteed jobs and pensions regardless of performance? That would actually show some insight rather than sophmoric puerile stream of consciousness ramblings.

or maybe there is something more going on these last couple of races where even Red Bull isn't as mighty as they were...

mate, they don't need to show all MIGHTY anymore....they basically wrapped up both WDC and WCC, why invest and look all mighty still??
they even admitted that their focus is now on 2024 because they have that much more performance in their pocket for the rest of this year....whereas Ferrari are truly LOST and they'd be lucky if they finish 5th in WCC standings this year

[TTRSMAD]

The reality is that they messed up with the concept of the SF-23. The car is good on 1 lap but disappointing with 100kg of fuel. The performance is peaky and the vehicle dynamics is where the improvement will be found.

These rule changes brings me back to the Vettel days of blown diffuser. Ferrari like with the Alonso days where they used to struggle with the coanda effect to seal the floor. Again Ferrari are missing the trick and Newey's car shine.

They should of exploited the strength of the F1-75 but got into making a car to compete with the straight line speed of Red Bull. There is still hope, these rules have ceiling of performance and next year, Ferrari hopefully will get it right.

[Cavallino]

mate, they don't need to show all MIGHTY anymore....they basically wrapped up both WDC and WCC, why invest and look all mighty still??
they even admitted that their focus is now on 2024 because they have that much more performance in their pocket for the rest of this year....whereas Ferrari are truly LOST and they'd be lucky if they finish 5th in WCC standings this year

okay, but by your amazing logic, if Ferrari knows this car is fundamentally wrong, why try to fix it to run with these tyres, especially if there is no carry over to the 2024 concept. That logic can go both ways.

and if you finish 5th in the standings you'll get more cost cap next year.

glad you're not running the team

[FerrariF60]

okay, but by your amazing logic, if Ferrari knows this car is fundamentally wrong, why try to fix it to run with these tyres, especially if there is no carry over to the 2024 concept. That logic can go both ways.

and if you finish 5th in the standings you'll get more cost cap next year.

glad you're not running the team

or you for that matter.....lol

[Cavallino]

or you for that matter.....lol

nice post, add that to the 10000 other useless ones

try to make a good post like my boy TTRSMAD made above, i wanted to reply to it, because it's good, but instead you're polluting the discussion

[tifosi1993]

The reality is that they messed up with the concept of the SF-23. The car is good on 1 lap but disappointing with 100kg of fuel. The performance is peaky and the vehicle dynamics is where the improvement will be found.

These rule changes brings me back to the Vettel days of blown diffuser. Ferrari like with the Alonso days where they used to struggle with the coanda effect to seal the floor. Again Ferrari are missing the trick and Newey's car shine.

They should of exploited the strength of the F1-75 but got into making a car to compete with the straight line speed of Red Bull. There is still hope, these rules have ceiling of performance and next year, Ferrari hopefully will get it right.

The car "was" good on one lap pace but not any more. After Monaco, it never looked like a car that can take poles. We must remember that nothing stays static in F1, others have improved and moved forward while Ferrari pretty much stayed the same.

Also, the blown diffuser analogy doesn't work here. F1 had engine freeze and no improvements were allowed on the V8. But even taking that into consideration, Ferrari still missed the tricks with blown diffuser. The 2012 Sauber with the Ferrari engine had the best blown diffuser exhaust design, which incentivized Newey to copy it and incorporate on the RB9. Ferrari on the other hand refused to copy Sauber's design and kept their chimney exhaust system. Sounds familiar?

The "strength" of the F1-75 was the flexi planks. As soon as Ferrari lost that "trick", it lost all the performance. Again, sounds familiar?

I don't see any hopes for the future, unfortunately. It is the same bunch who will design next year's car. They are not the best of the lot so there isn't any realistic chance of next year's car being "great". Had Ferrari recruited some well known and capable names who won championships, then sure, there was a chance. But that's not the case and expecting otherwise is nothing but wishful thinking.

[FerrariF60]

nice post, add that to the 10000 other useless ones

try to make a good post like my boy TTRSMAD made above, i wanted to reply to it, because it's good, but instead you're polluting the discussion

maybe if Ferrari "would pull up their socks" and build a car worth praising on this forum, a lot more members would cheer and praise them for good work they did, BUT since they are stombeling on their feet and keep making the car slower with their upgrades....one can only joke and laugh about it that a team of their magnitude can't build a competitive car if their life depended on it....i can understand a team like Haas or williams because they dont' have the financial backing, BUT Ferrari???? common

eversince 2009 when unlimited track testing got banned, Ferrari have been no-where.....now they cannot longer run their cars on track 24/7 developing them that way they are really hurting

tehy STILL to this day have no clue how to properly use CFD and wind tunnel data to bring upgrades that really work the first time....and when it does happen, once in a million tries it happens by LUCK

so in a nutshell, this is your and my beloved F1 Ferrari team....end of story

[TTRSMAD]

The car "was" good on one lap pace but not any more. After Monaco, it never looked like a car that can take poles. We must remember that nothing stays static in F1, others have improved and moved forward while Ferrari pretty much stayed the same.

Also, the blown diffuser analogy doesn't work here. F1 had engine freeze and no improvements were allowed on the V8. But even taking that into consideration, Ferrari still missed the tricks with blown diffuser. The 2012 Sauber with the Ferrari engine had the best blown diffuser exhaust design, which incentivized Newey to copy it and incorporate on the RB9. Ferrari on the other hand refused to copy Sauber's design and kept their chimney exhaust system. Sounds familiar?

The "strength" of the F1-75 was the flexi planks. As soon as Ferrari lost that "trick", it lost all the performance. Again, sounds familiar?

I don't see any hopes for the future, unfortunately. It is the same bunch who will design next year's car. They are not the best of the lot so there isn't any realistic chance of next year's car being "great". Had Ferrari recruited some well known and capable names who won championships, then sure, there was a chance. But that's not the case and expecting otherwise is nothing but wishful thinking.

Ferrari can get pole but they set up the car not to shred the tires in the race.

The point I was trying to make is that these rules are made to favor floor aerodynamics which Newey is a master at and the same thing happened from 2010 to 2013 with the blown diffuser era. I don't remember Sauber winning a race in 2012 do you?

I remember Alonso almost winning in 2012 that for sure. Your going to have dog season in F1, it happens but that does not prevent me from believing that Ferrari are not trying. Next year, Ferrari have a clear path to where to bring the car.

Next year will be very competitive like in 2012 where many team are going to be able to win. Ferrari will be in the fight with a car built around Leclerc and the strength of the F1-75 being very good in the corners with having good

traction with the bonus of not blowing engines, well I hope.

[PURE PASSION]

Ferrari can get pole but they set up the car not to shred the tires in the race.

The point I was trying to make is that these rules are made to favor floor aerodynamics which Newey is a master at and the same thing happened from 2010 to 2013 with the blown diffuser era. I don't remember Sauber winning a race in 2012 do you?

I remember Alonso almost winning in 2012 that for sure. Your going to have dog season in F1, it happens but that does not prevent me from believing that Ferrari are not trying. Next year, Ferrari have a clear path to where to bring the car.

Next year will be very competitive like in 2012 where many team are going to be able to win. Ferrari will be in the fight with a car built around Leclerc and the strength of the F1-75 being very good in the corners with having good

traction with the bonus of not blowing engines, well I hope.

The thing is that ,the scenario you are telling us is just pure hope.Just a speculation. We all would like to believe it and we actually where doing it for years. Now ,lots of us have come to a point and the team have exhausted us ,they have destroyed our hopes with years after years falling in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT!!! To believe that the team we have right now can deliver a competitive car ,based on what??? We have reached the middle of the season and they still don't know why the car is slow.They don't have a clue what the car can do from 1 lap to the other .They have so bad correlation fron factory to the track that in last weekend they thought we could fight for the podium (and even a hidden hope for the win) .That was Vasseurs statements.
And what happened??? We where NOWHERE. 4th -5th team !!!!
So what had the team show us ,th grab on and say """ at least they can do " this" thing good and that gives me hope for next year"?????
SORRY in this annoying some of the guys here ,who still have some hopes to keep them, but I personally am empty.
I will start to believe when they start delivering some actual results on track!!! Everything else is just a fairytale. And in my 46th year ,I'm too old for fairytale!!!!!

[tifosi1993]

Ferrari can get pole but they set up the car not to shred the tires in the race.

The point I was trying to make is that these rules are made to favor floor aerodynamics which Newey is a master at and the same thing happened from 2010 to 2013 with the blown diffuser era. I don't remember Sauber winning a race in 2012 do you?

I remember Alonso almost winning in 2012 that for sure. Your going to have dog season in F1, it happens but that does not prevent me from believing that Ferrari are not trying. Next year, Ferrari have a clear path to where to bring the car.

Next year will be very competitive like in 2012 where many team are going to be able to win. Ferrari will be in the fight with a car built around Leclerc and the strength of the F1-75 being very good in the corners with having good

traction with the bonus of not blowing engines, well I hope.

Cause it takes more than a exhaust system to win races. Perez and Kobayashi are not drivers that perform well under every circumstance. 2012 Malaysia was the prime example.

And if you trully think Newey excels with ground effect, then how can you expect Ferrari to topple him? Do you really think Cardile or anyone at Ferrari is capable of stopping Newey?

I think we should be concentrating on real world data. And the data is quite obvious, Ferrari is not capable of overwhelming RB at the top. The whole RB team is on another level, from strategy to car development, everywhere RB excels over Ferrari. To expect Ferrari's 2nd rate engineers would overwhelm the best technical department in F1 is nothing but hopium.

[Cavallino]

maybe if Ferrari "would pull up their socks" and build a car worth praising on this forum, a lot more members would cheer and praise them for good work they did, BUT since they are stombeling on their feet and keep making the car slower with their upgrades....one can only joke and laugh about it that a team of their magnitude can't build a competitive car if their life depended on it....i can understand a team like Haas or williams because they dont' have the financial backing, BUT Ferrari???? common

eversince 2009 when unlimited track testing got banned, Ferrari have been no-where.....now they cannot longer run their cars on track 24/7 developing them that way they are really hurting

tehy STILL to this day have no clue how to properly use CFD and wind tunnel data to bring upgrades that really work the first time....and when it does happen, once in a million tries it happens by LUCK

so in a nutshell, this is your and my beloved F1 Ferrari team....end of story

this post is better, i can't argue with most of it yeah, but we also had unlimited testing prior to 2000. It wasn't until we got a driver and team willing to put in the work that we started winning.

[Cavallino]

The car "was" good on one lap pace but not any more. After Monaco, it never looked like a car that can take poles. We must remember that nothing stays static in F1, others have improved and moved forward while Ferrari pretty much stayed the same.

Also, the blown diffuser analogy doesn't work here. F1 had engine freeze and no improvements were allowed on the V8. But even taking that into consideration, Ferrari still missed the tricks with blown diffuser. The 2012 Sauber with the Ferrari engine had the best blown diffuser exhaust design, which incentivized Newey to copy it and incorporate on the RB9. Ferrari on the other hand refused to copy Sauber's design and kept their chimney exhaust system. Sounds familiar?

The "strength" of the F1-75 was the flexi planks. As soon as Ferrari lost that "trick", it lost all the performance. Again, sounds familiar?

I don't see any hopes for the future, unfortunately. It is the same bunch who will design next year's car. They are not the best of the lot so there isn't any realistic chance of next year's car being "great". Had Ferrari recruited some well known and capable names who won championships, then sure, there was a chance. But that's not the case and expecting otherwise is nothing but wishful thinking.

but this same team was capable of discovering and implementing the flexi plank concept. So the engineers aren't completely lost. The technical directive cratered the performance OVERNIGHT.

now, it may have been that the Red Bull concept would prove to be superior and have a higher celiing, but we'll never know that.

and it also seems that during the course of this season, we have sacrificed some one lap performance for race performance. And I'm thinking this sacrice has made our performance on the new tyre even worse. But i don't think we're investing all that much into these tweaks. This car is trash.

[tifosi1993]

but this same team was capable of discovering and implementing the flexi plank concept. So the engineers aren't completely lost. The technical directive cratered the performance OVERNIGHT.

now, it may have been that the Red Bull concept would prove to be superior and have a higher celiing, but we'll never know that.

and it also seems that during the course of this season, we have sacrificed some one lap performance for race performance. And I'm thinking this sacrice has made our performance on the new tyre even worse. But i don't think we're investing all that much into these tweaks. This car is trash.

It wasn't a "concept". It was a grey zone that Ferrari and few other teams were exploiting until the FIA clamped it down. And also it doesn't say much about Ferrari's technical prowess when it still can't find answers and claw back that lost performance, after that one little trick got thrown out.

Red Bull on the other hand is a true concept and the best one. How many races RB needs to win for you to accept that?

Yeah, this car is trash and the people who had designed it are average at best. And the same people will also design SF23's predecessor, so don't expect any fairy tale resurgence with next year's car. Ferrari needs new blood, they need to hire those championships winning technical minds and their expertise. But it seems they can't allure those people to join. Mainly cause no wants to move to Italy from GB.

[TTRSMAD]

It wasn't a "concept". It was a grey zone that Ferrari and few other teams were exploiting until the FIA clamped it down. And also it doesn't say much about Ferrari's technical prowess when it still can't find answers and claw back that lost performance, after that one little trick got thrown out.

Red Bull on the other hand is a true concept and the best one. How many races RB needs to win for you to accept that?

Yeah, this car is trash and the people who had designed it are average at best. And the same people will also design SF23's predecessor, so don't expect any fairy tale resurgence with next year's car. Ferrari needs new blood, they need to hire those championships winning technical minds and their expertise. But it seems they can't allure those people to join. Mainly cause no wants to move to Italy from GB.

The Red Bull concept is the best because Ferrari was not able to adapt the F1- 75 to TD39 because it was conceived around that grey area. The F1-75 was better race car than the RB18, well that is my opinion. The front end, the braking and the

traction out of corners was marvelous. They lost sight of it because of Red Bull straight line speed but next year they will correct it by taking risks on the suspension side which is what they should of done after TD39. Sealing the floor is key to get

downforce and to get the tires to work in a wide operating window. Red Bull concept was able to thrive thanks to their vehicle dynamics, the only team that was not porpoising from the start because Newey vast knowledge on floor aero. Next year,

Ferrari will come back strong, I have no doubt.

[Cavallino]

It wasn't a "concept". It was a grey zone that Ferrari and few other teams were exploiting until the FIA clamped it down. And also it doesn't say much about Ferrari's technical prowess when it still can't find answers and claw back that lost performance, after that one little trick got thrown out.

Red Bull on the other hand is a true concept and the best one. How many races RB needs to win for you to accept that?

Yeah, this car is trash and the people who had designed it are average at best. And the same people will also design SF23's predecessor, so don't expect any fairy tale resurgence with next year's car. Ferrari needs new blood, they need to hire those championships winning technical minds and their expertise. But it seems they can't allure those people to join. Mainly cause no wants to move to Italy from GB.

i thought it was because Max was some next level driver, that's what this forum and Sky has led me to believe. (sarcasm)

So flexi floors is a grey area, flexi wings, flexi drs is a concept. got it.

[Brembo]

The best food; vino; tourism; music; Italy has it all!! The tech minds will forget why they are there!! Go GB !!

[tifosi1993]

i thought it was because Max was some next level driver, that's what this forum and Sky has led me to believe. (sarcasm)

So flexi floors is a grey area, flexi wings, flexi drs is a concept. got it.

What are you even talking about? Carbon will always flex and bend under high pressure and velocity. "Flexi" planks, wings etc are all "banned" by the FIA. The RB platform isn't "flexi", its actually very stable. It never had any bouncing problem like others had.

[Cavallino]

What are you even talking about? Carbon will always flex and bend under high pressure and velocity. "Flexi" planks, wings etc are all "banned" by the FIA. The RB platform isn't "flexi", its actually very stable. It never had any bouncing problem like others had.

they're not at all banned (except what's explicitly banned by TD39). because like you said, carbon fibre will always bend. but there are limits to the flexing allowed by the FIA , and exploiting that is ( just one of many ) things that red bull is doing better right now. you don't recall how far Red Bull pushed this in 2020? nah of ocurse not, it's a concept.


and it won't always bend. You can add more layers to your carbon fibre composite to make it sturdy enough to take the loads of 320kph

[Brembo]

Charles is on POLE !! Quali was today. Very flexi results! Ferrari has the fiber for podium finish!