Leclerc vs. Verstappen, what's your take?

[Toothlessrage*]

So, I had quite a colorful argument/debate with a fellow SF fan regarding the topic - Leclerc vs. Verstappen.

I wouldn't say Verstappen isn't a generational talent, but I'd put Leclerc right up there with him.

His battles with Verstappen through his Karting days, the Silverstone GP in 2019, the Bahrain GP in 2022, and so on,
has convinced me that Leclerc has that champion in him.

But, unfortunately, luck hasn't been on his side.



I would like your opinions on this topic!

[PURE PASSION]

It's simple
When Lec has a car that can trust, he can do wonders. He is at least on the same level as Ves , Ham etc.
And my personal opinion is that he has something more ,something extra even from them.
It's just that the team has issues for years now to built a solid , balanced, fast car.
If / when he will have a good / balanced car he will be almost unbeatable.
That's the feeling I have for him since he was in F2.

[GoodtimesF1]

I will say this as a Ferrari fan from the Netherlands that can't stand Verstappen (most of it caused by the Dutch fans that went from "F1 is boring" to being F1 experts since Verstappen joined the grid). I think Charles is a very talented driver but I feel like many of the drivers on the grid are just that. Very talented. Ofcourse there are a few that should not be there (coughStrollcough) but certainly more than half of them deserve their place in f1. I believe most of them will also be able to fight for the championship if given the right car. I hate having to admit this but I think Verstappen is just on a different level. Not saying he would win the championship in an inferior car but he can clearly bring something extra and that is the difference that will count over a whole season.

[jgonzalesm6]

It's simple
When Lec has a car that can trust, he can do wonders. He is at least on the same level as Ves , Ham etc.
And my personal opinion is that he has something more ,something extra even from them.
It's just that the team has issues for years now to built a solid , balanced, fast car.
If / when he will have a good / balanced car he will be almost unbeatable.
That's the feeling I have for him since he was in F2.

Good post. I would agree as well.

[Rishu]

I think both are phenomenally talented. Leclerc doesn't have championships to show but anyone doubting him can see how he stands against a 7 time world champion. Verstappen has a slight edge, he has been fighting for championships for past 4-5 years. It has helped him develop more, specially on the mental side of things. He is going lesser for those typical Verstappen bone-head moves, he is thinking the longer game. Charles unfortunately has not had such privilege yet, however he has shown all signs he would match up to Max given a title worthy car. We need to see this fight in F1, Max vs Charles, that would be epic

[jgonzalesm6]

I think both are phenomenally talented. Leclerc doesn't have championships to show but anyone doubting him can see how he stands against a 7 time world champion. Verstappen has a slight edge, he has been fighting for championships for past 4-5 years. It has helped him develop more, specially on the mental side of things. He is going lesser for those typical Verstappen bone-head moves, he is thinking the longer game. Charles unfortunately has not had such privilege yet, however he has shown all signs he would match up to Max given a title worthy car. We need to see this fight in F1, Max vs Charles, that would be epic

Max has a team and a car built for Max and Max only. The car is front loaded to Max's driving style.

You would think Ferrari and Leclerc would have designed a car to Leclerc's driving style already.....but they haven't.

[FerrariF60]

Max has a team and a car built for Max and Max only. The car is front loaded to Max's driving style.

You would think Ferrari and Leclerc would have designed a car to Leclerc's driving style already.....but they haven't.

don't know as to WHY tehy haven't yet; they new sainz would NOT be on board in 2025 right from the beginning of 2024, they could have build a car to Charles's driving style. why did they NOT do it??

[Cavallino]

how many multiple world champions does Leclerc need to destroy in the same car?

[patrese86]

I think Leclerc is the second best driver on the grid behind Max. You can’t say he’s better because he’s not 4 times WDC. He’s drove average cars, he’s driving one right now and doing great but so is Max and Max is winning. There’s no definitive way to know as always when comparing drivers for different manufacturers but what Max is doing is mental when you look at his team mates. When was the last time a team mate beat max on more performance? Lewis Beat Charles in the China Sprint, not to disparage Charles but Hamilton beat him fair and square and we won’t see it very often but it happened.

[JPZ]

I think Leclerc is the second best driver on the grid behind Max. You can’t say he’s better because he’s not 4 times WDC. He’s drove average cars, he’s driving one right now and doing great but so is Max and Max is winning. There’s no definitive way to know as always when comparing drivers for different manufacturers but what Max is doing is mental when you look at his team mates. When was the last time a team mate beat max on more performance? Lewis Beat Charles in the China Sprint, not to disparage Charles but Hamilton beat him fair and square and we won’t see it very often but it happened.

To be fair, Leclerc has had both a 4x and now a 7x champion as teammate.

[PURE PASSION]

I think Leclerc is the second best driver on the grid behind Max. You can’t say he’s better because he’s not 4 times WDC. He’s drove average cars, he’s driving one right now and doing great but so is Max and Max is winning. There’s no definitive way to know as always when comparing drivers for different manufacturers but what Max is doing is mental when you look at his team mates. When was the last time a team mate beat max on more performance? Lewis Beat Charles in the China Sprint, not to disparage Charles but Hamilton beat him fair and square and we won’t see it very often but it happened.

Max has a car tailor made to his likings from day1 .
For a driver to deliver has to have a car that can trust .
Max even when he doesn't have a fast car , most of the times he has a stable can thay can push it to near 100%
LEC problem with his ears for years wads not only that they where bot fast enough ,but that they have balance issues and are unpredictable, so much thay the driver had no confidence to go flat out.
When Max had similar issues he also was nowhere.
And when he had a some kind of a neutral car compere to his teammates likings, Perez also beat him ( and it was Perez not HAM)

[racingbradley]

I think that if Charles and Max drove the same car there would be nothing between them.

[Cavallino]

I think that if Charles and Max drove the same car there would be nothing between them.

or Charles would win, then Max will cry when you actually race him, just like he always did.

[Alonsomaniac]

Both did drive for Van Amersfoort Racing, in different seasons. Old Frits van Amersfoort said: There is almost nothing between them. But if you want to qualify in front, take Charles. He is the fastest of the two, but only by a small margin. If you want to race, take Max. He is the better racer. But again, only by a small margin.

[Dune]

Max has a team and a car built for Max and Max only. The car is front loaded to Max's driving style.

You would think Ferrari and Leclerc would have designed a car to Leclerc's driving style already.....but they haven't.

Max has a team that gave him multiple championship cars. Ferrari is clearly not able to do the same for Charles.

[nani_s23]

It’s simple.

Max had the car & was able to claim 4 WDC.
Charles never had that privilege, but we did see the glimpse of it in 2022 first half.

While coming wheel to wheel racing… It’s Charles over Max. Reason Max is very dirty when having wheel to wheel & we’ve seen many times. But Charles does the pure racing, knows how to attack & defend .. doesn’t go aggressive or pushes someone off.

I was waiting for Max vs Leclerc battle since 2019. It isn’t happening anytime soon.

[FerrariF60]

It’s simple.

Max had the car & was able to claim 4 WDC.
Charles never had that privilege, but we did see the glimpse of it in 2022 first half.

While coming wheel to wheel racing… It’s Charles over Max. Reason Max is very dirty when having wheel to wheel & we’ve seen many times. But Charles does the pure racing, knows how to attack & defend .. doesn’t go aggressive or pushes someone off.

I was waiting for Max vs Leclerc battle since 2019. It isn’t happening anytime soon.

Sadly it won’t happen soon until Ferrari gives Charles something to fight with…a car that can fight for wins

[ntukza]

It’s simple.

Max had the car & was able to claim 4 WDC.
Charles never had that privilege, but we did see the glimpse of it in 2022 first half.

While coming wheel to wheel racing… It’s Charles over Max. Reason Max is very dirty when having wheel to wheel & we’ve seen many times. But Charles does the pure racing, knows how to attack & defend .. doesn’t go aggressive or pushes someone off.

I was waiting for Max vs Leclerc battle since 2019. It isn’t happening anytime soon.

I often feel like Leclerc's lines into corners are sometimes a bit dodgy when he's looking to overtake, causing him to lose time.

I would like to believe Leclerc is the quicker and more talented in terms of pure potential, but at this moment I believe Max is overall the better driver.

[Msdiabl0]

It’s simple.

Max had the car & was able to claim 4 WDC.
Charles never had that privilege, but we did see the glimpse of it in 2022 first half.

While coming wheel to wheel racing… It’s Charles over Max. Reason Max is very dirty when having wheel to wheel & we’ve seen many times. But Charles does the pure racing, knows how to attack & defend .. doesn’t go aggressive or pushes someone off.

I was waiting for Max vs Leclerc battle since 2019. It isn’t happening anytime soon.

Wheel to wheel battle Charles over max? Please give me what you have been smoking. Noway on earth will that ever be true. Max is balls out crazy when it comes to fighting for position no one on this grid will take the risks he does. Leclerc is a little puppy next to him. Over a lap pace I'm sure you guys have been watching recent qualifying sessions? I used to believe leclerc is the best qualifier on the grid, not too sure about that now. 2022 leclerc did what vettel do In 2018, several mistakes from him and the team derailed our season, max would have done a better job than him in that car that is for sure, leclerc has been too soft with the team.

[Hornet]

One thing I've learned in the years of supporting Ferrari post Schumi, is that being a Ferrari fan doesnt mean we should not recognize the the talent of others who are not with Ferrari.
I disliked Alonso, and Vettel when they were beating us, only to admit they were the greatest of their generation when they joined Ferrari.

Today, Max is the greatest of his generation of drivers. He has the ability to extract more out of the car, and is more consistent than the competitors around him.
Its easy to say he destroy his teammates because Red Buil build the car around him, whatever that means. But people used to say the same about Schumi, or Alonso too. I believe they destroyed their team mates simply because they have that edge over the rest.

I dont think Charles is at the same level with Max yet. Max has an edge especially when it comes to consistency. Charles can be brilliantly fast at times, but he also makes minor mistakes here and there from time to time.

[Always44]

Both are great but Max would beat Charles 8 times out of 10 in the same car.

[PURE PASSION]

Both are great but Max would beat Charles 8 times out of 10 in the same car.

So to youn , Max would beat Lec 8/10 . Lec IS beating Ham = Max would destroy Ham !!!

[PURE PASSION]

One thing I've learned in the years of supporting Ferrari post Schumi, is that being a Ferrari fan doesnt mean we should not recognize the the talent of others who are not with Ferrari.
I disliked Alonso, and Vettel when they were beating us, only to admit they were the greatest of their generation when they joined Ferrari.

Today, Max is the greatest of his generation of drivers. He has the ability to extract more out of the car, and is more consistent than the competitors around him.
Its easy to say he destroy his teammates because Red Buil build the car around him, whatever that means. But people used to say the same about Schumi, or Alonso too. I believe they destroyed their team mates simply because they have that edge over the rest.

I dont think Charles is at the same level with Max yet. Max has an edge especially when it comes to consistency. Charles can be brilliantly fast at times, but he also makes minor mistakes here and there from time to time.

I say it again .Its all down to the connection between driver -car . when you have an unbalanced car you make mistakes and have no consistency . RedBull with Ves mast of the times has at least a stable (aerodynamically) car . In the few times they too screw the set up and the car drop out of the window , Ves ALSO was nowhere and made silly mistakes. the difference is that Lec had 8 /10 times on his career with Ferrari. unstable/unpredicable and slow cars . So much so he forced to overdrive them to bring a good result . This is confirmed multiple times . Even now . Ham came and is driving like an midfield driver simply because the car is NOWHERE for him . Do you think Ham lost his driving skills from his dominate years with merc to now ????
I bet everything that if we could bring Ves tomorrow he woulsnt do any better then Lec . He would swear the team in every team radio and in every interview (thats the main difference he would have to Lec)
Thats my opinion from what i have seeing on track and on analyses etc. i dont see just the results.
If a time comes and finally Ferrari deliver a stable /fast/ consistent car and Lec still continue to make mistakes. i will definitely criticize him and acknowledge that he isnt a champion material driver .

[Cavallino]

I say it again .Its all down to the connection between driver -car . when you have an unbalanced car you make mistakes and have no consistency . RedBull with Ves mast of the times has at least a stable (aerodynamically) car . In the few times they too screw the set up and the car drop out of the window , Ves ALSO was nowhere and made silly mistakes. the difference is that Lec had 8 /10 times on his career with Ferrari. unstable/unpredicable and slow cars . So much so he forced to overdrive them to bring a good result . This is confirmed multiple times . Even now . Ham came and is driving like an midfield driver simply because the car is NOWHERE for him . Do you think Ham lost his driving skills from his dominate years with merc to now ????
I bet everything that if we could bring Ves tomorrow he woulsnt do any better then Lec . He would swear the team in every team radio and in every interview (thats the main difference he would have to Lec)
Thats my opinion from what i have seeing on track and on analyses etc. i dont see just the results.
If a time comes and finally Ferrari deliver a stable /fast/ consistent car and Lec still continue to make mistakes. i will definitely criticize him and acknowledge that he isnt a champion material driver .

Ham historically is even worse with bad cars.

Leclerc's drives during that 2020-2021 timespan were incredible, they went under the radar, but it's something we haven't seen the likes of Ham and Verstappen really do.

Verstappen, until he drives something else, and we see what happened with Vettel, it's fair to wonder if he is just a "Newey baby".

[Dune]

Ham historically is even worse with bad cars.

Leclerc's drives during that 2020-2021 timespan were incredible, they went under the radar, but it's something we haven't seen the likes of Ham and Verstappen really do.

Verstappen, until he drives something else, and we see what happened with Vettel, it's fair to wonder if he is just a "Newey baby".

I would agree, but all this doesn’t matter until Ferrari will give Charles a car to compete for championships.

[ntukza]

One thing I've learned in the years of supporting Ferrari post Schumi, is that being a Ferrari fan doesnt mean we should not recognize the the talent of others who are not with Ferrari.
I disliked Alonso, and Vettel when they were beating us, only to admit they were the greatest of their generation when they joined Ferrari.

Today, Max is the greatest of his generation of drivers. He has the ability to extract more out of the car, and is more consistent than the competitors around him.
Its easy to say he destroy his teammates because Red Buil build the car around him, whatever that means. But people used to say the same about Schumi, or Alonso too. I believe they destroyed their team mates simply because they have that edge over the rest.

I dont think Charles is at the same level with Max yet. Max has an edge especially when it comes to consistency. Charles can be brilliantly fast at times, but he also makes minor mistakes here and there from time to time.

That's not very reliable though, is it? All you're showing is that we shouldn't take you seriously. You're not objectively capable of recognising talent if you only do so when they are driving for us.

I've disliked Hamilton throughout his Merc dominance (I still don't like the fact that we got him) but unlike a lot of people on here, I never doubted his talent. You don't beat Alonso in your rookie year unless you're something special.

[ntukza]

I say it again .Its all down to the connection between driver -car . when you have an unbalanced car you make mistakes and have no consistency . RedBull with Ves mast of the times has at least a stable (aerodynamically) car . In the few times they too screw the set up and the car drop out of the window , Ves ALSO was nowhere and made silly mistakes. the difference is that Lec had 8 /10 times on his career with Ferrari. unstable/unpredicable and slow cars . So much so he forced to overdrive them to bring a good result . This is confirmed multiple times . Even now . Ham came and is driving like an midfield driver simply because the car is NOWHERE for him . Do you think Ham lost his driving skills from his dominate years with merc to now ????
I bet everything that if we could bring Ves tomorrow he woulsnt do any better then Lec . He would swear the team in every team radio and in every interview (thats the main difference he would have to Lec)
Thats my opinion from what i have seeing on track and on analyses etc. i dont see just the results.
If a time comes and finally Ferrari deliver a stable /fast/ consistent car and Lec still continue to make mistakes. i will definitely criticize him and acknowledge that he isnt a champion material driver .

So are you saying there's no such thing as one F1 driver being better than another?

[aroutis]

So, I had quite a colorful argument/debate with a fellow SF fan regarding the topic - Leclerc vs. Verstappen.

I wouldn't say Verstappen isn't a generational talent, but I'd put Leclerc right up there with him.

His battles with Verstappen through his Karting days, the Silverstone GP in 2019, the Bahrain GP in 2022, and so on,
has convinced me that Leclerc has that champion in him.

But, unfortunately, luck hasn't been on his side.



I would like your opinions on this topic!

He is just as good as Verstappen, it 's plain as day. What he needs is the car and team to support him, when he hss those two (which is not as frequently), the evidence is there.
The only thing that he needs to develop (and actually he has started from past half season and starts to become evident this season) is the commanding attitude towards the pitwall, the NO attitude when team is in error and to take matters into control (in short , not to be the super nice guy he has been this far to his own detriment).
I am guessing with Lewis as his wingman, he knows he can no longer afford this.

[aroutis]

I say it again .Its all down to the connection between driver -car . when you have an unbalanced car you make mistakes and have no consistency . RedBull with Ves mast of the times has at least a stable (aerodynamically) car . In the few times they too screw the set up and the car drop out of the window , Ves ALSO was nowhere and made silly mistakes. the difference is that Lec had 8 /10 times on his career with Ferrari. unstable/unpredicable and slow cars . So much so he forced to overdrive them to bring a good result . This is confirmed multiple times . Even now . Ham came and is driving like an midfield driver simply because the car is NOWHERE for him . Do you think Ham lost his driving skills from his dominate years with merc to now ????
I bet everything that if we could bring Ves tomorrow he woulsnt do any better then Lec . He would swear the team in every team radio and in every interview (thats the main difference he would have to Lec)
Thats my opinion from what i have seeing on track and on analyses etc. i dont see just the results.
If a time comes and finally Ferrari deliver a stable /fast/ consistent car and Lec still continue to make mistakes. i will definitely criticize him and acknowledge that he isnt a champion material driver .

Why is it so hard for people to understand something so simple, is beyond me.

[PURE PASSION]

So are you saying there's no such thing as one F1 driver being better than another?

Of course. But it's very hard to make comparison because there many factors that affect their performance that it's not their fault and they can do nothing to fix it.
IF there was a scenario that both been on the same team with an opportunity that both can have the car to their likbut somehow the cars to have similar performance, then and only then you could compare them and made a solid verdict.
If tomorrow( let's say) Ferrari beings a dominant car and Lec dominates plus and wins and Ves have a mediocre car ,then what ? Suddenly the one gained superpowers and the other forget how to drive?