I'm just not feeling it...

[Tifosi]

I would just like to apologise if I gave the impression that I thought that Massa fans were "hard done by" on this forum in general. That was not the intention really, I only meant to add a very specific point about the fact that post German GP, this was an uncomfortable place for some Massa fans to be.

I know that to be the case for at least 3 long term Massa fans, and that is what I based my "opinion" on.

Personally, I think it's only right that drivers or their fans have to answer to criticism on the day, and I'm more than happy to admit that the way Rob & Felipe acted on that day was worthy of criticism, although it is nonsensical to believe that they deliberately acted against Ferrari's wishes to "make a point". That was a Ferrari team issue through and through IMO. It's "old ground" though.

As Suzie says, it is more difficult to cope with when it's your driver that is being blamed, and it's a simple matter of fact that there are more Alonso fans on TSN now than Massa fans, so that plays a part in it too i'm sure.

By the very nature of Massa's involvement with Ferrari during the last four years, I think it's fair to say that most Massa fans are Ferrari fans too and understand the current situation and don't hold a grudge against Alonso for the way it turned out this season. After all, Alonso did a better job in the early part of the season and Ferrari are desperate to win again. The debates from Massa/Ferrari fans were mainly about timing (11th race in - not just the significance of the date ) and method.

There have been many Alonso fans that have followed him to Ferrari (and of course TSN), and naturally, many of the ones who don't really care 2 hoots about Ferrari have been banned or been seen through pretty quickly. Obviously there are some who are attaching to Ferrari too, but we wont know by how much until he leaves!

There's a difference between fairly debating towards a point of view that is sympathetic to your favourite driver and screaming and shouting at anyone who dares to criticise him in any way whatsoever.

I find it confusing however that sometimes when the human aspect of the way in which Ferrari conduct themselves is debated, it is pretty much suggested that we should support Ferrari by counting the points as the be all and end all. That's what I don't get.

Understanding that drivers have an obligation to the team, and that it is a team sport is implicit and has absolutely nothing to do with the way Ferrari conduct themselves, yet it has absolutely everything to do with why they are different from McLaren.

Anyhoo, can't wait for Spa, it's been a ridiculously long time since I watched red cars on the track.

[Fiondella]

I would just like to apologise if I gave the impression that I thought that Massa fans were "hard done by" on this forum in general. That was not the intention really, I only meant to add a very specific point about the fact that post German GP, this was an uncomfortable place for some Massa fans to be.

I know that to be the case for at least 3 long term Massa fans, and that is what I based my "opinion" on.

Personally, I think it's only right that drivers or their fans have to answer to criticism on the day, and I'm more than happy to admit that the way Rob & Felipe acted on that day was worthy of criticism, although it is nonsensical to believe that they deliberately acted against Ferrari's wishes to "make a point". That was a Ferrari team issue through and through IMO. It's "old ground" though.

As Suzie says, it is more difficult to cope with when it's your driver that is being blamed, and it's a simple matter of fact that there are more Alonso fans on TSN now than Massa fans, so that plays a part in it too i'm sure.

By the very nature of Massa's involvement with Ferrari during the last four years, I think it's fair to say that most Massa fans are Ferrari fans too and understand the current situation and don't hold a grudge against Alonso for the way it turned out this season. After all, Alonso did a better job in the early part of the season and Ferrari are desperate to win again. The debates from Massa/Ferrari fans were mainly about timing (11th race in - not just the significance of the date ) and method.

There have been many Alonso fans that have followed him to Ferrari (and of course TSN), and naturally, many of the ones who don't really care 2 hoots about Ferrari have been banned or been seen through pretty quickly. Obviously there are some who are attaching to Ferrari too, but we wont know by how much until he leaves!

There's a difference between fairly debating towards a point of view that is sympathetic to your favourite driver and screaming and shouting at anyone who dares to criticise him in any way whatsoever.

I find it confusing however that sometimes when the human aspect of the way in which Ferrari conduct themselves is debated, it is pretty much suggested that we should support Ferrari by counting the points as the be all and end all. That's what I don't get.

Understanding that drivers have an obligation to the team, and that it is a team sport is implicit and has absolutely nothing to do with the way Ferrari conduct themselves, yet it has absolutely everything to do with why they are different from McLaren.

Anyhoo, can't wait for Spa, it's been a ridiculously long time since I watched red cars on the track.

You keep questioning the method and Ferrari management but you have never volunteered how you would have dealt with the situation. Instead, you've dismissed the question outright as not being relevant. You keep repeating yourself so I repeat how would you have dealt with the situation?

[REDARMYSOJA]

You driver-fans amaze me....
A) this is a "Team" sport
B) Massa and Alonso are "team mates" - not rivals, not enemies, not trying to take each other out and most importantly as team mates
C) they, like true Ferrari fans want the team to do best first and foremost

Now if 1 driver is faster on a particular day/time/track/tyre, and there is a danger/threat to our team winning, then I fully expect the other driver (no matter who he is) to do the team thing.

I want to make something clear, I am not a "driver fan", I am a Tifoso, I back the team, which is why I didn't have a problem with Massa ceding position to Alonso. But I don't see how anyone who has been a long time Tifosi can't have developed a special liking for Massa. He's s driver in the mold of Bandini, Regazzoni, Alesi and even Gilles, passionate, giving it his all and thinking of the team first. That's just the sort of person the "true Tifosi" really love. But in the end, we do support the team. I see some of these same passionate qualities in Alonso, and I do like Alonso and am glad he's with Ferrari, but we'll have to wait and see if he is a true team player, that's my only doubt about him.

[REDARMYSOJA]

Personally, I think it's only right that drivers or their fans have to answer to criticism on the day, and I'm more than happy to admit that the way Rob & Felipe acted on that day was worthy of criticism, although it is nonsensical to believe that they deliberately acted against Ferrari's wishes to "make a point". That was a Ferrari team issue through and through IMO. It's "old ground" though.

As Suzie says, it is more difficult to cope with when it's your driver that is being blamed, and it's a simple matter of fact that there are more Alonso fans on TSN now than Massa fans, so that plays a part in it too i'm sure.

By the very nature of Massa's involvement with Ferrari during the last four years, I think it's fair to say that most Massa fans are Ferrari fans too and understand the current situation and don't hold a grudge against Alonso for the way it turned out this season. After all, Alonso did a better job in the early part of the season and Ferrari are desperate to win again. The debates from Massa/Ferrari fans were mainly about timing (11th race in - not just the significance of the date ) and method.

.

Well said. And I was also disappointed in Massa the day it happened. He's benefited from team orders(Kimi, China)
so he knows this is how it works and if the shoe had been on the other foot, Alonso would have been asked to move. And you're right that timing played a big part in the sore feelings, a victory for Massa on the anniversary of his injury would have been sweet, but Ferrari are in this for the team, not individual accomplishments, so as ugly as it was, it was done out of necessity. I understand why Felipe didn't like what happened, I didn't either, but sometimes you just have to take one for the team, and that raises Felipe's stature even more in my eyes.

[racingbradley]

i have just logged on and seen what a can of worms I have opened!!!!!
My final post yesterday was intended to end the discussion with NJB13.
As I said earlier we all have different opinions and this forum has always allowed us to air them----it just seems lately that we are in the minority!!!!!! I expect there are reasons for that!!!!!!!
Most Massa fans respect Alonso but might have a problem warming to him. I hope that in time we will grow to love him if only for his achievements as we did Michael.
We will still hope that our man comes back stronger next year and gives us something to cheer about.

[Greig]

Most Massa fans respect Alonso but might have a problem warming to him. I hope that in time we will grow to love him if only for his achievements as we did Michael.

That does not make much sense to me Most Alonso fans respect Massa as well, but I bet they don't really care for him to win ahead of Alonso

[racingbradley]

I guess we cannot expect Massa will win over Alonso this year------at least after Germany it doesn't look that way but I did say that I hope he does better next year.
That's about it really.

[Tifosi]

You keep questioning the method and Ferrari management but you have never volunteered how you would have dealt with the situation. Instead, you've dismissed the question outright as not being relevant. You keep repeating yourself so I repeat how would you have dealt with the situation?

To be honest, I don't really think it's up to me. It obviously could have been handled better and Ferrari (and we) know it.

However, i've stated before that in my opinion - from a management point of view - it's worrying that it was allowed to happen. The "it was Felipe's decision to let him through" defense would actually have been a good defense if was remotely believable based on the way it was done and handled by the key players afterwards. However, because of the way it was handled, it was clear that this eventuality had never been properly discussed and it would seem that Massa and Rob weren't fully signed up for how such an eventuality would be played out.

I mean, if Massa made the decision off his own bat, or even if it had been properly discussed as an eventuality, then why did he have a face like a smacked bum for so long afterwards (way into the following week).

To blame them for what happened misses the point really as they are team players and they know they work for the team. If they were desenting, then it was a rather uncharacteristic and pointless move. Nope, it was blatant for a reason, and that was because it wasn't discussed and agreed as an eventuality before it arose.

The result was messy.

[Meiga]

Well said. And I was also disappointed in Massa the day it happened. He's benefited from team orders(Kimi, China)
so he knows this is how it works and if the shoe had been on the other foot, Alonso would have been asked to move. And you're right that timing played a big part in the sore feelings, a victory for Massa on the anniversary of his injury would have been sweet, but Ferrari are in this for the team, not individual accomplishments, so as ugly as it was, it was done out of necessity. I understand why Felipe didn't like what happened, I didn't either, but sometimes you just have to take one for the team, and that raises Felipe's stature even more in my eyes.

I understand why Massa didn't like what happened, and I felt sorry for him too. But I cannot understand why him and Smedley decided to make both the instructions and the move that obvious, they had to know that by acting that way they were going to put Ferrari in a difficult situation with the stewards - and that is not exactly taking one for the team, to be honest.

[Meiga]

To blame them for what happened misses the point really as they are team players and they know they work for the team. If they were desenting, then it was a rather uncharacteristic and pointless move. Nope, it was blatant for a reason, and that was because it wasn't discussed and agreed as an eventuality before it arose.
The result was messy.

That is a sensible explanation, but worrying in what it says of the improvisation of the strategy on the team's side...

[justjesper]

I understand why Massa didn't like what happened, and I felt sorry for him too. But I cannot understand why him and Smedley decided to make both the instructions and the move that obvious, they had to know that by acting that way they were going to put Ferrari in a difficult situation with the stewards - and that is not exactly taking one for the team, to be honest.

I think Stefano Domenicali should had given the instruction to Massa.

This way Ferrari had left Felipe's team "unharmed" It would also had shown that the Instruction came from the top.
It was done to clumsy and had it been well instructed before the race ( which I do not think was done clear enough ) this situation would never had happened.
As to how obvious the move was, I think it's hard not too as we have seen these " Team orders " happen year after year. Although a bit more clever then us.

I think the rule about the team orders are a good rule but of cause it makes it a bit more difficult for a team to orchestrate a race.
Some times a driver will tell the media that they are in a position to help a teammate win the championship and make it clear to everyone that that is there intension to do so.
In that case I think a driver can move over with out any problems. I think that is right, no ?

So had the team made there intension clear form the beginning then could Massa not had told the media that he was there to help Fernando, and there would not had been any problem with the move.

[scuderia_nano]

Fernando has adapted to the Ferrari well. He is the talent and Ferrari is the team.

I never liked the IDEA of Fernando and Ferrari together. But, today, When I look at performances, The Red team needs him and He needs the red team.

For eg. How Kimi and Massa struggled with tyres temperature issues in 2007-08-09, Ferrari had to baby sit these guys. Today Fernando has nothing of that sort needed. Felipe however still struggles with same problems. He infact admitted that because its more on to the drivers and less of Strategies, he is struggling in the races.

Shows us why Fernando was hired by this team. And I wont be shocked to see Massa leave especially after all the commotion he and Rob caused post Germany.

The thread creator in my opinion has got it wrong.

[TheProdigalSon]

To be honest, I don't really think it's up to me. It obviously could have been handled better and Ferrari (and we) know it.

However, i've stated before that in my opinion - from a management point of view - it's worrying that it was allowed to happen. The "it was Felipe's decision to let him through" defense would actually have been a good defense if was remotely believable based on the way it was done and handled by the key players afterwards. However, because of the way it was handled, it was clear that this eventuality had never been properly discussed and it would seem that Massa and Rob weren't fully signed up for how such an eventuality would be played out.

I mean, if Massa made the decision off his own bat, or even if it had been properly discussed as an eventuality, then why did he have a face like a smacked bum for so long afterwards (way into the following week).

To blame them for what happened misses the point really as they are team players and they know they work for the team. If they were desenting, then it was a rather uncharacteristic and pointless move. Nope, it was blatant for a reason, and that was because it wasn't discussed and agreed as an eventuality before it arose.

The result was messy.

The reason why is because after what happened in Australia Ferrari obviously created the 3 second rule meaning if the team mate behind could stay within 3 seconds of the team mate infront then the team mate infront would have to handover the position.

Where the misunderstanding lay was that it wasn't clarified if the driver infront still had to let the team mate past if he had no cars infront of him. Ferrari were clearly not expecting to have to make that decision (afterall Alonso had qualified ahead of massa and would have been ahead of him if Vettel hadn't tried to force him into a wall)

[Grillo]

Alonso is the driver I support, I want Massa to be able to race Alonso in equal terms but this season I think Massa had been struggling with the tyres more races than not, Alonso had made some mistakes but he normaly had the speed to fight for the win and he had quite a few more points for the title, then Ferrari (both drivers) had done two awfully unlucky weekends in the previous races. That was it. What Ferrari did is understandable, nothing McLaren or Red Bull hadn't done if needed (in fact they had done it this season and in the past). It was awful because it was a swap for the GP win and could have been don in a better way, other than that nothing to write home about really.

[scuderia_nano]

we never gave a team order in Germany

I Second this!