Full Member
My concern is now that RB were found guilty for 2021.Originally Posted by Greig
Looking at the 2022 season so far, I feel the same continued this year as well.
If any penalty is incoming … would it be for 2022 as well?
Because 2022 season financial audit results will be released next year only.
Full Member
According to me, from here on its game of political strength in F1.
Ferrari/Mercs vs RB.
Full Member
My concern is now that RB were found guilty for 2021.
Looking at the 2022 season so far, I feel the same continued this year as well.
If any penalty is incoming … would it be for 2022 as well?
Because 2022 season financial audit results will be released next year only.
Full Member
Masi proved you 100% right! Lewis IS @ 8 WDCs with an '' !
Full Member
25 second time penalty to each driver for this year and 15 seconds for last year . take away the advantage. Honda engine went from a grenade to rocket ship that would have cost a fortune.
Full Member
It did. Honda went thru 65+ engines while at Mclaren(3 years)....that's not including bench testing. Toro Rosso took the Honda engine in and it was a marriage made in heaven. RedBull took the Honda engine after 2 years with Toro Rosso and the rest is history.
It's not how start but how you finish.
Full Member
but red bull funded all that at toro rosso
Full Member
It always has been. I doubt we have any idea just how much politics play a part in determining success in F1.
Ferrari had a stronghold in the 2000s, they still do to a certain extent. It's been said many many times how F1 needs Ferrari to be competitive. That brings views and revenue, they don't want to lose that.
Mercedes gets a 3 year jump start on hybrid engines, Toto seems to be in tight with the FIA that protects his team's advantage, and Lewis the British Queen is protected by the sport to set records. Hamilton winning gained him a huge fanbase, and everyone else wanted to see them lose was good for business until the audience became more and more vocal about Mercedes domination and stopped watching. Suddenly, Red Bull are now in the mix.
After 7 dominating years by Mercedes, Red Bull suddenly are competition in 2021. As mentioned, the Honda engine went from a powerless grenade to a powerhouse in just a couple of years. People have been talking about Max Verstappen being the next big thing for some time, but nobody will really see that unless he has a competitive car. Low and behold he gets one. A tight fight, until Hamilton gets put on their back foot and then storm through the field like the car has another 100 hp (Imola). Verstappen starts running away with the championship, the rules get changed, penalties get thrown and it remains close. Going into the final part of 2021, Mercedes suddenly has a rocket ship that can help Hamilton have a miraculous comeback to win his record breaking championship. Right down to the very last race of the season. Then Masi said "ya'll are going to race for it, and I'm going to make that happen". We know what happened, and he got canned. But the highest views in recent F1 history (maybe ever), that's great for business and $$$
Max the new face of F1? Horner doing his job behind the scenes to ensure he has his era. Maybe it only lasts 2 years like it did with Alonso. The team cheats the budget cap to build a better car, and likely will get a slap on the wrist.
Lawrence Stroll throwing his check book around, buying Mercedes cars, and not staying within budget either. Good thing Toto has invested interest with Aston Martin.
Even with a budget cap, are we likely to see teams like Haas and AlphaTauri battle for championships? Don't count on it. It's a better show if Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, and maybe McLaren are the contenders.
Many will throw up "conspiracy theorist alert" signs and say that the story of F1 is written on track. But these things did happen, regardless what one chooses to believe. Some will wonder how much of F1's story is already written, before the ever get to the track.
Last edited by SS454; 11th October 2022 at 17:35.
Banned
LULZ.
I doubt it. I see Merc ignoring the cost cap next year just like RBR. Ferrari will be left holding the bag while Merc and RBR battle for the championship spending as much as they want.
You know... for the good of the sport....
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Full Member
The blow torch is on the FIA failure to enforce the rules and failure to punish red bull adequately with severity, will cause the complete budget cap system to collapse, Ferrari mercedes will walk away from cap and ensure its demise.The FIA have the blow torch on them, and with that the entire F1 sport.
Banned
Must better to just abandon the cost cap system, it's entirely moronic.
Can't pay, don't play.
Full Member
Then it turns into LeMans cars where just Toyota is participating in the top class. Boring.
F1 needs to be economically sustainable to some degree and encourage other manufacturers or even privateer teams to enter. Clearly the organization around implementing the current budget cap is a total joke and F1/FIA have no control over it. When teams are permitted to submit their own records after the year is completed, and then it takes nearly a full year for that information to get sorted out. That's ridiculous.
Darn Tootin'!
There's a good chance it won't be in 2023. Hopefully the entry of Ferrari, Renault, and Cadillac will mix things up.
At this stage F1 needs to get off its high horse and learn from other series where the racing is better, more accessible, and comes with less dramatic, pompous bickering. The powers-that-be have chosen the fickle who will pay vs. the loyal who have stayed. It is what it is.
On Red Bull exceeding the cost cap: nothing to see here. The FIA is perfectly fine with race officials needing hours to check if a car is 10 lengths behind the safety car so of course they will take months to determine any penalties for this breach. It will get glossed over when the next issue comes along, depending on how quickly Netflix can provide the script.
Full Member
Did you not learn from the token system what these constraints result in? When a team hits the jackpot in development and there are constraints on how the other teams can develop in response, you just get one team dominating brutally for a decade. That's the lesson of Mercedes dominance. By the time the token system was abolished in 17', Mercedes had a good two seasons ahead of everybody else, and it was only last year that Honda caught up to them.
Privateers are making a **** ton of money off F1 in profits, which is why they don't Andretti in their club and bigger grid. That should tell you all you need to know about the cost cap.
Full Member
While the FIA opens the infringement procedure for the #BudgetCapGate, Max Verstappen celebrates his 2nd title driving best of all. Ferrari will have to be very clear in its 2023 strategy / driver choices if it wants to challenge him.
@Giuliano Duchessa
\m/HEAVY METAL\m/
Proof where Red Bull spent over the budget
https://twitter.com/f1trolls_/status/1579787582002454528?s=20&t=Rz6CtOk0ULl4fVUaWV7L3A
Full Member
[QUOTE=nani_s23;1072068]While the FIA opens the infringement procedure for the #BudgetCapGate, Max Verstappen celebrates his 2nd title driving best of all. Ferrari will have to be very clear in its 2023 strategy / driver choices if it wants to challenge him.
@Giuliano Duchessa[/QUOTE
With no driver 1,2 between Seb and Charles the results were for sure Charles got to show how great he is. Let Carlos and Charles do the same. Ferrari will need all the points they can get for the next coming seasons. I don't see Max as that much better than either of Ferrari's drivers.
Banned
And most of 2014 to 2021 wasn't boring with just Merc drivers competing and everyone else bringing up the rear.
I was at Indy in 2005, only 6 cars races but Michael won. Im okay with that.
If you want F1 to be the pinnacle of the motorsports, it's zenith, you can't artificially limit innovation or the amount of money it costs to innovate. FIA is trying is applying woke ideology of equity to something which fails as anything less than a pure meritocracy. Motorsport is social Darwinism at it's finest and should have remained so. What we are going to have left in short order is a spec series where all the cars are the same save for the color. It's going to be worse than NASCAR.
\m/HEAVY METAL\m/
Amen!!!
Full Member
Indy 2005 Rubens had to and did let Michael Pass. Fans were throwing bottles on the track in disgust.Amen!!!
Banned
There were quite a few Fosters cans on the track, but I think it was because 14 drivers (7 teams) decided to be cry babies and park their cars. I doubt it had anything to do with Michael and Rubens. At least not from where I was sitting that day.
Full Member
Privateer teams making loads of money?? Where are you getting this from? No privateer team has managed to last, they have all been bought out or dissolved. Williams was the most successful, and they couldn't sustain despite always having paid drivers. They sold, and the new owners still require pay drivers to stay afloat.
Full Member
2014-2020 sucked. When Ferrari were dominant, all non Ferrari fans were in an uproar. Same with RBR 2010-2013 (even though 2010 and 2012 were still somewhat competitive). The Mercedes domination was the worst and was heavily in part to their enormous budget.
If anyone would want F1 to be like the 2005 US GP where it's Ferrari and 2 junk teams, then I feel sorry for them.
Teams spending upwards of $200m on their F1 team (including driver and other expenses not in the cap), is plenty to continue with innovation and being able to lead the world of motorsport. With the exception of Lemans prototypes, I don't think any other form of racing was even a fifth of the costs of the current budgets.
I don't consider a level playing field in sports as woke in even the smallest degree. The budget cap doesn't even make F1 fair between the teams. The same as considering cheating okay, so let the team with the best PED's run free. We all know cheating happens in all sports, but the idea is to try and prevent them to keep a more level playing field.
If you want "if you can't pay, don't play", then that's exactly what will happen, just like in Lemans racing. It's almost like the rich people are scared of competition, being beaten by someone smarter when they can't just throw money around to gain success. That embodies the people like Lawrence Stroll.
Banned
That’s the point tho, isn’t it? You don’t know any other motorsport like that because no other category is the pinnacle of motorsports like F1 is supposed to be. If Merc is dominant because they spent $200MM then spend $225MM or shut up and play second fiddle.
Sport can not be a level playing field, if it is, it is no longer a sport. The rules must be the same for everyone, this I agree with. Past that, so anything that is within the rules to win. You literally describe equity and say it isn’t woke. Equity isn’t equality. Every team on the grid should have the opportunity to win. That doesn’t mean they have the ability of finances to do so.
It’s simple Social Darwinism like I said. If you can’t compete you don’t survive. Personally I support it in all forms, not just F1. It’s not a fear, again, you may be projecting or simply erroneous in your assessment. Why should Team A be hamstrung by a budget cap when they have the money available only because Team B can’t hack it? Time for Team B to step up of die off. You are punishing the successful for being successful. And for what? To promote lesser entities? For what benefit? You want to “dumb down” what is supposed to be the top form of racing. To bring it down to the least common denominator.
Doing so has zero benefit for anything in life. Sport included. Imagine Usain Bolt being told to slow down because someone else can’t keep up in the 100m dash. That’s what you’re suggesting.
Full Member
Sports should not be about the biggest budgets. A budget cap does not automatically mean each and every team in that given sport spends the maximum amount allowed. It just puts a limit on it. If Mercedes, RBR, and Red Bull are spending $145m + other expenses that bring it over $200m, it certainly doesn't mean teams like Williams or Alfa Romeo are doing the same. Same thing in pro sports. Pretty much all have some form of salary cap, though some still allow huge over spending. So in any case, there are big market teams (ex: Yankees), and small market teams (ex: A's). If Williams doesn't have $145m to spend, then too bad. They shouldn't require to spend $400m just to have a shot of competing with Mercedes or Ferrari.
In Formula 1, only 3 teams have a shot at having huge $400m budgets. Maybe just 2, since Red Bull apparently doesn't spend as much. It isn't simply available to anyone and everyone like you suggest, especially as the gap between the big budget teams and the small budget teams gets wider and wider, the Sponsorship dollars (required) will simply never be there. If the only way to success is to spend upwards of $400m, then *** is the point of anyone other than those 3 attempting to compete? The answer is the don't. They quit, sell, or rebrand. A small team could have the best people in the world, but without the money to build the parts, they die.
You ask what the benefit is. Having the best team win under the same rules and restrictions. The possibility of better competition. More brands wanting to join (Porsche and Audi already). I don't want to watch a sport where 1 team wins all the time simply because they have the most money. It also gives an illusion of greatness (cough cough, Lewis Hamilton).
Your Usain Bolt reference would be true if I wanted a Balance of Performance. Not at all. If all teams have the same rules and budget cap, and one team ends up winning every single race. Props to them.
Ferrari Affiliate
We need to ignore the cap too. And just do what RBR did. Spend on food. You know, for the good of the sport.
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
Banned
A budget cap is an artificial balance of performance regardless of if you want that or not because it prevents advancement past a specified point. It doesn't matter how brilliant your engineers are or how talented your drivers are if you're not allowed to spend the money to exploit those gifts. No one is requiring Williams to spend $400MM, there is no minimum cost cap is there? It's pretty simple, if they can't spend that much to compete, then too bad for them. Who cares? Like I keep saying; Darwinism. The lesser organism doesn't survive, and that is how it should be.
Spending $400MM doesn't need to be available to everyone, that is exactly what I am saying. You're argument against your "wokeness" is the best argument you could have possibly made for it.
The budget cap was only introduced recently, but lesser teams were still competing were they not? Even if they were unable to take on the "big three" they still showed up, did they not? So your point on why attempt to compete is irrelevant as well since they still competed. Clearly they saw a reason to. If they quit, then they quit. "and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” Survival of the fittest at it's finest.
The benefit only exists for lesser entities. You are promoting inadequacy at the detriment of excellence. You are hamstringing those who can in order to help those who can't. All that does is bring down the average. It "dumbs" everything down. It's what Harvard did by taking points off of Asian students because they were "too smart". Excellence should be rewarded, not punished. It's the same basic jealous loser mentality that made Marx write his manifesto and other losers to follow it. You can never advance failure by retarding success. All it does it bring everyone to the level of failure. Great, all the teams are equal now, they all suck. Woohoo!
What you are asking for, though you may not clearly see it, is a 28 car field where all the cars are within 3 tenths at qualifying but pole position at Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya is 1:39 in the dry. That's what you're promoting! You are promoting failure. It's a soy induced, estrogen filled, fever dream where all teams are equally crappy. Wow, now that's a sport I want to watch... Can't wait.
Banned
I've been saying this for months. Next year, when the FIA do this same dog and pony show, we will come to find out that RBR overspent again and Binotto will cry "no fair" again and then what? In the meantime they have both championships and are laughing their butts off.
Ferrari Affiliate
Shouldn't it be tho?
Isn't it about the biggest budget in EPL, in the spanish championship, in Italian championship or NBA?
Money rules supreme and now we need to somehow "see leveled field" in F1 ? Why?
F1 is all about innovation, how is innovation supposed to exist without money?
And at the end of the day, F1 (for better of worst) was always an ELITE sport. Oh yes, I know how that sounds but if you don't believe me, check the history.
"If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari" - Gilles Villeneuve
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