Australian GP 2014 Race thread

[FerrariF60]

Whats more concerning for me is that roaberg did his quickest lapin lap 19 and us lap 56...showing that with all that fuel on board they were still quicker, now thsts scary

yeah, but rosberg was in CLEAN AIR, while Fernando was stuck behind teh Force India and could not get passed him....hence the slower lap times earlier

still no excuses though....we showed that we're too &%&$@#& slow, at least for now

[Gerhard Berger]

Guys two questions just of anxiety. .
...How much hp does our engine produce with ERS? And could that 900hp thing be true?

...Freezing of the engine mean that it is for 5 years??
Or just 2014?:roll

engine is frozen for this year. Any performance upgrades to the engine can only be added at the start of 2015.

[Icon]

Whats more concerning for me is that roaberg did his quickest lapin lap 19 and us lap 56...showing that with all that fuel on board they were still quicker, now thsts scary

We did our fastest lap on Medium tyres while Rosberg did it on softs. We are slower than Merc but not by 2 seconds.

[Tony]

Whats more concerning for me is that roaberg did his quickest lapin lap 19 and us lap 56...showing that with all that fuel on board they were still quicker, now thsts scary

Keep in mind though that Ferrari appear to be having problems with their KERS (that's what I assumed they meant anyway when they said electrical problems and their engine mapping also needs improvement) so they were not running at full power... it's clearly troubling but we will have to wait and see what they can do on the development side first....

[Jas]

yh I guess so, but that's a lot of fuel and a lot of time as such in the bag! I don't know how much one lap of fuel is worth these days!

[Hornet]

engine is frozen for this year. Any performance upgrades to the engine can only be added at the start of 2015.

One thing I'm still unsure of. From my understanding, they agreed to allow small number of performance modification?

I guess this means we can't toss out our engine and present a new one. But how do they decide what can and cannot be changed

[wisepie]

If the reports about Mercedes power output are true, there appears to be such disparity in power units between Mercedes and Ferrari and Renault, that the FIA will have no choice but to allow further power unit development or be faced with a series totally dominated by the four Merc powered cars.

Didn't Renault already try to postpone the engine freeze beyond 28Feb when their teams were having problems in Bahrain? Presumably it got vetoed by FIA and Merc teams, but you're right Nick. I read somewhere that the Merc power advantage had something to do with the layout of the engine ancillaries (turbo/ERS etc), so would this actually constitute and engine part or just a component? If it's the latter, can't we change our layout? Difficult I expect, and no doubt would affect various other parameters, but the mind boggles if Merc's power advantaage is as big as they say. I don't see how it's technically possible or dare I say even legal?!

[Hornet]

Didn't Renault already try to postpone the engine freeze beyond 28Feb when their teams were having problems in Bahrain? Presumably it got vetoed by FIA and Merc teams, but you're right Nick. I read somewhere that the Merc power advantage had something to do with the layout of the engine ancillaries (turbo/ERS etc), so would this actually constitute and engine part or just a component? If it's the latter, can't we change our layout? Difficult I expect, and no doubt would affect various other parameters, but the mind boggles if Merc's power advantaage is as big as they say. I don't see how it's technically possible or dare I say even legal?!

Scarb mentioned this from photo taken this weekend. The Mercedes use a design approach he calls "split turbo". Here, the turbine is located at the back of the engine, but the compressor is located at the front of the engine. There's a crank shaft that runs from the turbine to the compressor of course, and this crankshaft goes through the turbo MGU. This means they are able to place the MGU inside the V shape. Scarbs didn't detail the advantage of this so I'm not sure what it is. But another advantage is that the intake air will be cooler, as well as shorter exhaust

Here's a picture of it. We can see the compressor located at the front of the engine.
5789

[Samcar222]

Guys, not wanting to start (another) debate, but would you agree our biggest deficiency from 2009-2013 was aerodynamic performance? If that was the case, considering our wind tunnel/aero issues *MAY* be solved for 2014, don't you think we can certainly solve some software/electronics issues?

[Jas]

Guys, not wanting to start (another) debate, but would you agree our biggest deficiency from 2009-2013 was aerodynamic performance? If that was the case, considering our wind tunnel/aero issues *MAY* be solved for 2014, don't you think we can certainly solve some software/electronics issues?

A completely new formula with new challenges...who knows, lets hope so, even still....aero still seems to be lacking co ared to the likes of red bull and mercades

[wisepie]

Scarb mentioned this from photo taken this weekend. The Mercedes use a design approach he calls "split turbo". Here, the turbine is located at the back of the engine, but the compressor is located at the front of the engine. There's a crank shaft that runs from the turbine to the compressor of course, and this crankshaft goes through the turbo MGU. This means they are able to place the MGU inside the V shape. Scarbs didn't detail the advantage of this so I'm not sure what it is. But another advantage is that the intake air will be cooler, as well as shorter exhaust

Here's a picture of it. We can see the compressor located at the front of the engine.
5789

Thanks Hornet, knew I'd seen it somewhere but not being very technical myself, is it likely that this would contribute so much to Merc's power, and why didn't Ferrari think of it? We are the engine masterclass, supposedly!

[Cheeseman]

Ferrari can take solace from the fact that both cars finished the race. Reliability is key, now they can start to tweak the performance and sort out software issues. Imo we didn't have such a bad race, both cars finished, we have a lot of data and we scored solid points. The season is long, it's still early days

[shamim179]

A completely new formula with new challenges...who knows, lets hope so, even still....aero still seems to be lacking co ared to the likes of red bull and mercades

I would say give it more time for the aero. We have a working windtunnel and we had to go through the lengthy process of validation and correlation. We will see some creative and aggressive solutions appearing on our car in due course on the aero side.

However, the biggest disappointment has been our PU. There's no easy remedy to this. Perhaps we were overconfident that we'd come up with the best engine? I'm hoping we can overcome all of our present problems quickly but we have a very steep mountain to climb!

[Grinsomx]

trend of the last few years.....very 1ST race = sack them all and bash each other for not agreeing on who gets sacked first.
what if we win the next 2 races....SD is a genius?

[Cheeseman]

trend of the last few years.....very 1ST race = sack them all and bash each other for not agreeing on who gets sacked first.
what if we win the next 2 races....SD is a genius?

Lol :thumb

[Suzie]

I like it when we are warned to talk nice to our team members and don't insult anyone from the team
on the other hand many of the glass-half-full good-vibe peole are free to insult journalist who see Ferrari behind Merc-RB-Williams-McLaren as idiots, Ferrari haters etc.




Well this isn't a forum for supporters of journalists, so people can say what they like about them (within reason, obviously).

No-one is saying you can't voice criticisms of the team or people within it, but if you're going to, at least do it constructively rather than calling people idiots or getting the burning torches out - I don't see what is complicated about this? Some of the team members getting slagged off were there for the glory years too and honestly seeing some of them torn to shreds all the time is just boring.

[ManFromMilan]

At least Vettel no longer seems to be the top dog.




Well the last couple of years i thought that Alonso was still the top dog in F1' even with Vettel's success, it is just very nice to see that his RB can also develop a problem and not just his Aussie team mate. Maybe he is not Marko's favorite son anymore? Who knows?

[tamburello]

We won't win the next two races.

Domenicali has failed again.

Ever since he took over, it is as though we are ashamed of the management methodology which brought us our greatest success. No more Mr Nasty from Ferrari, here is Media Friendly Team Principal.

And the results?

It would not surprise to hear Domenicali say that its the taking part that matters, not the winning.

Dennis changed things when they went South. Luca sits on his hands and does nothing.

[F2002]

I don't want to ride the 'sack them' wave, but we can't fail to notice (as somebody has already mentioned) that, immediately upon Dennis' return, Mclaren has started to deliver again.

Sometimes good leadership does pay off.

[Suzie]

What exactly do people wish Stefano to say?

[Cheeseman]

We won't win the next two races.

Domenicali has failed again.

Ever since he took over, it is as though we are ashamed of the management methodology which brought us our greatest success. No more Mr Nasty from Ferrari, here is Media Friendly Team Principal.

And the results?

It would not surprise to hear Domenicali say that its the taking part that matters, not the winning.

Dennis changed things when they went South. Luca sits on his hands and does nothing.

Give them a ring and tell them Tel +39 0536.949111

[Schumiklub]

What exactly do people wish Stefano to say?

Honestly, I don't want him to say anything, he's been talking too much in the past. I wish the team would deliver. :-) Fingers crossed for upcoming races.

[ManFromMilan]

Luca sits on his hands and does nothing.




You honestly cannot know that as a fact....;-)

I expected a one two today and where we ultimately ended up is nowhere near that. That is extremely frustrating.

But we do need to wait for all the gremlins to be worked out. Previous years the results and favorites changed massively from the first race to the second and even the third.

Especially this year with the massive regulation change we need to wait a while longer to see where we are going in this championship.

[Kiwi Nick]

Scarb mentioned this from photo taken this weekend. The Mercedes use a design approach he calls "split turbo". Here, the turbine is located at the back of the engine, but the compressor is located at the front of the engine. There's a crank shaft that runs from the turbine to the compressor of course, and this crankshaft goes through the turbo MGU. This means they are able to place the MGU inside the V shape. Scarbs didn't detail the advantage of this so I'm not sure what it is. But another advantage is that the intake air will be cooler, as well as shorter exhaust

Here's a picture of it. We can see the compressor located at the front of the engine.
5789

http://www.f1passion.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Mercedes_V6_Turbo_2014_2.jpg

This is a photo of the turbo/MGU-H/compressor on the Merc power unit. All parts are at the rear of the PU, but the MGU-H effectively isolates the turbo from the compressor making the charge air somewhat cooler. That could make for significantly more HP from the ICE. This unit accounts for 2 of the 6 components that make up the PU and it is homologated, so there is no changing its design and there is no possibility of Ferrari of Renault adopting the design, unless the FIA suspend the PU development rules.

A loop hole might be that Mercedes could sell homologated turbo/MGU-H/compressor units to Ferrari and Renault for use in their PUs, sort of like the McLaren ECU that is used by everybody in F1. But, something tells me that that isn't going to happen even if it were permitted by the FIA.

[Alessandra]

I don't want to ride the 'sack them' wave, but we can't fail to notice (as somebody has already mentioned) that, immediately upon Dennis' return, Mclaren has started to deliver again.


Well, it does [I]look[I] like that but when exactly was Whitmarsh sacked? Presumably some time after the development of the 2014 McLaren?

[Paulpg87]

Domenicali on italian tv said we behind mercedes teams by a lot and didn't expected such a difference and we need to work even more because we are very far

Personally, watching tests and reading rumors, i expected the car to bé bad.. But not that bad. Pretty sad

[Paulpg87]

New interview, always tv. Alonso said the gap is enormous the Real term in italian is abissale of u want to translate

[Ferrari Man]

didn't Alonso put in a lap as quick as rosberg when he got in clean air. he went a second quicker than his previous laps

[tamburello]

You honestly cannot know that as a fact....;-)

I expected a one two today and where we ultimately ended up is nowhere near that. That is extremely frustrating.

But we do need to wait for all the gremlins to be worked out. Previous years the results and favorites changed massively from the first race to the second and even the third.

Especially this year with the massive regulation change we need to wait a while longer to see where we are going in this championship.

Can you show me what Luca has done?

I know he allowed his political ambition to cloud his judgment, and worst of all he used the Scuderia as his own tool in this pipe-dream.

That was why Domenicali was promoted, to fuel a hope of an Italian dream team.

I know this, as we all do.

Now is the time for change. Waiting two or three races is what we have done since 2010.

We are always going to be waiting, but the Italian Dream of Luca is now a nightmare.

Those responsible must go.

Cheerleading failure is not for me.

[tamburello]

Give them a ring and tell them Tel +39 0536.949111

I have, but the line has a problem....it has a very poor performance, much worse than the telephones in Brackley.

But a message does say that they are working hard on the solution to the faulty line.

I would have thought Stefano was too busy to do the Answer Phone voice, but obviously not.

[LongtimeFan]

I stayed up all night for the race, so excited and then ..so disappointed :(

our pace is quite terrible, Alonso was doing his utmost best as usual but you can see we struggle big time, especially in straight line speed.

I'm not willing to admit the season is over yet but its a very disappointing start and I am seriously worried :(

[Greig]

Can you show me what Luca has done?

I know he allowed his political ambition to cloud his judgment, and worst of all he used the Scuderia as his own tool in this pipe-dream.

That was why Domenicali was promoted, to fuel a hope of an Italian dream team.

I know this, as we all do.

Now is the time for change. Waiting two or three races is what we have done since 2010.

We are always going to be waiting, but the Italian Dream of Luca is now a nightmare.

Those responsible must go.

Cheerleading failure is not for me.

You mean you don't know what Luca has done for Ferrari and need to be told?

[Bertie]

Ok I am confused. please help me to put the puzzle together and correct me if i have got things wrong.

Sector info: In practice and qualy we lost time to merc in sector 2. e.g. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/14/2014-australian-grand-prix-friday-practice-analysis/

speed trap data: in qualy and race we were pretty much equal with merc power with them having a slight advantage http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f1-2014/f1-2014-01/2014_01_AUS_F1_Q0_Timing_QualifyingSessionSpeedTra p_V01.pdf.

In the race we were again similar to the merc power http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f1-2014/f1-2014-01/2014_01_AUS_F1_R0_Timing_RaceSpeedTrap_V01.pdf

what we saw: Ferrari was losing out to merc power on the straights in driver battles.

what the media are saying: merc have 900bhp implying a vast reserve of power compared to our own.

Why im confused:

1. How can we be significantly down on power if our top speed is the same?

2. We lost out in sector 2 but the main straights are end of sector 3 and mostly in sector 1. we are good in sector 1 (at least in qualy).

3. We saw the lack of competitiveness on the straights but we still get good speed trap. Lack of traction so losing at the start of straight? competitors best speed trap without DRS? competitors have same top speed with and without DRS?

4. If the merc PU is a 'monster' and the reason for merc domination why did we pull away from hulk at 1s/lap once past? ( http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=914&graf=3&dr1=Fernando%20Alonso&dr2=Nico%20Hulkenberg ). If the merc unit was so powerful hulk should of been able to pull away. Also in qualy trim we had the same top speed as merc power. If they have a hp advantage this should still be apparent when running low fuel.

Any ideas on how the above can all be true?

[tamburello]

You mean you don't know what Luca has done for Ferrari and need to be told?

I know what he did. A long time ago.

You obviously don't know what he has done recently, and need to be told.

Or just learn to read.

[F2002]

Well, it does [I]look[I] like that but when exactly was Whitmarsh sacked? Presumably some time after the development of the 2014 McLaren?

That's not really the point, because you'd expect neither Whitmarsh nor Dennis to have designed or developed the car. It's all a matter of leadership.

[F2002]

What exactly do people wish Stefano to say?

Nothing.

Say nothing and do something.

[Nero Horse]

trend of the last few years.....very 1ST race = sack them all and bash each other for not agreeing on who gets sacked first.
what if we win the next 2 races....SD is a genius?


Ferrari can take solace from the fact that both cars finished the race. Reliability is key, now they can start to tweak the performance and sort out software issues. Imo we didn't have such a bad race, both cars finished, we have a lot of data and we scored solid points. The season is long, it's still early days

THIS^ :thumb

[LongtimeFan]

One of the things that got me was at the first 2-3 laps, Hamilton had a problem and was only running on 5 cylinders but still Alonso didn't have the speed to pass him!!!

[mizf1]

Ted Kravitvz reckons we are 0.4 slower then the Merc if you factor the issue we had, also he says there is a rmour that we are 18KG overweight. I thought we were one of the lightest?

[LongtimeFan]

Ted Kravitvz reckons we are 0.4 slower then the Merc if you factor the issue we had, also he says there is a rmour that we are 18KG overweight. I thought we were one of the lightest?

18kg??? no way.. surely that would make them 2 secs a lap slower?

[shamim179]

Ted Kravitvz reckons we are 0.4 slower then the Merc if you factor the issue we had, also he says there is a rmour that we are 18KG overweight. I thought we were one of the lightest?

Don't believe the rumor. It doesn't make sense. We don't have a turbo shield making it the lightest PU. We even use a special black paint applied on the rear of the bodywork in order to save weight. The gap to Mercedes is multiples of 0.4 seconds!

[killer]

Ok I am confused. please help me to put the puzzle together and correct me if i have got things wrong.

Sector info: In practice and qualy we lost time to merc in sector 2. e.g. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/14/2014-australian-grand-prix-friday-practice-analysis/

speed trap data: in qualy and race we were pretty much equal with merc power with them having a slight advantage http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f1-2014/f1-2014-01/2014_01_AUS_F1_Q0_Timing_QualifyingSessionSpeedTra p_V01.pdf.

In the race we were again similar to the merc power http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f1-2014/f1-2014-01/2014_01_AUS_F1_R0_Timing_RaceSpeedTrap_V01.pdf

what we saw: Ferrari was losing out to merc power on the straights in driver battles.

what the media are saying: merc have 900bhp implying a vast reserve of power compared to our own.

Why im confused:

1. How can we be significantly down on power if our top speed is the same?

2. We lost out in sector 2 but the main straights are end of sector 3 and mostly in sector 1. we are good in sector 1 (at least in qualy).

3. We saw the lack of competitiveness on the straights but we still get good speed trap. Lack of traction so losing at the start of straight? competitors best speed trap without DRS? competitors have same top speed with and without DRS?

4. If the merc PU is a 'monster' and the reason for merc domination why did we pull away from hulk at 1s/lap once past? ( http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=914&graf=3&dr1=Fernando%20Alonso&dr2=Nico%20Hulkenberg ). If the merc unit was so powerful hulk should of been able to pull away. Also in qualy trim we had the same top speed as merc power. If they have a hp advantage this should still be apparent when running low fuel.

Any ideas on how the above can all be true?

Did you mean, lap 46 onwards for question 4? I'd say tyres, mate. Perhaps all the statements/observations regarding a lack of power were a knee-jerk reaction (myself included) to the F14-T's lack of performance yesterday. We could very well have issues with traction and aero and these may have contributed more to the gap than any power unit deficiency.

[Bertie]

Did you mean, lap 46 onwards for question 4? I'd say tyres, mate. Perhaps all the statements/observations regarding a lack of power were a knee-jerk reaction (myself included) to the F14-T's lack of performance yesterday. We could very well have issues with traction and aero and these may have contributed more to the gap than any power unit deficiency.

He still averages 0.582 seconds per lap faster from lap 37-46 and Hulk set his purple lap (1:33.210) on the same lap (56) as Alonso (1:32.616). Also hulk pitted later (2 laps)

By comparing to rosberg i saw that his fastest lap (1:32.478) was on lap 19 and was horrified by the pace this implies, but it was set on a fresh set of the softs vs 20 lap old med for Alo and Hulk.

[Marino]

I stayed up all night for the race, so excited and then ..so disappointed :(

our pace is quite terrible, Alonso was doing his utmost best as usual but you can see we struggle big time, especially in straight line speed.

I'm not willing to admit the season is over yet but its a very disappointing start and I am seriously worried :(

I wasn't going to post by 100X this for me.

[Muhammad Ansib]

Well Done Boys considering our Electrical systems weren't working properly. Alonso sounded confident and Also Pat Fry seemed Bullish in the post-race comments. I can only add a small detail that Australia can always bring up surprises remember 2013 a certain Pettel was 22.3 SECONDS(P3) behind Kimi Raikkonen (P1) and yet he was driving the monsterous Pole position winning RB9! and yet in Malaysia they were literally untouchable and literally dominated the whole season,so HAVE FAITH.I am pretty sure Australia is not representative of our car's actual performance and hopefully we will Challenge for top Positions in the next race.

FORZA.

[Nova]

I have to say Ive not been a fan of turbo's in F1. Im surprised Ferrari was willing to go along w/this.
What I heard in testing were sounds of Lemans cars, or thats what they reminded me of. The thrill is gone, or should I say the shrill is gone.
The sound is not what Im dragged about, well, a bit. But if anyone here remembers the 80's. From 85 thru 88, F1 ran turbos w/fuel restrictions.
Check our record during that period. A few scattered wins, but dismal performance as Ferrari could not come to terms with the fuel rules, so they were down on power
or risked running out of fuel. Shades of the past!!!! Am I reliving the 80's??? I couldnt wait for 89 and the return of the mighty V12.
Now I feel Ferrari will come together although Im surprised of the electrical problems if any, and the lack of pace.
All the hirings, changes of personal, restructering..Im sure we will see benefits from this..I hope sooner than later.
On a side note, how could Rosberg run so fast and not run out of fuel?
By the way, Honda ruled the turbo, fuel restricted 80's...

[Sha1]

Ted Kravitvz reckons we are 0.4 slower then the Merc if you factor the issue we had, also he says there is a rmour that we are 18KG overweight. I thought we were one of the lightest?

You mean the same Ted Kravitz who said F1 cars don't have spark plugs on live TV? LOL that guy is a complete idiot, and probably gets all his technical knowledge from a teleprompter. His constant digs at Ferrari and Alonso are quite irritating too.

[Sha1]

I have to say Ive not been a fan of turbo's in F1. Im surprised Ferrari was willing to go along w/this.
What I heard in testing were sounds of Lemans cars, or thats what they reminded me of. The thrill is gone, or should I say the shrill is gone.
The sound is not what Im dragged about, well, a bit. But if anyone here remembers the 80's. From 85 thru 88, F1 ran turbos w/fuel restrictions.
Check our record during that period. A few scattered wins, but dismal performance as Ferrari could not come to terms with the fuel rules, so they were down on power
or risked running out of fuel. Shades of the past!!!! Am I reliving the 80's??? I couldnt wait for 89 and the return of the mighty V12.
Now I feel Ferrari will come together although Im surprised of the electrical problems if any, and the lack of pace.
All the hirings, changes of personal, restructering..Im sure we will see benefits from this..I hope sooner than later.
On a side note, how could Rosberg run so fast and not run out of fuel?
By the way, Honda ruled the turbo, fuel restricted 80's...

Spot on mate. I'm afraid Ferrari might just be losing Alonso to McLaren next year after all... But seeing how their new rookie is performing, he might not even be needed. :-)

[long2ma]

What a terrible weekend for Ferrari.

1. Nowhere near the pace of Mercedes powered teams as well as Renault teams except Lotus & Caterham.
2. Lagging behind those teams in all aspects.

Furthermore, F1 new era engines sound terrible.

[long2ma]

Well Done Boys considering our Electrical systems weren't working properly. Alonso sounded confident and Also Pat Fry seemed Bullish in the post-race comments. I can only add a small detail that Australia can always bring up surprises remember 2013 a certain Pettel was 22.3 SECONDS(P3) behind Kimi Raikkonen (P1) and yet he was driving the monsterous Pole position winning RB9! and yet in Malaysia they were literally untouchable and literally dominated the whole season,so HAVE FAITH.I am pretty sure Australia is not representative of our car's actual performance and hopefully we will Challenge for top Positions in the next race.

I think all tifosi are very used to this kind of statements for 6 years now. Look what Ferrari can do at the end... I just think Ferrari should quit F! completely sice they can't even produce a decent cars since 2008.
FORZA.

[killer]

He still averages 0.582 seconds per lap faster from lap 37-46 and Hulk set his purple lap (1:33.210) on the same lap (56) as Alonso (1:32.616). Also hulk pitted later (2 laps)

By comparing to rosberg i saw that his fastest lap (1:32.478) was on lap 19 and was horrified by the pace this implies, but it was set on a fresh set of the softs vs 20 lap old med for Alo and Hulk.

So there's basically a tenth favoring Nico on fresh tyres but heavy fuel and Fernando on old tyres and low fuel. IF these factors cancel each other out then we'd be led to believe it's a power deficiency (which I am confident we can make up)...but then Kimi's FL is a second off of Nico's and Fernando's. Maybe Kimi had ERS issues throughout the race?

[karvyin12]

Ok I am confused. please help me to put the puzzle together and correct me if i have got things wrong.

Sector info: In practice and qualy we lost time to merc in sector 2. e.g. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/14/2014-australian-grand-prix-friday-practice-analysis/

speed trap data: in qualy and race we were pretty much equal with merc power with them having a slight advantage http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f1-2014/f1-2014-01/2014_01_AUS_F1_Q0_Timing_QualifyingSessionSpeedTra p_V01.pdf.

In the race we were again similar to the merc power http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f1-2014/f1-2014-01/2014_01_AUS_F1_R0_Timing_RaceSpeedTrap_V01.pdf

what we saw: Ferrari was losing out to merc power on the straights in driver battles.

what the media are saying: merc have 900bhp implying a vast reserve of power compared to our own.

Why im confused:

1. How can we be significantly down on power if our top speed is the same?

2. We lost out in sector 2 but the main straights are end of sector 3 and mostly in sector 1. we are good in sector 1 (at least in qualy).

3. We saw the lack of competitiveness on the straights but we still get good speed trap. Lack of traction so losing at the start of straight? competitors best speed trap without DRS? competitors have same top speed with and without DRS?

4. If the merc PU is a 'monster' and the reason for merc domination why did we pull away from hulk at 1s/lap once past? ( http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=914&graf=3&dr1=Fernando%20Alonso&dr2=Nico%20Hulkenberg ). If the merc unit was so powerful hulk should of been able to pull away. Also in qualy trim we had the same top speed as merc power. If they have a hp advantage this should still be apparent when running low fuel.

Any ideas on how the above can all be true?


A good one. From what I understand is that our power unit is not that bad as most of us think, however we need to refine or fine tune to get better drive. which I am sure it will be fixed...

[nash929]

It's wasn't a good GP, but it's not terrible. Sure, they weren't able to fight the top cars, but at least, they were able to finish.

The thing i'm concerned with was the Electrical issues they were saying during the race. My gut feel is that it's isn't true 100%. It was pretty obvious during the testing that they are down on power vs the Mercs. The race answered the questions raised during testing. The Ferrari engine is indeed on the back foot vs the Mercs.

As someone said, I believe the Aero is not the issue. But then again, this years regs puts a premium on the engine. Which does not bode well for Ferrari if they don't find a solution soon.

Malaysia couldn't come soon enough.

[Stormsearcher]

Ok I am confused. please help me to put the puzzle together and correct me if i have got things wrong.

Sector info: In practice and qualy we lost time to merc in sector 2. e.g. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/14/2014-australian-grand-prix-friday-practice-analysis/

speed trap data: in qualy and race we were pretty much equal with merc power with them having a slight advantage http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f1-2014/f1-2014-01/2014_01_AUS_F1_Q0_Timing_QualifyingSessionSpeedTra p_V01.pdf.

In the race we were again similar to the merc power http://184.106.145.74/f1-championship/f1-2014/f1-2014-01/2014_01_AUS_F1_R0_Timing_RaceSpeedTrap_V01.pdf

what we saw: Ferrari was losing out to merc power on the straights in driver battles.

what the media are saying: merc have 900bhp implying a vast reserve of power compared to our own.

Why im confused:

1. How can we be significantly down on power if our top speed is the same?

2. We lost out in sector 2 but the main straights are end of sector 3 and mostly in sector 1. we are good in sector 1 (at least in qualy).

3. We saw the lack of competitiveness on the straights but we still get good speed trap. Lack of traction so losing at the start of straight? competitors best speed trap without DRS? competitors have same top speed with and without DRS?

4. If the merc PU is a 'monster' and the reason for merc domination why did we pull away from hulk at 1s/lap once past? ( http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=914&graf=3&dr1=Fernando%20Alonso&dr2=Nico%20Hulkenberg ). If the merc unit was so powerful hulk should of been able to pull away. Also in qualy trim we had the same top speed as merc power. If they have a hp advantage this should still be apparent when running low fuel.

Any ideas on how the above can all be true?

I believe its the torque the engines are putting out that would make the difference. The bhp is pretty meaningless to guage power really. If the merc is putting out way more torque, and delivering that torque smoothly in a linear fashion, it will make a huge difference to the cars lap time.

[mark p]

I believe its the torque the engines are putting out that would make the difference. The bhp is pretty meaningless to guage power really. If the merc is putting out way more torque, and delivering that torque smoothly in a linear fashion, it will make a huge difference to the cars lap time.


Torque is not sepwrate to power it is a part of the HP equation. Torque x engine speed = HP. I hate it when they seperate the 2. More torque at a given rpm means more HP at those revs. Its all about power at different places in the range for lap time. I have an ocd about this sorry.

[anakin]

what about I read somewhere that the updated software will increase power 30% - 40%????

[stefa]

what about I read somewhere that the updated software will increase power 30% - 40%????

NO WAY that can be true!

[slak]

Please explain how we finished behind a car that could not even string together a full lap during testing.
We did not threaten anyone during the race. We were being passed by anyone who got closed to us. Heads needs to roll.:furious

[Greig]

Please explain how we finished behind a car that could not even string together a full lap during testing.

they cheated and got DQ is probably why.

[slak]

they cheated and got DQ is probably why.

Could their cheat with fuel flow have an effect on their performance?

[Ed Harley]

KR giving instructions to his race engineer Antonio Spagnolo in Australia. I wonder what was needed to change?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiyULDDNIps

And btw that is not angry.

[Sab_g]

You mean the same Ted Kravitz who said F1 cars don't have spark plugs on live TV? LOL that guy is a complete idiot, and probably gets all his technical knowledge from a teleprompter. His constant digs at Ferrari and Alonso are quite irritating too.

I noticed that too, what an absolute moron!! Really Ted, f1 has Diesel engines now? Maybe they should get someone in the pits that has a clue!

[Alesi1]

KR giving instructions to his race engineer Antonio Spagnolo in Australia. I wonder what was needed to change?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiyULDDNIps

And btw that is not angry.
That's about as 'angry' as he gets :-)

[Ed Harley]

That's about as 'angry' as he gets :-)
That was about the same as what I use at work. Rather normal Finnish way of conveying the message without much possibilities to misunderstand. Notice military approach of exact pointing to correct direction and absence of unnecessary hand waving. :-)

[Ste]

Could their cheat with fuel flow have an effect on their performance?
Yes, of course. More fuel flow = more performance. It also means they'd run out of fuel much faster though, so they couldn't maintain that flow for the entire race.

But, if you had excess fuel at the end and you knew you could increase the fuel flow for more performance, you would be quicker. But illegal.

[Suzie]

KR giving instructions to his race engineer Antonio Spagnolo in Australia. I wonder what was needed to change?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiyULDDNIps

And btw that is not angry.

Another Kimi video. Wouldn't describe this one as 'angry' either tbh but the atmosphere doesn't seem the best -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA_cZsOG9yM

[Ed Harley]

In the first bit I think it is the seat which aparently was the problem in the first "angry" vid as well. Lots of people around and only one is doing something.

The switch comment is very neutral. IMHO every driver needs precise info from his race engineer and they are getting used to each other at this point. Would have been nice if Mark Slade had joined SF.

[f300v10]

Here is my attempt to find some good news in yesterdays race. Alonso lost significant time being held up by Hulk, so the race pace after the safety car is impossible to calculate. However, looking at the final 19 laps of the race we have the top 5 cars basically running without traffic on the same tires and fuel load, and with the exception of Magnussen, clean air. Yes the age of the tires varies by a few laps, but tire degridation was rather low. If we exclude Rosberg (who was 10 seconds faster than the other 4), Alonso's pace was very similar to the other 3 top cars. I could not include Bottas in the anlysis as he was behind Hulk for the first 1/2 of the stint. Here is the cumulative time for laps 42 through 60 (19 lap stint):

Alonso: 29:40.8
Button: 29:38.59
Ricardo: 29:40.15
Magnussen: 29:40.12

Alonso delta to Button: +.116 per lap
Alonso delta to Ricardo: +.034 per lap
Alonso delta to Mag: +.036 per lap

These deltas are small. So while the gap to Mercedes is VERY large, Ferrari is close to the other top teams. Also I don't think Melbourne plays to the strenghts of the F14T, and the situation in Sepang could be better. I expect Ferrari to be quicker than McLaren there with more fast corners and less importance on low speed traction.

[mark p]

NO WAY that can be true!

Mapping can have a huge effect. Great example in the race and quali but in a reverse perspective was Vettels pace v his teamate due to mapping issues. The gap was huge.

[shamim179]

Here is my attempt to find some good news in yesterdays race. Alonso lost significant time being held up by Hulk, so the race pace after the safety car is impossible to calculate. However, looking at the final 19 laps of the race we have the top 5 cars basically running without traffic on the same tires and fuel load, and with the exception of Magnussen, clean air. Yes the age of the tires varies by a few laps, but tire degridation was rather low. If we exclude Rosberg (who was 10 seconds faster than the other 4), Alonso's pace was very similar to the other 3 top cars. I could not include Bottas in the anlysis as he was behind Hulk for the first 1/2 of the stint. Here is the cumulative time for laps 42 through 60 (19 lap stint):

Alonso: 29:40.8
Button: 29:38.59
Ricardo: 29:40.15
Magnussen: 29:40.12

Alonso delta to Button: +.116 per lap
Alonso delta to Ricardo: +.034 per lap
Alonso delta to Mag: +.036 per lap

These deltas are small. So while the gap to Mercedes is VERY large, Ferrari is close to the other top teams. Also I don't think Melbourne plays to the strenghts of the F14T, and the situation in Sepang could be better. I expect Ferrari to be quicker than McLaren there with more fast corners and less importance on low speed traction.

This does paint a somewhat positive picture but it might be that the front runners were cruising during the final stint? I've heard that everyone or almost everyone ahead of Alonso and just behind were saving fuel but only Alonso, Kimi and Bottas were pushing like mad. Rosberg for sure had plenty of speed left.

It does hint that Ferrari's PU is fuel efficient. Lacks power compared to the Mercedes and Renault but this might just be a case of getting to grips with the electrical power output side of things. Once we have sorted those issues the order should be more definitive.

[Kyss4k]

This does paint a somewhat positive picture but it might be that the front runners were cruising during the final stint? I've heard that everyone or almost everyone ahead of Alonso and just behind were saving fuel but only Alonso, Kimi and Bottas were pushing like mad. Rosberg for sure had plenty of speed left.

It does hint that Ferrari's PU is fuel efficient. Lacks power compared to the Mercedes and Renault but this might just be a case of getting to grips with the electrical power output side of things. Once we have sorted those issues the order should be more definitive.

Wasn't there radio message to Ric that he does not need to save fuel?

[ferrari4life]

WOW... how did the Ferrari PU get slower than the Renault?
Man how much has Ferrari's brain trust lost. Someone told me they watched a show that showed the Ferrari engine struggling with mis-fires in Dec, 3 months before the first race. Are we really that bad?

[REDARMYSOJA]

Rather normal Finnish way of conveying the message without much possibilities to misunderstand.

Seems to me to be the way the rest of the world generally handles it as well.

[REDARMYSOJA]

WOW... how did the Ferrari PU get slower than the Renault?


Fuel flow rate, I'd guess.

[ferrari4life]

Fuel flow rate, I'd guess.

you mean a problem with the regulator or just a engine that sucks fuel like crazy.

[Nero Horse]

KR giving instructions to his race engineer Antonio Spagnolo in Australia. I wonder what was needed to change?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiyULDDNIps

And btw that is not angry.

I like that he's showing his emotions, that means that he cares.

[M.K]

I rather see him a little bit irritated about process rather than poppin Magnums. :-)

[Ed Harley]

I like that he's showing his emotions, that means that he cares.
We Finns may care even if there is no commotion or lots of theatrical hand gestures. This still seems very difficult for people to understand as I see it at work.

[Nero Horse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bO_3wDRX4s

[REDARMYSOJA]

you mean a problem with the regulator or just a engine that sucks fuel like crazy.

I mean that the only Renault power unit that finished in front of the Ferrari was running an illegal fuel flow rate. I've heard nothing of the Ferrari engine "sucking fuel like crazy".

[Senna4Ever]

Despite the bitter taste of how we have been prepared for Australia

a big :thumb to Kevin Magnussen. First race, all the pressure ... and mission accomplished. Will be nice to watch over the whole season. Might be the end of Jenson if he doesn't see much light against the Youngster ...

[radosav]

Despite the bitter taste of how we have been prepared for Australia

a big :thumb to Kevin Magnussen. First race, all the pressure ... and mission accomplished. Will be nice to watch over the whole season. Might be the end of Jenson if he doesn't see much light against the Youngster ...He did well , but at the start he almost blew Alonso away!

[Fer138]

He did well , but at the start he almost blew Alonso away!

Exactly! I was like, oh no, not another Grosjean! But luckily Fernando managed to avoid him. Anyway, thought he had a pretty uneventful race and was not pressured, still, a great first race for a rookie except for his awful start which could have ended his race. His teammate was pretty lucky with the safety car too. Think that's how he got in front of Fernando plus with a great timing for his second pit stop. Hope things turn out better for us next race, car, strategy and luck wise!

[radosav]

Exactly! I was like, oh no, not another Grosjean! But luckily Fernando managed to avoid him. Anyway, thought he had a pretty uneventful race and was not pressured, still, a great first race for a rookie except for his awful start which could have ended his race. His teammate was pretty lucky with the safety car too. Think that's how he got in front of Fernando plus with a great timing for his second pit stop. Hope things turn out better for us next race, car, strategy and luck wise!I hope too!

[shamim179]

I hope too!

For every race there has to be at least one Grosjean! Drivers like him make it exciting!

[Kiwi Nick]

Excuse for having to ask, but the race coverage I watched was not too good. Why did Ferrari have to double pit, costing Kimi a place or two?

"When it was time for the first stop, we had to do a double stop and that cost me a place." - Kimi

[Greig]

Excuse for having to ask, but the race coverage I watched was not too good. Why did Ferrari have to double pit, costing Kimi a place or two?

"When it was time for the first stop, we had to do a double stop and that cost me a place." - Kimi

SC came out, Kimi would have lost a lot more had we not stopped both cars.

[SilverSpeed]

Seems that the Merc cars have alot more pace in hand after all:

http://www.toilef1.com/GP-d-Australie-Les-meilleurs-tours.html

Fastest lap by Rosberg ofcourse but on lap 19... while last year Kimi made his on lap 56.

[Kiwi Nick]

Seems that the Merc cars have alot more pace in hand after all:

http://www.toilef1.com/GP-d-Australie-Les-meilleurs-tours.html

Fastest lap by Rosberg ofcourse but on lap 19... while last year Kimi made his on lap 56.

So, Rosberg was taking it easy for the last 3/4 of the race. That's good to know.

[Dino]

Excuse for having to ask, but the race coverage I watched was not too good. Why did Ferrari have to double pit, costing Kimi a place or two?

"When it was time for the first stop, we had to do a double stop and that cost me a place." - Kimi


http://vimeo.com/89298033#at=15

[killer]

Interesting that Stefano mentions a possible ECU issue at the start ("maybe because of a link in the software to the FIA or maybe not") that "we did not have the power to do what we could have done" and that put "Fernando and Kimi into traffic".

[anakin]

KR giving instructions to his race engineer Antonio Spagnolo in Australia. I wonder what was needed to change?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiyULDDNIps

And btw that is not angry.

after seeing this. I remember a part from the movie "RUSH"
Niki Lauda was Disappointed
"
and the engineer is proudly saying "its a ferrari"

[Senna4Ever]

He did well , but at the start he almost blew Alonso away!

Rewatched the start again and again and I would say it was way away from Crashjean or Kamikaze-Kob ... In 2012 Crashjean would have lost the car. However: even I re-watched the start couple of times it doesn't look that critical too me. But who I am to give my opinion here in a SF Forum without ever driven a F1 car or worked in F1 itself ...

#SupportOurTroups ...

[Nick Singer]

Interesting that Stefano mentions a possible ECU issue at the start ("maybe because of a link in the software to the FIA or maybe not") that "we did not have the power to do what we could have done" and that put "Fernando and Kimi into traffic".

ALO spent forever behind HUL...

[F1NAC]

Here is my attempt to find some good news in yesterdays race. Alonso lost significant time being held up by Hulk, so the race pace after the safety car is impossible to calculate. However, looking at the final 19 laps of the race we have the top 5 cars basically running without traffic on the same tires and fuel load, and with the exception of Magnussen, clean air. Yes the age of the tires varies by a few laps, but tire degridation was rather low. If we exclude Rosberg (who was 10 seconds faster than the other 4), Alonso's pace was very similar to the other 3 top cars. I could not include Bottas in the anlysis as he was behind Hulk for the first 1/2 of the stint. Here is the cumulative time for laps 42 through 60 (19 lap stint):

Alonso: 29:40.8
Button: 29:38.59
Ricardo: 29:40.15
Magnussen: 29:40.12

Alonso delta to Button: +.116 per lap
Alonso delta to Ricardo: +.034 per lap
Alonso delta to Mag: +.036 per lap

These deltas are small. So while the gap to Mercedes is VERY large, Ferrari is close to the other top teams. Also I don't think Melbourne plays to the strenghts of the F14T, and the situation in Sepang could be better. I expect Ferrari to be quicker than McLaren there with more fast corners and less importance on low speed traction.

Sepang can be as good as Melbourne or worse. Because Ferrari said that they gona bring a ECU update to improve ERS like 30 % so we are gonna be sitting ducks on the straights in Sepang if we nurse there same electric problems

[Muhammad Ansib]

what are the predictions for sepang? I mean specifically the weather forcast?

[Nero Horse]

what are the predictions for sepang? I mean specifically the weather forcast?

You're asking two weeks before the GP about what the weather is going to be like... in Malaysia of all places (where the weather can drastically change in one minute)? I'm sure that even a psychic wouldn't know the answer to that question. ;-)

[shamim179]

A few teams were changing their engine maps during the race. One of the situations where they did this was to improve their overtaking ability. I wonder if Ferrari has devised a map to do this? Both cars were struggling to overtake and only overtook cars ahead when they had problems or made mistakes. Devising such a map would mean concentrating the usage of electrical power on a section of a track that is most suitable for overtaking like a straight. I would imagine that when electrical power has to used in an intense fashion rather than a steady use here and then over an entire lap, the electrical units of the engine will get immensely hot. So perhaps this will come at a cost to reliability?

Similarly, another map could be devised to defend as it is very likely the car behind will try and overtake where it's most suitable like the straight. I wonder if often switching between different engine maps is going to affect reliability? Lots of unknowns for the team and quite possibly we took a more cautious approach because of that.

[killer]

ALO spent forever behind HUL...

Yes, he did. I read his statement as the car having potential.

[mrnl]

A few teams were changing their engine maps during the race. One of the situations where they did this was to improve their overtaking ability. I wonder if Ferrari has devised a map to do this? Both cars were struggling to overtake and only overtook cars ahead when they had problems or made mistakes. Devising such a map would mean concentrating the usage of electrical power on a section of a track that is most suitable for overtaking like a straight. I would imagine that when electrical power has to used in an intense fashion rather than a steady use here and then over an entire lap, the electrical units of the engine will get immensely hot. So perhaps this will come at a cost to reliability?

Similarly, another map could be devised to defend as it is very likely the car behind will try and overtake where it's most suitable like the straight. I wonder if often switching between different engine maps is going to affect reliability? Lots of unknowns for the team and quite possibly we took a more cautious approach because of that.

There is a difference between maps and modes. In a few words, as this is a very extensive topic, maps are preset and have between 5 and 9 parameters that can be combined into different modes, which are in turn operated by the driver via steering wheel controls. All controlled by the ECU. We're still far from the EBD-time extreme maps and modes for those engines. Most people stick to just varying fuel mix during the race e.g. G2-G8 for Macca stands for anything between full power and full lift and coast. Every team has those set up in one way or another. If that helps with your question?