Ferrari F2012 Development News Thread

[Rob]

I think so... but now when the windtunnel is closed in december how are they going to develop the 2013 car...How reliable the Toyota windtunnel is...

It is 1 of the best around.

[anupa2k]

Ferrari have used the Toyota wind tunnel before and even though it may be better than the one they already have , I don't think it's on the same level as the one possessed by Red Bull and McLaren.
And with all these wind tunnel issues coming to the fore, you just know it that the 2013 challenger will probably get off to a slow start too.

Totally Agreed...

[F2002]

He said it at the start of this week i think it was. Just press jumping all over it again and asking him same questions because we dont look fast here. So what, points are awarded Sunday. When we do win WDC be great to shut press up of doom and gloom mongering.


Stefanos comments not doom and gloom, just telling bare truth.

Re Suzuka, it's too early to say, I think we can do pretty well, especially as the circuit suits the characteristics of the car.

This is a delicate time championship-wise, because the main rivals are slowly catching up. A win or two would be a great way to silence the critics indeed.

[FerrariF60]

Re Suzuka, it's too early to say, I think we can do pretty well, especially as the circuit suits the characteristics of the car.

This is a delicate time championship-wise, because the main rivals are slowly catching up. A win or two would be a great way to silence the critics indeed.

it's always easier said than done, mate...i would LOVE for Fernando do have another WIN, possibly TWO, weather it would be based on pure speed of the F2012 OR just benefiting for others' luck of misfortune...

but i would MUCH rather prefer if we BEAT then on pure speed....unfortunately it don't look like we can do that this year.....UNLESS IT'S A RAINY WEEKEND....

[Gerhard Berger]

it's always easier said than done, mate...i would LOVE for Fernando do have another WIN, possibly TWO, weather it would be based on pure speed of the F2012 OR just benefiting for others' luck of misfortune...

but i would MUCH rather prefer if we BEAT then on pure speed....unfortunately it don't look like we can do that this year.....UNLESS IT'S A RAINY WEEKEND....

and weather forecast seems to indicate good weather for Suzuka this weekend and Yeongham next weekend. Doubt there is much chance of rain in India, Texas or Abu Dhabi, so that just leaves Brazil where we have to pray for rain!

[anupa2k]

it's always easier said than done, mate...i would LOVE for Fernando do have another WIN, possibly TWO, weather it would be based on pure speed of the F2012 OR just benefiting for others' luck of misfortune...

but i would MUCH rather prefer if we BEAT then on pure speed....unfortunately it don't look like we can do that this year.....UNLESS IT'S A RAINY WEEKEND....

Spot on target...very rightly said...even i would like Ferrari to beat its opponents on pure pace rather than relying on others to make mistakes or expect rain....

[KennyBama]

Guys i think we could say bye bye to the WDC this year... If we are lucky and the others keep on having reliability problems or if rains other than that we wont have a car competing for pole this year. I dont think the wind tunnel is totally to blame here.. ferrari is covering their inability in developing the F2012 aerodynamicc with wind tunnel issue!!! Lotus states 75% of all their updates work, so there is a margin of 25 % chance i.e 1 out of every 4 updates that might fall in the category of not working!!! mclaren and redbull also had isues at the beginning, remember when we were flying high and winning races, mcca had lots of updates that didnt deliver straight on!!! I believe ferrari engineers need a top aerodynamicist who can guide the others to make the right choice of development route!!! Adrian newey took 5 years to get red bull to win!!! at the begiining he produced some donkey cars... lots of his updates didnt work, does that mean redbull had correlation issues, never heard!!! No Ferrari designed a bad car from the onset!!! there concept was flawed from the beginning... they had a development route in mind and had to change everything to make it work!!! now they don't know which route to take, made no mistake about it they are trying really hard, but they dont have a good chief to point them in the right direction. The good thing is that now the engineers have lots of data on what works and not work and also updates that they produced this year and didnt work on this car could work on next years car.... You learn more when things goes wrong!!!
Look at the coke bottle area, everybody knows that if you clear it up u can have better flow to the diffuser and increase ist efficiency... ferrari from the onset went for reliability of cooling system rather than aero!!! wrong direction... i nknow they cant change now... because, it will need a lot of work to get a new system working with good reliability!!!. 2nd there front wing!!! ferrari still trying to understand how the front airflow affect the rear - showed by their simple FW...
So lets hope lady luck is with us!!! but i think next year we will have a better car purely based on the experience that the team has had this year and understanding of aero philosophy...

Well put. The truth is the truth.

[FerrariF60]

and weather forecast seems to indicate good weather for Suzuka this weekend and Yeongham next weekend. Doubt there is much chance of rain in India, Texas or Abu Dhabi, so that just leaves Brazil where we have to pray for rain!

Wow, I cannot believe that US fans now more than ever pray for rainy weekends, in order for Ferrari to do well in that particular race weekend. At least we fixed that culprit issue we had all along probably since 2008 when our car was unable to generate heat into the tires on rainy weekends.

Whatever happened to us having a good weekend no matter what the weather looked like, always being competitive??? Maybe we’ll see that next year with the F2013

[anupa2k]

Guys i think we could say bye bye to the WDC this year... If we are lucky and the others keep on having reliability problems or if rains other than that we wont have a car competing for pole this year. I dont think the wind tunnel is totally to blame here.. ferrari is covering their inability in developing the F2012 aerodynamicc with wind tunnel issue!!! Lotus states 75% of all their updates work, so there is a margin of 25 % chance i.e 1 out of every 4 updates that might fall in the category of not working!!! mclaren and redbull also had isues at the beginning, remember when we were flying high and winning races, mcca had lots of updates that didnt deliver straight on!!! I believe ferrari engineers need a top aerodynamicist who can guide the others to make the right choice of development route!!! Adrian newey took 5 years to get red bull to win!!! at the begiining he produced some donkey cars... lots of his updates didnt work, does that mean redbull had correlation issues, never heard!!! No Ferrari designed a bad car from the onset!!! there concept was flawed from the beginning... they had a development route in mind and had to change everything to make it work!!! now they don't know which route to take, made no mistake about it they are trying really hard, but they dont have a good chief to point them in the right direction. The good thing is that now the engineers have lots of data on what works and not work and also updates that they produced this year and didnt work on this car could work on next years car.... You learn more when things goes wrong!!!
Look at the coke bottle area, everybody knows that if you clear it up u can have better flow to the diffuser and increase ist efficiency... ferrari from the onset went for reliability of cooling system rather than aero!!! wrong direction... i nknow they cant change now... because, it will need a lot of work to get a new system working with good reliability!!!. 2nd there front wing!!! ferrari still trying to understand how the front airflow affect the rear - showed by their simple FW...
So lets hope lady luck is with us!!! but i think next year we will have a better car purely based on the experience that the team has had this year and understanding of aero philosophy...

Almost agree with you...but i still believe in Fernando...i know its hard for him also...but we are here leading the championship only and only because of him...

Now one thing i don`t really understand is why the Windtunnel stop matching the data with track now...last year we did fixed the windtunnel...
I always used to hear comments from Stefano and Pat fry that we are happy that the ontrack and windtunnel data...it matches our expectations...

And now he says that instead thinks that ""I think our structure is not the best one in that respect," "It's quite old. We are trying to improve the quality of the tools we have, this is something we are trying to do, so we try and improve correlation and this is the plan that we should be able to do for next season."

Ferrari always ask for more season testing...but what parts do we tested at Magny-Cours...i think nothing...
This were the comments from Stefano ::
"One of the priorities of the (Magny-Cours) test will be to fine-tune the correlation between the simulator and the track"...but he didn`t speak anything about updates or parts...


Can anyone please explain whats going on really ? i am not getting any bit of it...

And with all these issues how are we going to focus on 2013...

[matthewrees]

I dont know if its just me and hopefully those of you who also follow motogp and the great Valentino Rossi will see where I am going with this one but is there something inherently flawed about the speed of development for red machines ?
I remember an article that was published in Autosport and I unfortunately I forget the year, however the jist of it was that if Fernando Alonso doesnt ever manage to take a title with Ferrari then there can only be side you can blame and wont be Fernando.
I just dont see how we manage to fail so badly in updating a car in the same way that both Mclaren and RedBull seem to on such a consistent basis ?
I'll give you a comparison to the uninformed amongst you :
Valentino Rossi has struggled for the last two years on a bike that even a 9 times champion cannot turn around and has pushed and pushed for updates or new components and then finally when the season has been virtually decided and he has already resigned with Yamaha, he finally gets some updates. Honda on the other hand are able to turn up at a midseason test with not only two new chassis to try but also the 2013 bike ! Yes yes I know all about the might of Honda and the fact their resources.
Both Red Bull and Mclaren seem to be able to turn up to every race with something new in someway shape or form ! Whether it be new sidepods or a new front wing or a new exhaust configuration...whatever it is its always something ! What are bringing to the table.....nothing to really set the track alight !
So can we see where I am going yet ?
Ok I know some of you will read this now and think come on its only Friday and practise means nothing ! Look I have watched F1 long enough to also share the same opinion of Fridays times.
However the fact remains that as the season draws to a close that Ferrari are relying far too much on the skill of Alonso and the reliability of other teams.
29 points is absolutely nothing to get complacent about people and dont be suprised if Vettel does take his third crown this year !
Gary Anderson from the BBC had this absolutely spot on after Singapore when he said that Alonso after all of the work he has done to deliver a strong result needs a thankyou in the form of some big big upgrades.
Dont get me wrong people because if there is one thing I hate to do its criticize the team and their efforts but you have to start and wonder just when it will change.......

[FrankAlfa]

I don't think anyone is not aware that the Ferrari F2012 must find more speed if it is to win the Driver's title. 29 points is a very small margin given the number of races remaining. They have to forgo top end speed and work on downforce! Lets see some Gurney Flaps on every wing and put more downforce load on the race car.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Jose-Lorca Fan]

I don't think anyone is not aware that the Ferrari F2012 must find more speed if it is to win the Driver's title. 29 points is a very small margin given the number of races remaining. They have to forgo top end speed and work on downforce! Lets see some Gurney Flaps on every wing and put more downforce load on the race car.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

Yes and while we're at it why don't we have you sitting on the rear monkey seat for added downforce?

[Ken]

I don't think anyone is not aware that the Ferrari F2012 must find more speed if it is to win the Driver's title. 29 points is a very small margin given the number of races remaining. They have to forgo top end speed and work on downforce! Lets see some Gurney Flaps on every wing and put more downforce load on the race car.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

I doubt that more down force is the answere, more down force = more drag = less forward speed and slower lap times. Down force is only helpfull at corners to keep the speed up, so when that is maximized further down force is a hinderence.

So untill as and when we get our wind tunnel problems sorted out we can not reliably deliver proper upgrades. This problem has been with us for quite sometime and I pray we are getting very close to the solution with the toyota wind tunnel.

[FrankAlfa]

Downforce is the whole problem. Drag is the buggaboo but the F2012 lacks enough grip to get drive through and out of corners. This is where they are losing time! You must give up some top speed to have more grip! This is the ongoing problem to solve for every team. Of course many other factors play into the picture. For years, Red Bull have not had huge straightline speed but generated the fasted lap times. Yes, Drag is the down side to Downforce but the F2012 need Downforce, Downforce, Downforce and that is the balancing act!

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Cemz85]

the f2012 car was flawed from the beginning, they originally wanted the acer duct exhausts to direct exhaust gasses to the rear brakes, the acer ducts would also work to release cool air coming through the sidepods, which is why our radiators are and side pods are so high. obviosly mixing slower hot gasses with faster cool air to direct flow to the brake ducts cause all sorts of balance issues.. So they had to compromise the base structure of the coke bottle and sidepod area.. Ferrari wanted a very aggressive car for the start of the year, maybe way to aggressive if you ask me with the original acer ducts and high sidepods that create Lift.. All you have to do is look at Lotus, there exhaust system is soo simple, yet the whole package is base package is brilliant, too bad for them they focused too much on DDRS than anything else

[Nova]

Mabey the car simply cannot be developed any further...The car was never
really the fastest all season, at any track.
But at this point in the season, Im not sure what else they could bring to the table..
you never know..we may be top o the sheets in Q.
Be great!!

[dongtea]

Fernando Alonso will win his 3rd WDC, rest assured..

[SoumyaBanerjee]

the f2012 car was flawed from the beginning, they originally wanted the acer duct exhausts to direct exhaust gasses to the rear brakes, the acer ducts would also work to release cool air coming through the sidepods, which is why our radiators are and side pods are so high. obviosly mixing slower hot gasses with faster cool air to direct flow to the brake ducts cause all sorts of balance issues.. So they had to compromise the base structure of the coke bottle and sidepod area.. Ferrari wanted a very aggressive car for the start of the year, maybe way to aggressive if you ask me with the original acer ducts and high sidepods that create Lift.. All you have to do is look at Lotus, there exhaust system is soo simple, yet the whole package is base package is brilliant, too bad for them they focused too much on DDRS than anything else

Very well said. The coke bottle structure is one of ferrari's biggest weaknesses,and one that cannot be changed anymore...

[Kyss4k]

Mabey the car simply cannot be developed any further...The car was never
really the fastest all season, at any track.
But at this point in the season, Im not sure what else they could bring to the table..
you never know..we may be top o the sheets in Q.
Be great!!

I still remember, that Ferrari and even guys here on formus were saying that this car has a huge unused potential.

But I believe, that the problem behind all this lack of development succes is that freaking wind tunnel, which should be really "repaired" as soon as possible (tho even yesterday was way too late I fear) or just taken down... It is causing us so much troubles for at least last 3 years now.

[Gerhard Berger]

I still remember, that Ferrari and even guys here on formus were saying that this car has a huge unused potential.

But I believe, that the problem behind all this lack of development succes is that freaking wind tunnel, which should be really "repaired" as soon as possible (tho even yesterday was way too late I fear) or just taken down... It is causing us so much troubles for at least last 3 years now.

Well it was a brand new concept o logically one would think that it would have big development potential compared to say the RB8 which was a revolution of the previous RB cars. Like you said the windtunnel caused issues. The only updates which worked were those tested at Mugello.

[scuderiafan]

Sigh. It is getting to the point where I just want to go take a dump on the wind tunnel. I am sick and tired of hearing about correlation.

Luckily, I believe we are in good hands with the Toyota tunnel, and should have a heavily revised or brand new one very soon.

But do not blame the current team. This should have been done back in 2008/2009 not now. The fact that this has taken this long is not good and the former team members should have taken steps to rectify this.

[Kiwi Nick]

The really sad thing is that Ferrari have been "fixing" or claimed to have "fixed" the wind tunnel for almost five years. Claim it's fixed - find out that it is broken, claim it's fixed - find out that it is broken, claim it's fixed - find out that it is broken, claim it's fixed - find out that it is broken, claim it's fixed - find out that it is broken...

In the meantime, championships slip away because the cars are not a complete package. That the 2012 car is competitive at all is due to three things; 1) reliability, 2) Alonso's ability, 3) Macca and Red Bull failures. If Ferrari had control of the aerodynamics, this season would be a runaway Ferrari romp.

[FrankAlfa]

LOL, the more "Downforce" vs. less "Drag" equation goes on and on. Yes, those with better tools can take an advantage. Ferrari has old tools that need to replace them and they know this. it takes time to install and replace these new tools and then to become skilled at using them to there fullest. It is like working on and solving 3 problems an hour as opposed to working and solving 300 problems an hour. It as simply as that. They have the 3rd best race car and it will be hard to reach beyond this in such a short period of time especially with dated tool they are working with.

Ciao.

Forza Ferrari!!!!

[Nova]

So, aside from all of the B & M..are there any news parts coming to Japan?

[KennyBama]

How is it that all other teams are stepping up with upgrades. SF appears to back slide. Blame it on the wind tunnel, the mule, etc..
i think its time for a MGT change. And we will be waiting on that new tunnel. Completion is 2015. Im from the states and recently visited Maranello and the passion/support is there. But some key factor is almost extinct.

[Nova]

9 posts aey? Wheres Alabama?
Season isnt over...

[anuragiyer8989]

How is it that all other teams are stepping up with upgrades. SF appears to back slide. Blame it on the wind tunnel, the mule, etc..
i think its time for a MGT change. And we will be waiting on that new tunnel. Completion is 2015. Im from the states and recently visited Maranello and the passion/support is there. But some key factor is almost extinct.

Please don't think like that....we are all there with our team.
I don't want to but I agree with you that a mgmt change might help the thinking of the team......but apart from Alonso's skill and ability it's very disappointing to see our team down the grid

[SoumyaBanerjee]

Overall,i dont think SF's pace was that bad in quali...Alonso was very quick in Q2 and Q3...they were certainly a lot closer to McLaren here,perhaps almost as quick,though the damned Kimi's spinning off hurt our man's chances. The RB's though,were in a different planet...

[wacc]

Comparison of different louvres on rear wing end plates.
The wing on car 5 is new.



Edit:

The new wing. Fernando opted not to run before the start of Q. Felipe had it all saturday.



On Friday they even ran this rear wing. I can not remember seeing it before:

[scuderiafan]

"I think in the next races we will improve the car for sure. I think we did not improve too much in the last two or three grands prix but we have some good plans for the next races. So I'm sure we will have a more competitive approach," he said.

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/...his-situation-