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Thread: 1st Pre Season test - Jerez - All info and photos here

  1. #751
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    When is the next test?

  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkircher View Post
    When is the next test?
    02-19 – 02-22

  3. #753
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    Nice read when not puch news is about!!!!

    Will Ferrari’s holistic changes help match Red Bull?

    Changes made within the Maranello based team could lead to a closer run fight for the Constructor’s Championship in 2013.

    Monday, February 11, 2013

    By Briony Dixon

    February 11th, 2013 (F1plus / Briony Dixon).- Characterised by the fact that the phrase ‘Evolution, not revolution’ is rapidly becoming the most uttered and rather hackneyed term to describe development of the cars, the stable regulations for the 2013 season should result in a more evenly matched grid. Teams unable to achieve a suitably accelerated pace of development in 2012 have the chance to fire up those cylinders and make haste to catch those leading the way.

    At the launch of the RB9, Adrian Newey described how the lack of major changes led to this more evolutionary approach,
    “It’s really been a case of refining the RB8. There are no huge changes. It’s very much an evolutionary car. All the principles the same as last year.”

    He then went on to explain that development continues throughout the year and that the winter break has been no different to breaks between races,

    “It just so happens that we have had three months between races rather than two weeks.”

    There are differences between last year’s Championship winning car and the RB9, but they are small and would be more suited to the heading ‘improvements’. The slit across the front of the nose to increase airflow sported by Sauber last year, is now in evidence on the Red Bull, replacing the letterbox style hole used on the RB8. The Coanda exhaust system has been perfected and a monkey seat has been introduced to the rear of the car; a change adopted by most teams for 2013.

    With a relatively sideways step in terms of development by Red Bull, 2013 could be the season that Ferrari, runners up in the Championship race last year, are able to reach the same level of performance. However, the launch of the new Prancing Horse, the F138, didn’t reveal a considerable amount of changes either. Providing some aerodynamic benefit, the innovative front pull rod suspension used on the 2012 Ferrari, has been retained on the new challenger. The floor is more tightly encased so more air can charge through on its way to the diffuser, an improvement to the largely ineffective coke bottle area on the F2012. New for this year though are the slots on the rear wing end plate. As with the front pull rod suspension, this is another old Minardi innovation, dusted off and rekindled.

    While we wait to see the definitive aerodynamic developments at the second winter test in Barcelona, both of the teams seem to have taken the evolutionary approach. However, Ferrari have been more revolutionary in other aspects of the team. Identifying the need to strengthen the aerodynamics department, Loic Bigois was hired from Mercedes in 2012, a move that has been bolstered by the subsequent arrival of Briton Martin Bester from his position as aerodynamics team leader at Williams, in January this year. Having worked together previously at Williams, they should form a strong team.

    Dramatically restructuring their design team, personnel are now split between development on the 2013 car and designing the challenger for the 2014 season, which will see drastic regulation changes. Whilst it is the role of Chief Designer Nikolas Tombazis to chaperon both projects, Simone Resta is responsible for the F138, with Fabio Montecchi leading the way in design for 2014. In contrast, Red Bull have confirmed they are not in the position to take the same stance. When talking to the official Formula One website, Team Principal Christian Horner said,

    No we don’t have that big amount of resource. It is a matter of balancing your resource between 2013 and the challenge of 2014. That is one of the major challenges of this season, to juggle both developments.”

    The RB9 and the main members of the Red Bull team. (getty)

    Adrian Newey has a strong aero team around him, but it is he who is the design genius. It is imperative that he look forward to next year, to give the 2014 car a significant amount of his time, leaving a possible lull in development for the RB9 this season. This could be a potential frailty Ferrari could exploit.

    In 2012, the Maranello based team suffered from wind tunnel issues. In need of updating and improvement, their own wind tunnel was closed in 2012, resulting in a switch to the Toyota wind tunnel in Cologne. Having to correlate results between the two tunnels had a negative impact on the performance of the car last year; an issue that won’t be apparent in 2013 as outlined by Stefano Domenicalli,

    “I certainly expect to see greater efficiency than last year because we will no longer to carry out comparisons of data with the Maranello wind tunnel.”

    Another addition comes in the form of former driver Pedro de la Rosa, who joins the team as development driver; there to ensure the simulator programme reaches its full potential. In his test driver role for McLaren between 2003 and 2009, the Spaniard became very familiar with simulator work, thus making him an important component in Ferrari’s revolution, providing them with invaluable experience and knowledge.

    Having a very moderate start to the development race in 2012, it is vital this languid dawn isn’t repeated, a sentiment voiced by Domenicalli,

    “We have to make sure we avoid the start of the season as last year and even the year before. Because then it puts us in a situation where we spend a lot of resources and effort to catch up.”

    Testing in Jerez would so far suggest this isn’t the case. Although testing times are fairly meaningless due to variances in tyres and fuel load, Felipe Massa did top the time sheets on day three, but perhaps more importantly, revealed that there seems to be a huge difference in this year’s car, compared with the F2012 in terms of development at the beginning of the season.

    With a reinforced aerodynamics team, improvements to the simulator programme, and without the issue of tunnel correlation, it is not inconceivable that Ferrari could be a match for Red Bull in the war for the Constructor’s crown this season. While neither team has been particularly revolutionary in terms of design, changes in other areas mean Ferrari are holistically revolutionised for the 2013 season.

    The Bits in bold I particular find interesting...Good one christian...You dont have that many resources?!?!? ohh thats why you spend the most, what you really mean is that you need Adrian to have his full attention on one project because he is your reason for success not the breadth and depth in people!

  4. #754
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    Based on the tests, Ferrari are looking good. Certainly much better than last year. Quick and consistent long run pace. Fast on short runs too.

    It remains to be seen how much the other teams improve by but we are off to a good start which is so important. You are just playing catch up if you start off with a bad car.

    Concerns about the new gearbox. Has reliability been compromised for performance gains? And if the sidepods become smaller a la Sauber are we going to have cooling issues? We already have cockpit cooling issues. Hope that at least gets resolved otherwise it will be physically more uncomfortable to drive the F138.

  5. #755
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    I`m really nervous about RB strategy. They don`t whant o show us what their RB9 really can....

  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.M.I. View Post
    I`m really nervous about RB strategy. They don`t whant o show us what their RB9 really can....
    Red Bull rolled out a major change in Barcelona test, practically a new car, we all were expecting this, whether this will happen this year...i doubt it due to regulation stability! Even if they do, we saw last year how it wasnt the best move from them been so confident as it ook them atleast 5 races to understand their package! But be prepared to see a heavily revised car come Australia and last test as we know thwy to were strugglingg to get the car out on time! However the boys at ferrari will aloso be pushing to the max until the last hour before the race in AUS!

  7. #757
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    According to Gary Anderson, we are in a strong position and Red Bull might be in trouble. You may or may not give this much thought, but for me the numbers more or less add up, even if there are a few assumptions made:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Anderson
    Number crunching gives early F1 form guide - Gary Anderson


    On the face of it, the fastest lap times from the first pre-season Formula 1 test last week are meaningless - the cars are not in the order you would expect and some teams who you know will not be winning races were right up at the top.

    But I have been analysing the sheets of all the lap times done by the drivers and I think I have a way of producing a list that reflects pretty well the true competitive order of the new cars.

    That order has some big surprises in it - the quickest cars appear to be those of McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes, with Lotus not far behind. And Red Bull - the world champions for the last three years - look relatively slow. Let me explain how we get there.

    Let's start with the list of fastest times overall from the four days of the test, which looked like this:

    1. F Massa (Ferrari) 1:17.879, 2. K Raikkonen (Lotus) 1:18.148, 3. J Bianchi (Force India) 1:18.175, 4. R Grosjean (Lotus) 1:18.218, 5. S Vettel (Red Bull) 1:18.565, 6. E Gutierrez (Sauber) 1:18.669, 7. J-E Vergne (Toro Rosso) 1:18.760, 8. N Rosberg (Mercedes) 1:18.766, 9. J Button (McLaren) 1:18.861, 10. L Hamilton (McLaren) 1:18.905, 11. S Perez (McLaren) 1:18.944, 12. P di Resta (Force India) 1:19.003, 13. D Ricciardo (Toro Rosso) 1:19.134, 14. J Rossiter (Force India) 1:19.303, 15. M Webber (Red Bull) 1:19.338, 16. N Hulkenberg (Sauber) 1:19.502, 17. V Bottas (Williams) 1:19.851, 18. P de la Rosa (Ferrari) 1:20.316, 19. P Maldonado (Williams) 1:20.693, 20. C Pic (Caterham) 1:21.105, 21. L Razia (Marussia) 1:21.226, 22. M Chilton (Marussia) 1:21.269 23. G van der Garde (Caterham) 1:21.311

    The problem with that list is that you do not know how much fuel the cars had on board, and fuel weight makes a big difference to lap times. So on its own, the list is worthless.

    So, the next step is to look at how many laps the driver did on the run on which he set his fastest time. You know he must have at least that amount of fuel on board.

    Taking Massa as an example, his fastest time was set on a six-lap run, so he must have had at least six laps' worth of fuel on board.

    Each lap of fuel burnt is equivalent to a gain in performance of 0.086 seconds. Apply that calculation to Massa's time, and you get a potential lap time of 1:17.536.

    Do that for all the drivers, and the list looks like this:

    1. Massa 1:17.536, 2. Rosberg 1:17.566, 3. Grosjean 1:17.961, 4. Raikkonen 1:17.977, 5. Bianchi 1:18.004, 6. Vergne 1:18.160, 7. Vettel 1:18.308, 8. Perez 1:18.430, 9. Hamilton 1:18.476, 10. Gutierrez 1:18.498, 11. Button 1:18.690, 12. Di Resta 1:18.832, 13. Ricciardo 1:18.877, 14. Rossiter 1:19.132, 15. Webber 1:19.167, 16. Hulkenberg 1:19.331, 17. Bottas 1:19.508, 18. De La Rosa 1:19.887, 19. Maldonado 1:20.350, 20. Van Der Garde 1:20.882, 21. Pic 1:20.934, 22. Chilton 1:21.012, 23. Razia 1:21.226

    A few obvious things stand out immediately. First, the Ferrari is still at the top. Second, the Mercedes looks much more competitive - that is because Rosberg's time was set at the start of a 14-lap run. Third, the Red Bulls have slipped down the table.

    But this still is not the definitive list, because some of the teams try to disguise their true form in testing.

    So they will do a 'low-fuel' run - the one that sets their fastest overall time - with more fuel on board than they needed to make the car look slower than it is, for example.

    The ones that do it most tend to be the biggest teams. The smaller teams tend not to mess about. They want to know where they are. The big teams pretty much know they will be at the front, but they do not want their rivals to know exactly how quick they are.

    But there is a way around this.

    Nearly all the teams do longer runs on race-distance levels of fuel. By applying the time lost as a result of the extra fuel in the car, you can extrapolate back from the lap times they do at the start of these long runs to give another list of fastest laps.

    In theory, this list should match closely to the second list, the 'potential' lap times. If it does not you know either that the car was not full of fuel when it started its 'race' run or the car had more fuel than it needed when it did its headline lap time in the first list.

    Most of the times do match reasonably closely - the 'potential' and 'high-fuel adjusted' times of both Red Bulls, for example, were within 0.3secs, and the same went for Raikkonen's Lotus.

    The Saubers' times were almost identical, as were those of Williams and Force India. See what I meant about the smaller teams?

    Unfortunately, Massa and Rosberg did not do representative high-fuel runs, but that's not necessarily a problem - I think their fastest times were on pretty low fuel, so are probably pretty representative.

    The key point is that anyone who has a quicker 'high-fuel adjusted' time than 'potential' time was almost certainly running more fuel than they needed when they did their 'headline' time.

    The prime offenders here are the McLarens - but that is not a surprise, as it is well-known they rarely run low fuel in testing.

    So, the Gary Anderson list of fully adjusted lap times from Jerez looks like this:

    1. Perez 1:17.315, 2. Massa* 1:17.536, 3. Rosberg* 1:17.566, 4. Button 1:17.857, 5. Grosjean 1:17.961, 6. Raikkonen 1:17.977, 7. Bianchi 1:18.004, 8. Vettel 1:18.045, 9. Vergne* 1:18.160, 10. Gutierrez 1:18.465, 11. Hamilton 1:18.476, 12. Di Resta 1:18.562, 13. Ricciardo 1:18.877, 14. Webber 1:18.953, 15. Rossiter 18.966, 16. Hulkenberg 1:19.331, 17. Bottas 1:19.508, 18. De La Rosa* 1:19.887, 19. Maldonado 1:20.350, 20. Van Der Garde* 1:20.882, 21. Pic* 1:20.934, 22. Chilton 1:21.012, 23. Razia 1:21.226

    * = no lap time that constitutes a high fuel load

    The interesting thing here is that, in lots of aspects, the list is what most in F1 initially suspected by the end of last week.

    Button's time here is calculated from the basis of his fastest lap on day one, which Massa described as "incredible" because it was done on hard tyres, on a dirty track and on the first day of the car's life. So everyone thought the McLaren looked quick.

    Likewise, the Ferrari was also obviously fast and the Lotus looked there or thereabouts - very consistent but not perhaps quite on the outright pace of the McLaren or Ferrari.

    The big surprise is Red Bull, who appear to have some work to do. And the Mercedes - which is a fair bit faster than people expected, at least in Rosberg's hands.

    Hamilton, meanwhile, is a long way down the list.

    His times are anomalous. Unlike Rosberg, he did do a race run, and it was very slow. But perhaps that's not a surprise, as it was race pace that Mercedes struggled with in 2012.

    And Hamilton's fastest single lap seemed disproportionately slow. But then it was his first proper day's running with a new team in a car with which he was not familiar, and we do not know how much fuel he had on board.

    Of course, this is just one test and there is a lot of development to be done before the first race. So it would be wrong to think this will definitively predict the competitive picture in Melbourne on 16 March, let alone the destiny of the world championship.

    But it certainly sets things up in an intriguing way.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21417831

  8. #758
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    Why does he not take tyres into account?
    Forza Ferrari

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    Why does he not take tyres into account?
    Andrew Benson says it was "deliberately left out because Jerez is such a different surface it is very difficult to put a number to each different compound".


    Unfortunately they didn't take track evolution into account.

  10. #760
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    I'm sorry, but that is spraff. There is no way that the RedBull can be that slow. Especially not slower than Mercedes, who like their headline times.
    I guess Felipe didn't do long enough runs to take that into account.

    Of course I could be wrong, but I see this as only a sound bite designed to keep us interested until Barcelona. However it seems that the general consensus is that McLaren are fastest so far, as most observers have them ahead.


    In Stefano Domenicali, we have a team boss who has proved to be a leader. - Luca diMontezemelo

  11. #761
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    I would say the order remains the same as last year:

    1. Mclaren 2. Red Bull 3. Ferrari / Lotus 4. Mercedes

    Merc are clearly into their 2014 car, I doubt they will be competitive this year.

  12. #762
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    @ Ophidian786,

    What do you base your opinion on??? What Facts? or is it just a "Gut Feeling"???

    I have to laugh a bit when people make their opinions which don't really have any factual basis.

    I personally think it is much to early to make an opinion yet. The cars will be developed and will change quite a bit before the first race.

    People must also remember that this first test is just a means to establish more of a "Datum" or "Baseline" to start from and System check, than any real or meaningful speed check.

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!

  13. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    @ Ophidian786,

    What do you base your opinion on??? What Facts? or is it just a "Gut Feeling"???

    I have to laugh a bit when people make their opinions which don't really have any factual basis.
    Definition of 'opinion' according to the Oxford Dictionary:

    "A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."


    On Topic: To entertain your argument, not much has changed in the rules since last year. The cars are described as 'evolutions' of the previous cars by the likes of Newey. Bearing this in mind, it is only logical to believe that those that were at the top will stay at the top this year. The only hope we have, however, is that we were so far back last year that we have far more room to 'evolve' than the other top teams.

    Bearing the though process in mind, I came to what I would consider, an informed opinion.

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankAlfa View Post
    @ Ophidian786,

    What do you base your opinion on??? What Facts? or is it just a "Gut Feeling"???

    I have to laugh a bit when people make their opinions which don't really have any factual basis.
    What's so funny that makes you laugh? Most of the forum members here are not engineers or data analysers but still take interest in the sport, try to post what they feel or what they expect to happen... They may not eventually turn right but that doesn't mean they don't have right to post their opinion.

    You keep reminding us "I am from engineering background", some of us like me are also educated with that degree but I am sure F1 is not restricted to only engineering graduates. People can have their own opinion & to be honest I don't find it funny.

  15. #765
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    chill. what is important is that ferrari is on track. the F138 seems to be competitive unlike the F2012

    Hell would have broken loose

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Lorca View Post
    Andrew Benson says it was "deliberately left out because Jerez is such a different surface it is very difficult to put a number to each different compound".


    Unfortunately they didn't take track evolution into account.
    And that's the reason I don't care what experts said about the picking order in Jerez. Let's wait and see in Barcelona

  17. #767
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    Please any link from Barselona

  18. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massimo View Post
    Although in Italy it could mean we have a new pope
    how did you know ... ;)

  19. #769
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    its next week

  20. #770
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    LOL. Sorry to cause a bit of noise. Opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to their's. I am just saying that it really is a bit to early to form a credible opinion until the teams have finished their development and are at the first race. That said, we have our early opinions about the cars and the season ahead. So "respect" is the word of the day. I am sorry for any offence to anyone.

    Ciao,

    Forza Ferrari!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by medeni73 View Post
    its next week
    My fault. I thought that this week will be a testing

  22. #772
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    The only sure thing about Jerez is that we do not appear to have built another dog!
    Trying to be less angry..

  23. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Singer View Post
    The only sure thing about Jerez is that we do not appear to have built another dog!

    As far as we know..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    As far as we know..
    I thought the same way, but there is something that gives me hope.

    Last year Alonso did finish on top of the time sheets in Jerez on one of the test days. It was quite clear that Ferrari were checking how fast the car actually was, despite this it was still 4 tenths off Grojean's best time of the week. I think Alonso did a 1.18.8 last year. Further to this Lotus did turn out to be one of the quickest alongside Mclaren at the beginning of 2012. So Grojean's time did provide some indication.

    This year we are the fastest in Jerez by some margin. That is not to say we will blitz everyone, but I think we are certainly 'competitive' right now.

    Hope I am right anyways haha

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    I for one do believe that some news insiders have a little more info than some, specially because i believe the teams have each their counterintelligence people, remember this is a billion dollars businesses. have heard a little hint from someone and felipe just heard and was noddin along, that the reason redbull was lacking a little in the beggining of last season, is yet the same reason now mercedes and redbull might be doing it again this season. just like the jump made from 08 to 09, they seem to be... how should we put it?? let's just say nobody in F1 ever takes that hole-in-one shot, cause it almost never really happens, so the key is have a good foundation (like we had) and then work from there like we did all the way to 08.

    Your first year with that complete new look might not be the winner of that season, but if it's a foundation that you can shave off time, rather than add, keep it. Last season was our big makeover remember? and it was not good, the car was a horse (in a not so good way) the fact that fernando kept fighting for the championship was very misleading, hell looking back now it's like he never really had a chance, i think we blamed felipe way too much, cause fernando made it look easy. in short: we biult a foundation that had no way of moving forward (regarding speed) all they were able to do was make it easier to drive, the car wasn't as unpredictable as it was in the beginning, with so many different drivers winning and losing the only consistant there was exactly Fernando, never the car.

    I always remember how at the end of 08 Felipe said (one day after interlagos) that for the future redbull would be a big rival, and at the time when we heard him say that, we were like? huh? thinking it was still going to stay ferrari and mclaren as it had been. and that comment came from nowhere really, since in 08 redbull was nothing.

    My point is, if Brawn(mercedes) came out of nowhere in 09, this redbull we are still seeing out there was a beast that came with warning, so until the first race, everybody to me is a threat.

    The only thing i think we can really compare during these tests is the reliability of our cars vs the competition.


    T
    he art isn't in never falling but in always getting up.

  26. #776
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    A very nice little video, all be it, from Ted on the other teams, specifically from 6min onwards in which he analyses each car in detail with pics! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGJvMZbgp4o

  27. #777
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    It's a useful video indeed, but I can't stand that man! I remember a lot of interviews with him and he is also so negative about Ferrari. But unfortunately there are a lot of reports on British television who don't like Ferrari.

  28. #778
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    Guys have a look on the ferrari website and the video in the "video gallery" with pat fry called "technical point"! Short 5 min vido with Pat fry explaining what happened in Jerez and plan for barcelona! Link to the website: http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/Pages/Home.aspx

  29. #779
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    is there will be live streaming for this 2nd test?

  30. #780
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    Quote Originally Posted by fronaldo View Post
    is there will be live streaming for this 2nd test?
    No, because during winter testing, there's no any camera crew to capture video and broadcast these testing. They don't broadcast winter testing.

    However, this year I believe SkySports will for the first time (at least as far as I can remember), broadcast the last 4 days of winter testing, which is the 3rd week. So we may be able to watch, if someone stream it online.

    But that's the 3rd week. 2nd test, as usual no any video stream.

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