F1 race director Charlie Whiting says protected cockpits will happen

[Giallo 550]

So that makes it ok then? Seriously?

I never said it was okay. My point was that the comparison is valid.

[Greig]

I never said it was okay. My point was that the comparison is valid.

It's really not, but oh well you can carry on believing so.

Jules might still be dead with closed cockpit it's not just about his accident, that is what you call knee jerk.

[Giallo 550]

It's really not, but oh well you can carry on believing so.

I logically proved it is, with all due respect.

[Greig]

I logically proved it is, with all due respect.

No you never.

[Giallo 550]

No you never.

Let me make it more clear.

If a tire randomly explodes at high speed, the tire is unsafe.

If an open cockpit is propelled at an irresponsibly placed tractor at high speed during poor conditions, the irresponsibly placed tractor and poor conditions are unsafe.

The FIA blaming an open cockpit for injury instead of taking responsibility for the the irresponsibly placed tractor and poor conditions while simultaneously not taking issue with unsafe tires is hypocritical.

[Rob]

Not even IndyCar are saying about closed cockpits.

Im all for safety. Not saying it bad thing. If this terrible freak accident didnt happen. This subject would of come up. Ok, if go closed cockpits. What then next? inclose the wheels with bodywork, then the teams would use that to build in wings for aero. Then we got F1 cars looking like LMP cars, or like the horrible Red Bull X1 from GT5. Then cars be cornering faster. Alot faster, then when have big crash and cars get air, body work flying all over place, over fencing and injury or worse to marshalls and fans, then what? All races be done on inclosed tracks? with no fans.

[Greig]

Let me make it more clear.

If a tire randomly explodes at high speed, the tire is unsafe.

If an open cockpit is propelled at an irresponsibly placed tractor at high speed during poor conditions, the irresponsibly placed tractor and poor conditions are unsafe.

The FIA blaming an open cockpit for injury instead of taking responsibility for the the irresponsibly placed tractor and poor conditions while simultaneously not taking issue with unsafe tires is hypocritical.

Well we can't race without tyres, we can race with closed cockpits is where your point falls down rather spectacularly. And again this is not just about Jules.

In fact the FIA inquiry actually says.

11. It is not feasible to mitigate the injuries Bianchi suffered by either enclosing the driver’s cockpit, or fitting skirts to the crane. Neither approach is practical due to the very large forces involved in the accident between a 700kg car striking a 6500kg crane at a speed of 126kph. There is simply insufficient impact structure on a F1 car to absorb the energy of such an impact without either destroying the driver’s survival cell, or generating non-survivable decelerations.

It is considered fundamentally wrong to try and make an impact between a racing car and a large and heavy vehicle survivable. It is imperative to prevent a car ever hitting the crane and/or the marshals working near it.

[Greig]

Not even IndyCar are saying about closed cockpits.

Im all for safety. Not saying it bad thing. If this terrible freak accident didnt happen. This subject would of come up. Ok, if go closed cockpits. What then next? inclose the wheels with bodywork, then the teams would use that to build in wings for aero. Then we got F1 cars looking like LMP cars, or like the horrible Red Bull X1 from GT5. Then cars be cornering faster. Alot faster, then when have big crash and cars get air, body work flying all over place, over fencing and injury or worse to marshalls and fans, then what? All races be done on inclosed tracks? with no fans.

Taking a pretty big leap there mate, F1 has already lost spectators and marshalls to accidents like that, and they reacted so it's much safer.

[Giallo 550]

Well we can't race without tyres

Straw Man Argument. Nobody is talking about racing without tires.

[Greig]

Straw Man Argument. Nobody is talking about racing without tires.

So why are you trying to compare them in such a ridiculous manner?

[Rob]

Taking a pretty big leap there mate, F1 has already lost spectators and marshalls to accidents like that, and they reacted so it's much safer.

with the way the world is going mate. Things happen quick. Look at Shoreham, now airshows be more restricted. Soon, an airshow may just be a plane fly left to right then right to left then lands.

If it happens it happens, but will not be the same.

[Giallo 550]

So why are you trying to compare them in such a ridiculous manner?

I'm still waiting for you to show how my proof is wrong without using logical fallacies.

[Rob]

Ok, just found this....

IndyCar: Canopy manufacturer open to testing options for Dallara DW12

GNP GN2 2893The best-known manufacturer of open-wheel chassis canopies says they'd welcome the opportunity to work with the Verizon IndyCar Series and determine whether the devices would be a suitable option to enhance driver safety.

Indianapolis-based Aerodine Composites manufactures custom canopies used on 300mph NHRA Top Fuel dragsters, and with more than 25 years of involvement in Indy car racing, coming together to build and test prototypes for IndyCar's spec Dallara DW12 chassis is not out of the realm of possibilities.

"The technology is out there to do some simulations and some live testing," Aerodine president Craig McCarthy told RACER Monday morning. "We've seen the FIA testing video with canopies and even some NASCAR guys launching things out of an air cannon at wind screens, and I know IndyCar invests in seat testing and headrest testing, and maybe opening it up to try some things that are outside the box might be a worthwhile alternative."
F1: FIA technical director says "Protected cockpits will happen"

McCarthy watched the Pocono race with his son on Sunday, and both witnessed the fatal incident where Justin Wilson was struck in the helmet by a piece of debris. In the interest of safety, he says his first instinct was to collaborate with IndyCar to find a conclusive answer on the topic of canopy use with open-wheel Indy cars.
"It was a tragedy, and unfortunately, it isn't the first time we've seen that type of situation," McCarthy said. "You can never protect against every possible situation, but you can try to reduce the odds, and that's what we're looking at here. It's a question of interest, though. We can fabricate something for them, but that's only half the battle. The other half is perception.

"Some may have a positive reaction to canopy use, and others might not. We're all scientists and engineers here on our side and at IndyCar, and having the data to prove or disprove canopies in this application is what would help to either rule them out, or confirm it can work. Not knowing makes it hard to take one direction or the other."
GNP GN2 4194Of the concerns expressed with incorporating some form of canopy to cover an exposed Indy car cockpit, complications with driver extraction and fire risks are cited.

"The number one comment we get is, 'What happens if there's a fire?'" McCarthy noted. "And that's a legitimate concern in an Indy car where you're sitting on the fuel tank. In a Top Fuel car, the fuel tank is 15 feet away, although the main fuel line does run through the cockpit. On the drag racing side, we designed a system with all kinds of ways to remove the canopy from inside the car, from outside the car, and we've added features for fire extinguisher access holes and have tried think of every type of situation. And there's situations where having a canopy could be worse, or it could be better. Until it's tested and tried, it's hard to say one way or the other."

Aerodine's familiarity with the DW12 chassis would seem to place the composites firm in a unique position to aid IndyCar in its quest to reduce future helmet-based strikes like the one suffered by Wilson. As a licensed Dallara repair facility, McCarthy says they perform chassis repairs on behalf of the Italian racecar constructor, and have a solid understanding of the DW12's structural core. His preference, however, would be to integrate a canopy into a brand-new Indy car chassis.

"When you try and retro-fit existing cars, it's a little dicey; you'd always rather incorporate a new design like a canopy into a new chassis from the outset, but it's not impossible to come up with something that could be tried on the DW12," he explained. "And all we're thinking about at this point is trying out some ideas, whatever they are, to see if it's the right solution for these kinds of cars. It's all speculation until that happens."

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/12...r-dallara-dw12

[Greig]

I'm still waiting for you to show how my proof is wrong without using logical fallacies.

I have no desire to argue such a ridiculous comparison as it would only further entice you to repeat it.

[Silent Bob]

I'm kind of on the fence on this topic. F1 is open wheel racing and that to me means an open cockpit as well. It really does distinguish itself from LMP by the fact that we can see the drivers. Not sure it adds so much to the spectacle, but for some reason I think it is more exciting to watch an F1 car or Indy car race than an LMP
WEC race. I'm all for protecting the drivers but I think a closed cockpit is going too far. Maybe a higher windshield or front deflector might work.
Nobody wants to see anybody get seriously hurt or injured so to state that people who want F1 to remain what F1 is, don't care about the safety of the drivers is a silly argument.

[Brembo]

There has to be someone who can produce a extremely safer helmet and face shield covering more of the driver. I believe it's the head injuries that are the most common and the worse in most sports especially F1. An example was the accident Michael had skiing.

[Hornet]

Not even IndyCar are saying about closed cockpits.

Im all for safety. Not saying it bad thing. If this terrible freak accident didnt happen. This subject would of come up. Ok, if go closed cockpits. What then next? inclose the wheels with bodywork, then the teams would use that to build in wings for aero. Then we got F1 cars looking like LMP cars, or like the horrible Red Bull X1 from GT5. Then cars be cornering faster. Alot faster, then when have big crash and cars get air, body work flying all over place, over fencing and injury or worse to marshalls and fans, then what? All races be done on inclosed tracks? with no fans.

I see that a lot, but I think the point that is missing is that safety measures are not taken arbitrarily. They are taken after all pros and cons are considered.

The safety benefits of an enclosed cockpit is completely different from enclosed wheels. Cockpit safety is necessary because there's no other way to mitigate huge impacts, and helmets are not crash structures. But with wheels, the safety concern is lesser, and so no one is saying they should be closed too.

As for spectator's safety, you have 2 choice. You can build a wall, but then spectators won't be able to see the track. Or, you can build a really tall fence and the spectators can still see the car. What did they do? Build tall fences, that's what you see at all F1 circuits today. That's how it works.

If they were really concerned about safety you'd think they would do something about the "designed to be bad" tyres. Or perhaps they're thinking that if they fit canopies to the cars they can makes the tyres even worse?

Tires were not designed to explode. In fact, last season Pirelli did the right thing by changing the construction of the tire after Silverstone. They reacted to failures, and that is the important point.

Sure, the tires are still failing, but it's an engineering problem rather than due to inaction. This is the difference.

I'm kind of on the fence on this topic. F1 is open wheel racing and that to me means an open cockpit as well. It really does distinguish itself from LMP by the fact that we can see the drivers. Not sure it adds so much to the spectacle, but for some reason I think it is more exciting to watch an F1 car or Indy car race than an LMP
WEC race. I'm all for protecting the drivers but I think a closed cockpit is going too far. Maybe a higher windshield or front deflector might work.
Nobody wants to see anybody get seriously hurt or injured so to state that people who want F1 to remain what F1 is, don't care about the safety of the drivers is a silly argument.

I think people need to understand when we have the luxury of choosing aesthetics, or have a personal preference, and when we do not. Open wheel and open cockpit is a personal preference. F1 never set out to be an open cockpit car just for the sake of it, it just happened to be a design of choice give what were known at that time they started building race cars. It just happened to be one of the remaining part of the car that has yet to evolve, but no where is it written that it cannot change, like all the other 99% of the car had. So when people claim that F1 should remain open cockpit above all else, often my reaction is "says who?".

The difference however, is when it comes to open wheel, we have the luxury of having our own choice. So I don't have a problem if people prefers open wheels. There are some danger associated to it, but in most cases they are mitigated by the fact that the drivers are well protected even if the car overturns (unless you are in Alonso's shoe in Spa's crash, but that's due to the lack of protective cockpit). Likewise, I don't have a problem when people have their preference whether F1 should use hybrid technology go stay purely gasoline, because neither makes the car any more dangerous than the other, it's not a safety issue.

However, we do not have that luxury when it comes to open cockpit, as it is a huge weakness in the driver's protection. We've developed some of the best technology in making a "tank" to protect the driver, but then we leave an opening around what's arguably the most important and vulnerable part of the human body.

There has to be someone who can produce a extremely safer helmet and face shield covering more of the driver. I believe it's the head injuries that are the most common and the worse in most sports especially F1. An example was the accident Michael had skiing.

The weakness with helmet is that it's attached to the driver's head. Although helmets today are more resistant to being penetrated by objects in a crash, nothing can be done about the force of the impact itself. When there's a huge impact on the helmet, all that force will transfer to the driver's head.

[wisepie]

I'm not sure that most fans watch motor-racing for the danger aspect, I'd rather used the word excitement. None of us want drivers to be injured or killed, we just want to be entertained and able to watch competitive racing by those drivers lucky enough to be able to do it. We have all witnessed the reactions to the accidents listed, the sport is dangerous but that's certainly not why I watch it. Head protection is vital if we want to avoid further tragedies.

[mirafiori]

SAFETY is the most IMPORTANT aspect of anything we do in life but the FIA and Charlie have got some front to talk about closed cockpits, why don't they talk about the reason why we lost poor Jules, how I understand it even with a Closed cockpit the impact would of still caused his brain trauma. I find it disgusting the real reason has been swept under the carpet and we still have races on the calendar with the start time to late in countries which are renowned for heavy rain with fading natural daylight, all this for the greed of a few people and now Jules is no longer here. Even the sport of Cricket will stop play with poor daylight and yes people playing cricket have been killed. I would love to see the Bianchi family take legal action against the FIA and with the payout set up a charity in the name of Jules Bianchi.

[Nova]

F1 will soon look like Lemans racers..Nothing wrong w/that if it protects drivers...what I dont understand is, why arent they looking at why Pirelli's simply explode? Are they waiting for someone to get hurt?

I think that if they really wanted to protect drivers, they should be looking into this...

[Ed Harley]

FIA is testing several ways to protect the driver. This one is by Mercedes.

[TigerKing]

Again, just because the sport is dangerous, doesn't mean there should not be any attempt to reduce the danger. Should they not introduce carbon fiber monocoque or HANS device just because the sport is always dangerous?


It's not a kneejerk reaction, it was a safety weakness that should have been addressed a long time ago. The red flag was there for a long time.

And you'll have to give a compelling reason why closed cockpit should not be introduced. The reason has to outweight the benefits of safety. Wanting to stick to old ways is not good enough, especially in a sport where it's supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport. Can't be the pinnacle if it refuse to evolve.

Carbon Fibre Monocoque and HANS didn't change how the cars looked substantially (Carbon Fibre actually made it faster). I am actually interested in Mercedes' blade option that the FIA is gonna test soon. Maybe it might look ok and may actually prevent more head injuries. I just don't like the closed cockpit idea but I'm open to safer open cockpits.

[Rob]

FIA is testing several ways to protect the driver. This one is by Mercedes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opZzDv_C9eQ

that is terrible. Sorry to say.

[AfterLife]

Can add Maria De Villota to that list, and I am struggling to understand why people are saying this is a knee jerk reaction? It's been talked about and looked into by the FIA for a long time. The list clearly shows where the danger in F1 comes from and for me it's not an acceptable risk that the sport can just ignore. F1 does not need death or open cockpits to be exciting.

Yes indeed. I had forgotten that one, So another head related accident:

2009- Henry surtees - Wheel hitting his head - Death
2009- Felipe Massa - Spring hitting his head - Crushing part of skull
2012- Romain Grosjean and Fernando Alonso 2012 Spa crash - Fortunately nothing Happened
2012- Maria De Villota - collided with a stationary truck - Crushed skull and lost of an eye and lost of senses of smell and taste and one year later because of cardiac arrest she died with it being believed that the underlying cause may have been related to her 2012 accident.
2013- Lewis Hamiltons's tire blowup in front of Fernando Alonso in Silverston - Luckily nothing happened but engineers said that the debris could easily enter into Fernando Alonso's helmet like a bullet.
2014- Jules Bianchi - collided with the rear of a tractor crane - Death
2015- Kimi Raikkonen and Fernando Alonso Austria - Fortunately nothing happened
2015- Justin Wilson - part of the other car's nose hitting his head - Death

8 head related and near miss accidents in 7 years that 4 of them were fatal and the rest could be fatal easily.

Obviously head related accidents in open cockpit cars are seriously dangerous and life threatening but avoidable with introduction of head protection.

[WS6TransAm01]

And what's going to happen if the latch on the canopy fails and a driver burns inside the cockpit? Do we install ejection seats and blow the canopy hinges with small pyrotechnic charges? Come on guys. Knee jerk reactions are not the way to solve anything. This is why the good people of England can't own firearms and yet have to deal with the highest violent crime rate of amg developed country in the world.

You can't solve problems with visceral, reactionary decisions. You need to examine the cause, and then propose solutions not just scream "he hurt his head let's change the cars"

It's rediculous.

[Rob]

And what's going to happen if the latch on the canopy fails and a driver burns inside the cockpit? Do we install ejection seats and blow the canopy hinges with small pyrotechnic charges? Come on guys. Knee jerk reactions are not the way to solve anything. This is why the good people of England can't own firearms and yet have to deal with the highest violent crime rate of amg developed country in the world.

You can't solve problems with visceral, reactionary decisions. You need to examine the cause, and then propose solutions not just scream "he hurt his head let's change the cars"

It's rediculous.

sorry off topic, but no we have not, and whats going on in the land of the free over past week?

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top...ime-rates.html

[AfterLife]

And what's going to happen if the latch on the canopy fails and a driver burns inside the cockpit? Do we install ejection seats and blow the canopy hinges with small pyrotechnic charges? Come on guys. Knee jerk reactions are not the way to solve anything. This is why the good people of England can't own firearms and yet have to deal with the highest violent crime rate of amg developed country in the world.

You can't solve problems with visceral, reactionary decisions. You need to examine the cause, and then propose solutions not just scream "he hurt his head let's change the cars"

It's rediculous.

Canopy is a proposal among many other proposals not a firm solution. Why do you stuck on canopy?! By the way it is not a knee jerk reaction. FIA are testing many solutions from 2009 onward. There is a reason that I listed those accidents. As you see head related accidents in open cockpit cars are the most fatal accidents that we see these days.

[Rob]

Canopy is a proposal among many other solutions not a firm solution. Why do you stuck on canopy?! By the way it is not a knee jerk reaction. FIA are testing many solutions from 2009 onward. There is a reason that I listed those accidents. As you see head related accidents are the most fatal accidents that we see these days.

Canopy is the only safe solution. Even with Mercs horrible design the drivers head is still vulnerable. As not totally closed.

[AfterLife]

Canopy is the only safe solution. Even with Mercs horrible design the drivers head is still vulnerable. As not totally closed.

I have no idea. I don't have any facilities to test proposed solutions to see which one is safer. How do you know that?

Here is what Charlie Whiting says:
"We had the fighter jet cockpit approach, but the downsides to that significantly outweighed the upsides"

Full article: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120489

[Ed Harley]

Canopy is the only safe solution. Even with Mercs horrible design the drivers head is still vulnerable. As not totally closed.

Yes. If the safety is the issue here then the canopy is the only one providing protection from all directions - limitation being the materials to be used.