2014 Regulations.(engine/aero etc etc)

**brembo man** · 16th May 2013, 16:32

Will they be carrying a lot less fuel with a smaller turbo engine using less. And how much weight will that save.

**Aberracus** · 16th May 2013, 17:35

Originally Posted by Forzi

There wont be a beam wing at the rear, on which the monkey seat is attached, so that wont happen either. FIA really pulled a big one to get rid of exhaust gass blowing this time.

EDIT: scratch that, did some research. A monkey seat will be allowed, just no beam wing or any other body work that goes past 150mm zone at the center of the car. So blowing it is possible, though not sure of how big the gain is.

Wouldn't be surprised if we would see the Monkey Seats designed much more like the DRD style seat of Lotus. The exhaust will exit exacly where the current beam wing is. It would be pretty efficient, since the tips of the exhausts would be directly where the vertical supports and the horizontal elements the teams would put are.

That would be a disaster, Newey is the king of the Blow diffuser.

**FranksterGM** · 16th May 2013, 18:55

Will the engines be rev limited?
I heard 15,000 rpm

**Alonso14** · 16th May 2013, 19:50

15k rpm indeed.

**Bubbles** · 17th May 2013, 02:31

The engines are indeed limited to 15,000 RPM, but they're also fuel-flow limited. The bad news is that the engines will reach that limit at about 11,000 RPM, meaning you're probably going to see cars spending most of their time at that RPM.

That was quite a dirty move the FIA pulled there. Initially, the limit was 12,000, but because of objections from various parties - most notably circuit owners - they increased the limit by another 3,000, as though that makes any difference. It was like giving them the finger.

Surely Jean Todt is mentally ill.

**brembo man** · 17th May 2013, 03:26

I wonder if reduced RPMs means reduced torque, kind of like legal engine mapping.

**Hornet** · 17th May 2013, 06:58

Originally Posted by Bubbles

The engines are indeed limited to 15,000 RPM, but they're also fuel-flow limited. The bad news is that the engines will reach that limit at about 11,000 RPM, meaning you're probably going to see cars spending most of their time at that RPM.

That was quite a dirty move the FIA pulled there. Initially, the limit was 12,000, but because of objections from various parties - most notably circuit owners - they increased the limit by another 3,000, as though that makes any difference. It was like giving them the finger.

Surely Jean Todt is mentally ill.

This whole turbo V6 shouldn't have happened in the first place. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of automobile technology and we will be having V6 while Ferrari's road car have V12! Even then, we're lucky the circuit owners stepped in because the initial plan was a 4 cylinder engine.

**Nero Horse** · 17th May 2013, 17:47

I hope there will be a day when the V10 or even V12 engines return to F1. If we're going back to V6 Turbos that were last used in 1988 then there's always a possibility that someday we'll go back to V10/V12 engines again...a man can dream.

**zoocheatah** · 18th May 2013, 12:41

how much does one of the new engines cost next year? Is it more than this year?

**FranksterGM** · 18th May 2013, 12:47

Originally Posted by zoocheatah

how much does one of the new engines cost next year? Is it more than this year?

You would think they would be more expensive, with the development costs.
current engines have been frozen for a few years.

They will probably freeze the turbo engines when they get reliable and there is somewhat of a parity in performance.

**Jas** · 18th May 2013, 22:09

Ferrari are charging around 17million...mercades 20mill and renault going all out and charging 24million! This will include transmission etc...but how many you get I dont know! I think where only allowed four engines per driver next year aswell, stupid considering their new to next year!

**Bubbles** · 18th May 2013, 22:45

Originally Posted by Jas

Ferrari are charging around 17million...mercades 20mill and renault going all out and charging 24million! This will include transmission etc...but how many you get I dont know! I think where only allowed four engines per driver next year aswell, stupid considering their new to next year!

Five engines in 2014, four from 2015 onward.

**Bubbles** · 18th May 2013, 22:50

Originally Posted by Hornet

This whole turbo V6 shouldn't have happened in the first place. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of automobile technology and we will be having V6 while Ferrari's road car have V12! Even then, we're lucky the circuit owners stepped in because the initial plan was a 4 cylinder engine.

What worries me is that LeMans prototypes - those sexy LMP1s - are damn fast. And, they have potential for lots of aero development: they're much larger, covered wheels, they have about the same amount of power as current F1 cars - and probably more starting from next year.

The mighty Formula 1 is going to embarrass itself from 2014. A pointless sacrifice at the green altar.

EDIT: Those LMP1 probably generate about the same amount of downforce as a current F1 car, and they have a big rear wing, unlike F1 cars. My question is this: Do LMP1 drivers complain about lack of overtaking or is it a disease specific to Formula 1?

**Bubbles** · 18th May 2013, 22:56

Originally Posted by Jas

Ferrari are charging around 17million...mercades 20mill and renault going all out and charging 24million! This will include transmission etc...but how many you get I dont know! I think where only allowed four engines per driver next year aswell, stupid considering their new to next year!

That's crazy! So the difference between the Ferrari offer and the Renault one is the price of the current V8 engines. Madness. I guess Renault really need the money.

**Bubbles** · 18th May 2013, 22:58

Originally Posted by Hornet

This whole turbo V6 shouldn't have happened in the first place. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of automobile technology and we will be having V6 while Ferrari's road car have V12! Even then, we're lucky the circuit owners stepped in because the initial plan was a 4 cylinder engine.

Maybe the initial plan should have moved forward and let Todt make a fool of himself. This guy's acting like a politician, and those usually have no clue what they're doing.

**shamim179** · 18th May 2013, 23:39

Renault can charge a premium over other engine manufacturers as it is their engine in a red bull car that has won 6 titles in 3 years in a row.

Has Ferrari priced their engine too low? Setting a low price can give a perception of a lower quality than a higher priced one. I don't think that is the case though as the customers are knowledgeable enough to know which ones are of good quality. I also think it is to make it more attractive to the other teams.

**Bubbles** · 19th May 2013, 00:32

Originally Posted by shamim179

Renault can charge a premium over other engine manufacturers as it is their engine in a red bull car that has won 6 titles in 3 years in a row.

Has Ferrari priced their engine too low? Setting a low price can give a perception of a lower quality than a higher priced one. I don't think that is the case though as the customers are knowledgeable enough to know which ones are of good quality. I also think it is to make it more attractive to the other teams.

Well, I think people are going to be shocked at the engine Ferrari are going to produce. You only need to look at their supercars to get an idea of what they're capable of. It's going to get brutal in 2014.

**Nero Horse** · 19th May 2013, 00:36

Originally Posted by Bubbles

The mighty Formula 1 is going to embarrass itself from 2014. A pointless sacrifice at the green altar.

That's true unfortunately.

**izybluffen** · 19th May 2013, 07:28

Originally Posted by Hornet

This whole turbo V6 shouldn't have happened in the first place. F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of automobile technology and we will be having V6 while Ferrari's road car have V12! Even then, we're lucky the circuit owners stepped in because the initial plan was a 4 cylinder engine.

Turbo power "is" the pinnacle of motor racing, even though the 2014 motors wont be. Just look at any car racing in the world where turbos were introduced and you will find that after a very short while they were faster and got even faster. Look at the 80's, you couldn't win with a v10 or v12, those v6 turbos were blowing them into the weeds. Up to 1400 hp the Renaults were pulling in quali trim in the early 80's.............. Massive horsepower. These guys were wheel spinning going down straights !!!! But it might take a few years for engine builders to get around the rules and maybe the FIA might loosen the strings on HP etc.

**FranksterGM** · 19th May 2013, 11:23

Originally Posted by izybluffen

Turbo power "is" the pinnacle of motor racing, even though the 2014 motors wont be. Just look at any car racing in the world where turbos were introduced and you will find that after a very short while they were faster and got even faster. Look at the 80's, you couldn't win with a v10 or v12, those v6 turbos were blowing them into the weeds. Up to 1400 hp the Renaults were pulling in quali trim in the early 80's.............. Massive horsepower. These guys were wheel spinning going down straights !!!! But it might take a few years for engine builders to get around the rules and maybe the FIA might loosen the strings on HP etc.

But the normally aspirated enginess were limited to 3 litres.
Perhaps if they were allowedmore capaciy they could have matched.

**Bubbles** · 19th May 2013, 15:23

Guys, there's something I don't understand. It is said that the V6 will have more torque than the current V8 despite having less power. Now, isn't torque a measure of power? I don't get it.

**brembo man** · 19th May 2013, 16:05

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Guys, there's something I don't understand. It is said that the V6 will have more torque than the current V8 despite having less power. Now, isn't torque a measure of power? I don't get it.

I believe high torque power in the new v6 is available at low RPMs where Hp in the bigger V8 engines gets you going at high rpms. Probably no more need to reach 18,000 rpms to get the same speed.

**Bubbles** · 19th May 2013, 16:56

Originally Posted by brembo man

I believe high torque power in the new v6 is available at low RPMs where Hp in the bigger V8 engines gets you going at high rpms. Probably no more need to reach 18,000 rpms to get the same speed.

Ah, so the turbo produces more torque at lower revs, but doesn't reach the peak that the V8 can due to overall lower power, is that correct?

**Jas** · 19th May 2013, 22:02

Maybe renault are charging so much beacuse they were the most hyped up and adamant to have these regs, maybe this has resulted in a precieved idea that they will invest more time etc in it and thus a better engine?!? People are seriously undermining ferrari on the engine front aka media etc just cos they didnt want the regs! I sooo hope the renault engines have a lerformance deficit!!!!!

**hrc5555** · 19th May 2013, 22:50

It would be nice from Ferrari if they give us some informations about engine development and expected performances from new engine...

**Tobes** · 19th May 2013, 23:38

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Guys, there's something I don't understand. It is said that the V6 will have more torque than the current V8 despite having less power. Now, isn't torque a measure of power? I don't get it.

It is related but not a measurement of, horsepower is the measurement of power, torque is the rotating force applied to a fixed axis (like a wheel) based on the rpm, to work out torque figures you need the power and the rpm, torque isn't a direct measurement of power...

For example, take a Land Rover or similar with a 2.5l engine, top speed is 85mph but can pull trailers with two horses on them, a Ferrari with a 2.5l engine can't pull the trailer but has top speed of 170mph, both vehicles have similar power but the Land Rover has much more torque...

**Bubbles** · 19th May 2013, 23:45

Originally Posted by Tobes

It is related but not a measurement of, horsepower is the measurement of power, torque is the rotating force applied to a fixed axis (like a wheel) based on the rpm, to work out torque figures you need the power and the rpm, torque isn't a direct measurement of power...

For example, take a Land Rover or similar with a 2.5l engine, top speed is 85mph but can pull trailers with two horses on them, a Ferrari with a 2.5l engine can't pull the trailer but has top speed of 170mph, both vehicles have similar power but the Land Rover has much more torque...

I get it now.

So this means that the 2014 cars won't be as fast. Damn it.

**Tobes** · 19th May 2013, 23:54

Originally Posted by Bubbles

I get it now.

So this means that the 2014 cars won't be as fast. Damn it.

Not necessarily, The FIA is always trying to make the cars a bit slower but the engineers and designers get the speed back pretty quick, and more torgue at lower rpm will make the cars a little more difficult to drive out of slower corners especially in wet conditions as the rear wheels will spin up easier, but the best (and smoothest) drivers will benefit, I don't think there will be a significant change in lap times and in a year or two the times will be back to where we are now...

**Bubbles** · 20th May 2013, 00:04

Of course, with better aero you can compensate - to a degree - the loss of engine power, but what I just realized is that engine speed (i.e., RPM) is necessary to get the wheels spinning fast and the car moving fast. Of course, the gearbox adjusts that, but unless the aero becomes like 50% better than what it is now, you're going to look at those cars and say they're much slower. Those V6 engines will be spending most of their lives at 10.5K RPM, which is almost half of what's running now.

So the FIA decided to trade RPM - and speed - for lower fuel consumption and more torque. Isn't more torque bad for the fragile tires? How will those come together?

EDIT: There's also the possibility of using a much better fuel, one that gives as much energy for 1.6L as the current fuel for 2.4L, but that's not going to happen.