6 cylinder, I betOriginally Posted by Tifoso
64 years since our 1st GP
Not sure what the extra 6 is, though...
Moderatore
6 cylinder, I bet64 years since our 1st GP
Not sure what the extra 6 is, though...
-Lou(is)
Forza Ferrari 16/15
Totus Tuus
Cavallino Rampante
Thank you Tifoso. Now I know and can tell it to some friends how wanted to know:xmaswink: Thanks:xmastongue:
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I have just googled the name David Sanchez to find out more about him and couldn't find much. I read somewhere that he was working at renault in 2005 and went to Mclaren in 2007, but not as head of aero (not sure about that).
Maybe there is someone who knows more about his F1 career, it would be interesting for me.
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On this picture you can see very clear the solution of Red Bull (and also on the FW16 1994), that Ferrari is almost certain to copy.
You can see that the lower wishbone, driveshaft/axle shaft, is covered with a "fairing" which is in the shape of an aerofoil, combining the drive shaft into one of the arms.
Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".
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Well 642 and 643 were both introduced and raced in 1991, and both used a 65° V12. Does anybody know why the 458 chassis were codenamed F142, and how all that started? It might give a clue, as to why the F1 chassis are named the way they are
Religion? Ferrari!
Yep, and to add to that, we are racing with 8 cylinders in these days. 6 will come in 2014.
IF YOU CAN DREAM IT, YOU CAN DO IT - ENZO FERRARI
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http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/239...ala-posterioreFerrari 2013: how to stall the rear wing?
The Red will not be revolutionary, correct the mistakes of the F2012 and should try a new concept
Fernando Alonso has asked the most extreme Ferrari single-seater for 2013: the F2012 proved to be a very reliable car (zero shrinkage due to breakage), but not enough performance. Engineers directed by Pat Fry, so if you want the esaudiranno of Spanish will have to make a car more to the limits of regulation interpreting the rules which leave open ample room for development. What are the areas where action can be taken?
CORRECT ERRORS This is the question that you are making technical Formula 1 and it will be interesting to find out what the answers will come from the individual teams. The regulatory stability could lead to cars that resemble more and many will seek to correct the "errors" of the 2012 season, taking the Red Bull Racing RB8 as a reference point.
COMPETITIVE RED NOW? Even in Maranello not escape these thoughts, but I am well aware that if you want to win the championship you need a quantum leap, a shot of the kidneys that put Ferrari at the top of the group from the very first Grand Prix 2013. President Luca di Montezemolo hopes for some years a Red immediately competitive, but it is a bit 'engineers Cavallino not satisfied.
ALONSO: BE RECOVERED 6/8 TENTHS Without revolutions in the rules is unlikely that the 664 (project number) I can find a couple of seconds of the best competition, as has sadly happened at the beginning of the year at Jerez test: February 5, when the same Spanish track will officially open the 2013 season, it will be important to find out the new car can be "healthy", reserving the right to introduce the most important news in the last session of collective testing prior to shipment of the machines in Australia. Fernando Alonso says there are 6/8/10 to be recovered on Red Bull, a gap still important.
NOTHING REVOLUTIONS Ferrari, which is being developed at the Department of Racing, a car seems to be very traditional, direct daughter of F2012: do not expect Therefore, the revolutions over the front suspension layout with pull rod that will be copied by many other teams, there will be the rear fairing (the axle wrapped in the arms airfoil). Some people say that you will return to the radiator forward inclined to have a more tapered in the belly of the discharge and make better use of the Coanda effect to generate load in the rear, but there are those who believe that this layout is not too tempting because it would lead to substantially revise the weight distribution, which is defined by regulation.
HOW stall WINGS? And, then, what you are focusing on the men of the Horse? The rules limit the use of the wing moving only in the detection point (one or two per circuit) both in qualifying and in the race, reducing the impact of this solution. Not only that, but if you have the ambition to stay in front, the use of the DRS will be practically zero. The focus, therefore, is focusing on other aspects of aerodynamics: stall the wings when not in use the load. It is in this context that, probably, we will see some interesting solutions: the Double DRS has not been banned by the FIA as long as his command remains passive, meaning that its operation is not affected by the opening or closing of the wing Mobile .
IN THE HANDS OF SANCHEZ Thrown overboard the front of the Mercedes system (it always seemed a bluff, or rather a sort of "mirror of larks" used by Ross Brawn to have a good media effect), engineers are assessing how to "interpret" stall the rear wing. David Sanchez I should know something: French arrived in Maranello to Woking where he was responsible for the aerodynamics department, but now the Racing Division is under the command of Loic Bigois (another trans that came from Mercedes).
ALI MORE FLEXIBLE 'SUBSIDIARIES Sanchez is the interpreter of the front hose (with the tightening of testing: 10 mm instead of 20 mm bending as it was last year with a load of 100 kg will be a less important) than the rear of the speaker and . It is in the rear that there will be "something" interesting. In this context we are thrown headlong a bit 'all's experiments Lotus Mercedes and we have already seen in practice. Ferrari has never dedicated to Double DRS, but it has opened, however, a kind of study on the stall of the wing.
WHAT invent 'Newey? A topic that will a leader Adrian Newey, Red Bull Racing brilliant designer: those who can best solve this issue could build his lead in the 2013 season. But do not be fooled to see some solutions on the cars that will be presented. We had to wait patiently ...
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I think the correct title should be "how to prevent the rearwing from stalling", that was one of the main problems of the F2012, that they couldn't find the correct coefficients of lift and drag, most likely because of the windtunnel problems.
That caused the rearwing to stall and thereby not feed the diffusor anymore, wich results in loss of downforce and an unstable rear side, so if they don't solve the windtunnel problems, there's no way they can solve the rearwing problems.
The only time when stalling of the wing helps, if they can do it on a long straight, then the airflow gets messed up and reduces the drag, but they would need a different angle of wing, when entering the corner, a flex wing could do this, but the tests are going to be more severe on flex wings, so mr.Sanchez has a real problem on his hands.
Last edited by Massimo; 18th December 2012 at 21:55. Reason: extra text.
Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".
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"Fernando Alonso says there are 6/8/10 to be recovered on Red Bull, a gap still important."
I would say in the last races they were 6 tenths slower than red bull in qualifying and max. 2 tenths slower in the race. That's not a massive gap to recover.
In the last two years ferrari was one and a half second off the pace in the first raceand in a sport like F1 that's impossible to recover. In 2011 they had problems to understand the system of the blown diffuser and 2012 it was the rear of the car, espescially the DRS, that caused problems. The only thing I fear is ferrari having another terrible start in 2013, if Alonso would be 2 tenths off the pace in australia I would buy that.
"WHAT invent 'Newey? One topic that will a leader Adrian Newey, Red Bull Racing brilliant designer: who will solve the issue better could build his lead in the 2013 season. But do not be fooled to see some solutions on the cars that will be presented. We had to wait patiently ..."
I also would want to say something about Newey. He is a genius, but he is not the only man in the world who can build fast F1 cars. He will not have ideas like the blown diffuser every year. The 2012 Mclaren was faster and I don't see a reason why the 2013 ferrari can't be faster. The rules haven't changed a lot, they have sorted out the windtunnel issue once and for all, Ferrari has brought good people, people who will certainly have a positive impact in the future and find smart solutions.
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FA @ joseluisf1
According to some Italian press, will be in the back where the 2013 Ferrari could bring something 'interesting'
David Sanchez would have already analyzed the problems in the rear wing, and sought some 'interpretation' in the rules to improve
Salut Gilles
Not this guy again
Forza Ferrari
Alonso Maniac
I Will End My Career At Ferrari...
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I'm sure David Sanchez has found out what some of the problems with the rear wing are, but this year the biggest gain for Ferrari is to be found in preventing the rear wing and diffuser to stall, or to find the right angle of the wing in which it stalls, so it reduces drag significant.
For both solutions he will need spot on wind tunnel data and more accurate keys for exact interpretation of those data, without those his hands are tied.
So basically it comes down to the well known Achilles heel of the Scuderia, will they finally be able to sort out the wind tunnel issues.
Sempre Forza Ferrari!
Last edited by Massimo; 19th December 2012 at 11:26. Reason: grammar
Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".
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The people working at ferrari are too smart to do the same mistakes again. The windtunnel issue must not be an issue anymore. Nobody will accept that as an excuse again. The good thing is, that they do not have to build a hole new car, the rules haven't changed, that minimises the risk of failing again. It is just like some of you said, they have to find out what the problems were on last years car (preventing the rear wing and diffuser to stall, no DDRS) and that's it. That's not that big of a deal for people like Fry, Tombazis, Bigois, Sanchez etc. Last year we haven't had an aerodynamist, Tombazis had to to both designing and aerowork. This year Bigois and Sanchez joined the team, another good thing for ferrari. And don't forget, Alonso doesn't necessarily need the fastest car to win, as long as the car is not 1 seconds away from pole great news for us. I will be much more concerned before 2014, when the rules will change again and everybody has to step in the dark again.
Joseluis is a guy who gets all kind of informations and rumours from quiet a few people and he just shares these informations and rumours with all the fans. If they are wrong, it is not his fault, it is not like he makes something up because he has fun fooling people around. I am reading his comments for quiet a while now, and many things are right. If there is a rumour which has not been confirmed, he lets people know it is just a rumour.
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Why not?, They've been making the same mistake for three years now.
Don't get me wrong, i hope that you're right, but we've been hearing the same excuses about the windtunnel from 2010, and still they haven't been able to fix it, so everybody has been accepting those excuses for 3years already.
Ferrari haven't been able to produce a decent rearwing for at least the last 5 or 6 races, sorry, but i find that a complete disgrace for a team like our beloved Ferrari, they knew the problems the agressive DRS was giving them, and the stalling of the diffuser, resulting in a very unstable rear side, but had not been able to fix it all year, instead they reduced downforce at the front to make the rear more stable, wich made the car understeer.
That's because you need very accurate windtunnel data and keys for interpretation of those data, to solve that, and that is something Ferrari obviously still don't have, don't you think it's strange that after calibration of the tunnel in Maranello they still had the same problems? Then they doublechecked all new parts in the Toyota windtunnel in Cologne and found out they were not matching, so they used only the Toyota windtunnel, and guess what? Results on track were still not matching the results seen in the tunnel.
You know what that tell's me? It's not the tunnel, it's the engineers who interpretate the data, or the programs they use to do that, i'm very sure if they would use the McLaren tunnel, they'd still have problems.
So we can have Adrian Newey working for us, for all i care, without the knowledge how to use the CFD/windtunnel data, we are in the dark, no matter how briljant David Sanchez is.
Sorry Alec, it's not personal, it just irritates me, that a team like Ferrari have not been able to solve this.
But let's stay positive, with the new brilliant brains of Bigois, Sanchez and Agathangelou, we should be in good shape, if they manage to fight the windtunnel demon that is.
Sempre Forza Ferrari!
Last edited by Massimo; 19th December 2012 at 14:04. Reason: grammar
Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".
Full Member
Let us say that in australia the same thing happens again, Alonso is in the middle of nowhere. If that happens you are right to say it is a disgrace, and I am sure Montezemolo will react with serious consequences. Tombazis will have to go and Dominicali too. Tombazis is chief designer since 2008, so he is responsible for the last five cars, he will not survive another dissapointment. Dominicali is responsible for the team so he will have to leave too. But let us talk about that if the worst case really happens. As I said, nobody will accept the windtunnel issue once again. The only thing we as fans can do now is hope. Believe it and it will happen.:xmasbiggrin:
Salut Gilles
Bit early for some doom and gloom surely?
Forza Ferrari
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No doom and gloom here, just a passionate discussion, some of last seasons dissapointement i haven't diggested yet.
Don't worry, like every season i have a firm believe that this year we're going to do it.
Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".
Full Member
No doubt Red Bull will retain their advantage. Their car is fast the way it is now. At worse, they will just bring the same car if they can't update it.
But I think being able to start with a brand new chassis will give Ferrari a bigger boost. This year we were merely working around the F2012, fitting new stuff here and there but the car is basically the same, just with different bits and pieces. The new chassis will base on the same rules, but with everything we learn from this season as well.
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Well lets not forget that even after they started using the toyota windtunnel, they were still just trying to fix fundamental flaws with the car. It seemed to me they were introducing new wings to try and solve flow issues at the rear of the car that didn't work as expected with the original acer ducts.. maybe those problems can't be solved with cosmetic changes. Maybe the only way to get the f2012 to really work was a complete redesign and that may not have been practical. Now it is with a new car debuting. Hopefully the fundamental flaws will be fixed and updates will work as planned.
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I looks like they are going to use the side and exhaust concept that Red Bull and Sauber used, so i think we can expect a complete redesigned rear, including the solution Red Bull (and Williams in '94)where they encase the rear suspension with an aerodynamic foil, including the triangles of the suspension and the axle shaft, in this way, the whole rear suspension becomes an airflow profile. (posted a picture of it somewhere above).
As you might have read above, windtunnel still giving me a headache, if they solve that, we can beat any car on track.
Dr Ferdinand Porsche:" Nuvolari is the greatest driver of the past, the present, and the future".
Enzo Ferrari once drove with him and recalled even on bends "he never took his foot from the accelerator".
Full Member
To use the exhaust idea of RB, Ferrari would have to change their sidepods.
RB's are considerably lower than the F2012's.
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I think sidepods WILL be changed or at least adjusted to RB philosophy... What worries me is that we come with redesigned and evolutionised car with lots of RB philosophy incorporated in it meaning that RB still is one step forward cos they will also introduce new things (Newey never sleeps)... I really hope that smart heads in Ferrari will be also able to introduce something new, clever, touching the gray zone of rules that no team have come up with it yet...
Matthew
Pat Fry is head of chassis isn't he? I'm still not convinced by his performance/potential in that role. Lets look at his 2009 Mclaren MP4-24, his first chassis under the new regulations. High side pods, an exhaust solution that was very similar to our 2012 Acer Ducts, and they had a nightmare of a job understanding why updates they were bringing were making the car worse. The MP4-25, again, very high side pods, and an exhaust solution similar to the Acer ducts. Everybody else had the tightest coke bottle at the rear, and how we laughed at the clumsy looking Mclaren. A duff car, and in May that year, Pat left Mclaren. He started working with us for 2011, and well, that was a car to forget. He got more input for 2012 and what did we get? High sidepods, an Acer exhaust, and updates that made the car worse. Our best update was the revised exhaust, and where did we look for inspiration for that? Mclaren. I actually said at the launch of the F2012, I didn't recognise it as a Ferrari. Sure it was red, but those distinctive Ferrari forms, slim, tightly packed, elegant and simple lines and curves had gone, replaced by something that looked like Mclarens old bulky complicated staggered abrupt approach. If you painted the F2012 silver, it would look like the MP4-24, just with a stepped nose instead.
I've got so much admiration and respect for what our weekend race team managed to extract from it. It was a very special effort indeed, and I'm all for change in car philosophies if change means progress. Ferrari is bigger than any one individual working within it, but at the moment, Mr Fry, if I was to point my pointy finger, it would be pointing at you.
And before someone interjects with "well our wind tunnel isn't working", sure, that's a problem that Ferrari have carried over and that Pat Fry has had to work with. He's not responsible for it's failings. But he is at least partially responsible for not identifying sooner that it was creating problems. In the first winter test of the season, several of us on the forum identified that the poor handling characteristics of the F2012 must be wind tunnel/aero related. Alarm bells were ringing. But Ferrari categorically denied any problem. Heck, if a few ameteurs on an internet forum could see from thousands of miles away that we had a problem with the wind tunnel, why didn't Ferrari see/acknowledge it until so late in the season? If I was on the board, I'd be tuning off the air conditioning in our annual appraisal and making a few individuals perspire very heavily indeed. There'd be no snow in Maranello. I love Ferrari with every bone in my body, unreserved, but regretfully I think we're in more troubled times that Fernando's result this year would suggest. Until next season, we simply won't know if we've managed to get a handle on the issues we've been suffering. To look to the future, you've first got to get a handle on the past. Our immediate past, and the past of a few individuals is sadly a bit murky. I hope for the best though :xmasbiggrin:
Matthew
Double post for some reason?
Last edited by Rosso Corsa; 20th December 2012 at 10:31. Reason: double post
Banned
I appreciate what you are saying and am also frustrated with last few years on the technical side. Thing is Ferrari probably new wt was off preseason but denied it as it has to be confirmed in numbers. With people on forums they can take an educated guess then pat themselves on the back if proven right but in any role you have to confirm the facts with detailed analysis as perception alone can be misleading.
Naughty Word Mod
Domenicali: "We separate creativity and organization"
The Ferrari aerodynamics department is divided: some people who takes care of the car and the wind tunnel
December 20, 2012 14:14
Stefano Domenicali has already focused on the future: the director of Scuderia Ferrari wastes no time to analyze the 2012 season but lays the foundation for what is coming. The presentation of the 664 is scheduled between late January and early February: there is no confirmation but we are talking 1 or 2 February. Pending the car is interesting to see what's new organizational animate the Prancing Horse ... "We started a number of changes this year to meet a little 'to the problems that we have seen in the course of the season. The fronts of action are two: one creative character and the second methodological and organizational. In the summer we have different technical data organization, to leave more time for those who must deal with creativity. There is a facility that takes care of the car in 2013 and the head of this group is Simone remains, while a second team will take care of the car in 2014, led by Fabio Montague. These two engineers coordinate organizational activities for realizing a competitive car and on-time performance targets. " What's new is not only the creation of two project groups (as they do at McLaren for years), but also the division of labor in the field of aerodynamics, that more than any other has suffered in the course of the 2012 season, since not all packages evolutionary worked as expected ... "In aerodynamics have developed a plan which, fortunately, is already gone: c 'is someone who deals with the methodology of the gallery, using tools that are increasingly complex, and on the other there are those who study and organize the implementation of the parts to be tested efficiently on the scale model before you build the new parts to be mounted on the machine. So there's a division of tasks and responsibilities between those who have and those who bring ideas to ensure that the data analysis are correct. " In fact Pat Fry this year had to push forward the development of the F2012 in parallel with the restructuring of the factory adopting the most modern methods of work. A very complicated and difficult exercise that necessitated a more specific division of labor ... "Probably when you are working on several fronts to find the correlation between models of different scales and different galleries you lose track and in the right direction. In short, you are likely to have, as has happened in the second half of the season, moments in which technical development planned on the car is not what you want. " Meanwhile, it was closed, the wind tunnel in Maranello that is under renovation ... " We decided to work on a single gallery in Cologne, in order to concentrate on the renewal of Maranello in a defined time: will be ready in August. It is worth mentioning that the Toyota is a gallery that also uses the McLaren, do not speak, then, of a structure that can not generate competitive cars. " Inside the Race Department you are making a major transformation that is independent of the machine , but that has as its primary objective to make the factory more competitive competition ... "We want to make programs more weighted, without seeking the time, producing pieces for developing the last minute. Are methodological changes that require a different approach. That's what we've done on the track and what we started to do in the gallery and in the technical department. The area of production, however, is already good: those coming from other teams say that in this field we are doing a good job. "In 2013 there will be no revolutions regulations to which it is likely to see the cars in continuity with previous projects . What are the areas of change? "If I have to talk about the challenges of 2013, we must see and understand what will be the aerodynamic development taking into account that the regulations are going in the direction of continuity. Among the new features there are limits on the use of the DRS that will be used in the same areas of the race, maybe with an extension of meters long, but will no longer be free in free practice and qualifying. The effect on the performance of the DRS, therefore, will be less than this year. " Even the Pirelli tires will change to be heavier than 2 kg per train ... "We tested the prototype tires in Brazil and they gave us a direction follow in the definition of the mechanical geometry of the car. One thing is certain: we have to improve my performance on pure performance in qualifying, because this has been our Achilles' heel. And, despite everything, the final five races of the 2012 season Ferrari was the team that has scored the most points of all. " What is the third theme of development on which you are focusing on? "In addition to improving the car, and taking account the different effect of the DRS, we must also improve the time to get heat into the tires Pirelli. These are the main topics on which we are working. It should be emphasized that times are tighter than usual, because we are committed to bring new pieces on the track to the last GP. So did also Red Bull Racing and McLaren: I can say, therefore, that the development of the new car started just a couple of weeks before the last race. " At the presentation we expect any surprises? "As always, the machine you will also see the first test will be a launch vehicle: the true ... you will find only in the last test, to make the most of their work leading up to the Grand Prix of Australia. " In 2012 there were seven teams victorious. There will still be a balance so marked? "For 2013, I expect that all teams will push the development of the cars in the first half of the season and then who will be fighting for the world will stop to focus on the project in 2014 which is very complex and will require an investment in people and resources is very important. In short, I expect to see an opening in the fork between those who fight to win and who will have nothing to say ... ". President Montezemolo said that Ferrari wants a more leading role in defining the rules and more to the limit in the interpretation the same ... "When we know what the governance model for the future of F1, since it has yet to formalize all, we will continue our concepts in a very strong and, on this line, certain principles of democracy do not longer accept. There are teams that have decided to invest in assets such as simulators. I wonder from a media point of view that can generate the interest that a driver should be to run all day on the simulator. Not curious about anyone and if the cars could run on the track in testing we would be talking more about the Formula 1. We need to consider these aspects, we can not make the race a matter of laboratory. Those who have invested in simulators tries to defend his choices, and on the other hand there are those who spent money in Mugello. They will get over it ... shall press for the return of the test in F1, after the FIA annulled the one session that season, however, took place this year in May at Mugello? "I explained that the test are essential not only serve traditional development of the car, but we need to train the drivers, sponsors and bring to talk about Formula 1, the TV and the press. In order to be clear of simulators is never discussed. Some teams are changing their minds and I'm sure we will have a greater consensus next year ... ".
http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/240...organizzazione
CAVALLINO RAMPANTE PER SEMPRE
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I dont understand...will Nicholas still be in charge of the 2013 and 2014 cars eg activley designing?!?!?
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Mai Dare Sulla Speranza, Forza Ferrari!!
Cavallino Rampante
Translation please:xmastongue:?
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