2013 Malaysian GP: Race Thread

[mirafiori]

Hold on one second, Greig; let's have a look at what Dennis said about team orders, shall we?
"I am not perfect. The British press jumped on me, attacked me.
"It was difficult. I had to think about what was best for the team. What was put about in the media did affect our relationship. But we are trying to improve that.
"He absolutely deserved to win in Monaco. He drove one of the best races that I have even seen."
http://www.duemotori.com/news/f1/159...ndo_Alonso.php

And now, let's see what was reported a few years later:
"This has never come out before, but it was Dennis's actions after that race that so angered Alonso, and which convinced him the team would always be behind Hamilton and not him. That was the backdrop to the tumultuous fall-out that enveloped McLaren and Alonso as that famous 'spy-gate' summer unfolded.
As a McLaren insider revealed to me: "Fernando won in Monaco fair and square in 2007.
"Lewis was generally quicker through the weekend, but in qualifying Fernando did it and Lewis didn't. Lewis was quicker in the first run but then he made mistakes and Fernando got pole.
"Fernando won the race because he pulled an 11-second gap in the first stint when Lewis had (tyre) graining and after that Fernando was just cruising because we had rear brake issues.
"But after the race, Ron said to Fernando: 'Be nice to Lewis because we had to (pit) stop him early.' And Fernando said: 'What do you mean? I was just cruising.'
"He got very annoyed about that because it was like Ron saying we handed you the victory. Even after that, the relationship was unrecoverable."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewben...n_reargua.html

Now, I have a little exercise for those who have time (and want a bit of fun!): go here http://www.visionf1.com/ , choose the Monaco 2007 GP, and review the time differences between Alonso and Hamilton; and then, let's discuss if Hamilton would have been able to jump Alonso had he been out two more laps.

I am very surprised that anyone still buys the story that Hamilton did not win in Monaco 2007 because of team orders.

Very interesting and i do agree with you.

[Domo-kun]

Now, I have a little exercise for those who have time (and want a bit of fun!): go here http://www.visionf1.com/ , choose the Monaco 2007 GP, and review the time differences between Alonso and Hamilton; and then, let's discuss if Hamilton would have been able to jump Alonso had he been out two more laps.

I am very surprised that anyone still buys the story that Hamilton did not win in Monaco 2007 because of team orders.

Wait what? o_O
I watched that and the rest of 2007 just to see what you are on about, but I still don't get it.. Here's what I found:
(Oh, I took Felipe and Kimi along, as they were Ferrari drivers at the time)

Australia - RAI/HAM/ALO/MAS
Malasyia - ALO/HAM/MAS/RAI
Bahrain - MAS/HAM/ALO/RAI
Spain - MAS/HAM/RAI/ALO
Monaco - ALO/HAM/MAS/RAI
Canada - HAM/ALO/MAS/RAI
USA - HAM/ALO/MAS/RAI
France - MAS/RAI/HAM/ALO
Britain - HAM/RAI/ALO/MAS
Europe - RAI/MAS/ALO/HAM
Hungary - HAM/RAI/ALO/MAS
Turkey - MAS/RAI/HAM/ALO
Italy - ALO/HAM/MAS/RAI
Belgium - RAI/MAS/ALO/HAM
Japan - HAM/ALO/RAI/MAs
China - HAM/RAI/MAS/ALO
Brazil - MAS/RAI/ALO/HAM

Time Trial Results:
HAM-ALO = 11-6
MAS-RAI = 7-10

World Championship Results:
1) Kimi Räikkönen (110 points)
2) Lewis Hamilton (109 points)
3) Fernando Alonso (109 points)
4) Felipe Massa (94 points)

So .. what?
If Hamilton would have yielded, Alonso would have won?
But .. he .. I .. I do not understand your point.

Perhaps it's 'cos I'm not fluent english, please try to re-phrase your statement. OK? :)

[killer]

Point simply was Hamilton has (albeit reluctantly) obeyed team orders.

http://pitpass.com/48765-Team-Disorders

[Giallo 550]

There needs to be an end to breaks that are 2+ weeks long so TSN doesn't have to resort to discussing irrelevant minutia.

[Poltergeistes]

What Horner can't admit, but doesn't even have to, is the simple fact that he knows Alonso would never have done it.

Even if fernando had won the last 3 championships at ferrari, he would never had done what vettel did, cause fernando drives for ferrari, and vettel drives for a soft drink company.

Fernando would never have done this cause this would make Ferrari look weak, would make it seem like the driver's decision and happyness was above Ferrari's need to be in the charge and center of everything Ferrari is involved, which has been pretty much the team motto ever since Enzo started this.

and Ferrari has always been very open about how they want to be perceived, This is what makes us better than them, we were conceived to think, and act that we are superior, this from the very beginning of an idea on someones brain in maranello to whatever this transforms, even if the car isn't a winner, we are still the best. it's the beleiving that ferrari is superior that makes it superior.

[Katu]

There needs to be an end to breaks that are 2+ weeks long so TSN doesn't have to resort to discussing irrelevant minutia.

i think there has to be race every weekend in that case

[Corey]

cause fernando drives for ferrari, and vettel drives for a soft drink company.

Another poster from another thread really need to see this post. THIS LINE actually

[Meiga]

Point simply was Hamilton has (albeit reluctantly) obeyed team orders.

http://pitpass.com/48765-Team-Disorders

Very interesting read! Thank you for the link

Domo-kun, what I was trying to say is the following: go to the website I linked, visionf1.com, and select "replays", "2007", and then "r5 - Monaco". You will be taken to a page with the Monaco layout. Press "play", and you will get a re-run of the race, each driver represented by a dot. You may choose to show or hide drivers by clicking on the "driver display" boxes. On the table at your left hand side, you will get, lap by lap, the time differences. So, for example, after lap 1 you will get Alonso first, with a lap time of 1.24.494, and Hamilton second with a +0.6 secs gap. Massa, on third place, is already two secs behind the race leader.

Now, for the purpose of the discussion we were having ("is it true that Hamilton would have won Monaco 2007 had it not been because of team orders?"), you can hide all drivers except for Alonso and Hamilton, and check the time differences lap by lap. At the end of lap 25 the gap between them is 4.2 secs; ALO pits on lap 26, and he comes out behind Hamilton; by the end of lap 27 the time difference is 15.2 secs, and 15.3 at the end of lap 29. Hamilton then pits on lap 30, and by the end of lap 31 Alonso is again leading, and the gap to Hamilton is 4.8 secs. Or, in other words, after the first pit stop Alonso has slightly increased his gap to his teammate; Hamilton was not being able to reduce that gap during the two extra laps he had, and even if he had stayed out for another two laps it does not seem possible that he would have gained more than two secs per lap on his teammate. Hence, he had no chance of overtaking Alonso in that first pit stop.

Let's now look at the second pit stop. The ALO-HAM gap remains more or less stable till about lap 40, but then starts increasing till, by the end of lap 50, it has gone up to 10.9 secs. I assume this is what the article I quoted above explained by HAM having graining issues, but by lap 46 ALO is doing a 1:15:444 and HAM a 1:15:528, so it would seem that the issue is already sorted out (I haven't looked at the previous lap-by-lap times, but we can track those and see what we find). Anyway, Massa is now 42.4 secs behind the leader, so this is effectively a McLaren 1-2 race.

On lap 50, Alonso does a 1:15:859 and HAM a 1:16:789. ALO pits on lap 51, with a lap time of 1:34:058 and comes out behind Hamilton (lap time 1:15:980 on lap 51). On lap 52, ALO scores a 1:20:757 and HAM a 1:15:904; ALO is now 12 secs behind his teammate. On lap 53, ALO does a 1:17:049 and HAM, who has pitted, a 1:31:787, coming out behind ALO. On lap 54 ALO does a 1:17:622, and HAM a 1:19:01, and by the end of this lap 54 he is 4.1 secs behind ALO.

Now, Hamilton claims that he had fuel for two more laps and that, had he been left out for a few more laps, he would have overtaken his teammate. Let's assume that ALO would have scored the same lap times he had on his first two laps after his pit stop, ie, 1:17:049 and 1:17:622 - in total, 2:34:671. HAM claims that he could have closed the 4.1 secs gap, so that he would have done a 2:30:571 in those two laps. Or, in other words, and average of just below 1:15:300 for each lap. Please note that HAM's fastest lap of the race was set at 1:15:372 on lap 28, and if I am not mistaken he never again went below 1:15:450 during the whole race. Let's look at that in two other ways:
- 1: The fastest lap of the race was ALO's, on lap 44, with a 1:15:284; HAM claims that he could match that time twice in two consecutive laps.
- 2: Taking into account that HAM's last two laps before he pitted were 1:15:980 and 1:15:904, what he says is that he could shave off more than .6 secs per lap in those two extra laps.

I think that it is fair to say that the above analysis shows that HAM's claims that he would have closed that 4.1 secs to ALO had he stayed out for two more laps before his second pit stop are quite baseless. Also, we know that ALO had been told to go easy; or, in other words, it would be fair to assume that he could have done a better time than a 1:17:622 had he needed to, for example another 1:17:049, which would have forced Hamilton to go as low as 1:15:000 in order to overtake him.

Once ALO was ahead for the last stint, I believe that there is no way one can defend HAM could have overtaken him. As for claims that he was genuinely faster at that point, we cannot prove anything because we don't know when each driver was slowing down under team instructions and when he was showing his true pace, but I find it very unlikely and particularly I find it unlikely that such speed difference would have allowed for an overtaking in Monaco. I have often read people making the point that ALO looked very much in control of the car during that last stint while HAM looked he was risking a crash at any moment, but I haven't made that analysis myself.

I hope that this clarifies my point that, by looking at the race data, I fail to see how can anyone defend that, had it not been because of team orders, HAM would have won Monaco 2007. And it explains why ALO was ballistic that Dennis would not defend his job in front of the British press, and let them go along with the team orders story. By the way, it was Hamilton's claims of team oredrs that prompted the FIA investigation on McLaren, something people tend to forget and that I am sure got Alonso even more furious.

Sorry if it is a quite long explanation!

PS: Just two comments: one, please note that I am assuming that the data in visionf1 is correct; I never found it not to be, but obviously happy to be proven wrong. Two, please note that lap times are counted as cars go past the finish line and that the finish line is halfway through the pit, so a pit stop in fact covers two laps. That's why I look at the time gap one lap after the lap in which the car pits.

[mirafiori]

Meiga, I understood you the first time, and as I said I agree with you. The thing is you can put Ron Dennis and Hamilton in the same category (cry babies). Mclaren employed Alonso 2 TIME CHAMPION and then disrespected him.

[cokata]

Infiniti Red Bull Racing have reviewed the figures from their RB9 race car’s data log following the Malaysian Grand Prix and its official; the team has broken the record for fastest ever pit stop.

In fact, they beat the previous mark on five separate occasions during the race. Both Sebastian Vettel’s (lap 5) and Mark Webber’s (lap 7) first stops were 2.13s. The crew then lowered the new benchmark to 2.05s (lap 19) when Mark came in again, and his two subsequent stops were 2.21s (lap 31) and 2.26s (lap 43).

McLaren have held the record since last year’s German Grand Prix, when Jenson Button’s pit crew changed his tyres and got him going again in 2.3s, some 0.3s quicker than the previous best recorded.





On the other hand Massa's sucked

[Giallo 550]

i think there has to be race every weekend in that case

Sorry, I meant 3+.

[Greig]

Very interesting read! Thank you for the link

Nobody was saying Alonso only won due to team orders, just that Lewis did obey a team order when he was behind.

[Katu]

Sorry, I meant 3+.

i understood what you meant, but even race after ever other week makes some discussions too long and frankly boring

[sagi58]

Another poster from another thread really need to see this post. THIS LINE actually

To be honest, Nero beat me to making the comment!! Keep in mind one thing:
Underestimating your opponent is a the first step towards failure!!

[Tony]

Doesn't it look worse to refer to Red Bull as simply a soft drink company since they've beaten Ferrari in each of the last 3 years?

Red Bull is pretty much the Ferrari of the early 2000's.... I can only wish Ferrari could be more like them....

[Poltergeistes]

Doesn't it look worse to refer to Red Bull as simply a soft drink company since they've beaten Ferrari in each of the last 3 years?

Red Bull is pretty much the Ferrari of the early 2000's.... I can only wish Ferrari could be more like them....

I mean in terms of history, and accomplishments, i'm not saying that they have accomplished nothing, it's just that i find it harder to be successful for 60 years rather than 10.

in terms of teams, ferrari vs redbull... what ferrari means to the sport, and to the car industry, they don't even belong in the same league.

[sagi58]

...in terms of teams, ferrari vs redbull... what ferrari means to the sport, and to the car industry, they don't even belong in the same league.

You're absolutely right on this point!! And, I would imagine that pretty well anyone who knows about F1 would also agree with you, albeit some would do so grudgingly!

Maybe the fact that Red Bull are relatively new and don't have our history is like rubbing salt in wounds; but, that's not their fault, is it? They are in F1, like Ferrari is in F1, to win! We don't have to like them; but, we do have to accept that they have done better. I mean, by denigrate the competition and insisting that Ferrari is unequivocally the best, how do we defend the fact that we finished behind a "soft drinks company" the last three years?

As a team, we need to do more! We can not wait for the FIA to disqualify times, drivers, cars or teams, so that we can get ahead. We can not wish for favourable weather conditions, so that we can have an advantage. We can not bank on technical difficulties or poor strategies, to win races.

We are Ferrari and we will get back to the top, on our own merit!!

[Giallo 550]

how do we defend the fact that we finished behind a "soft drinks company" the last three years?

It's not that difficult. They've been found to be a bunch of cheaters umpteen times, and there have never been any repercussions for their actions.

[sagi58]

At the risk of sounding argumentative, a lot of F1 fans used to say the same thing about our beloved Ferrari!!

[killer]

I mean in terms of history, and accomplishments, i'm not saying that they have accomplished nothing, it's just that i find it harder to be successful for 60 years rather than 10.

in terms of teams, ferrari vs redbull... what ferrari means to the sport, and to the car industry, they don't even belong in the same league.

Mate, I believe Tony's point was that in referring to Red Bull as "just a maker of fizzy drinks", we actually embarrass ourselves more given that they have beaten us for the past 3 years.

[Poltergeistes]

Mate, I believe Tony's point was that in referring to Red Bull as "just a maker of fizzy drinks", we actually embarrass ourselves more given that they have beaten us for the past 3 years.

The whole point was that, ferrari actually stays, in that regard i give kudos to mclaren, who also stays, so does williams, i like this, there are teams coming and going all the time from F1. history is the ultimate test, if you invest alot of money and get together the right team, you can win, in that regard i say congratulations to redbull, or "that F1 team that right now is called redbull racing". My point was to say that in the big scheme of things, it's easier for a driver to simply drive over a team if the team's name isn't Ferrari, which is why i said Fernando would never do what Vettel did, cause of where each of them are working right now.

[Poltergeistes]

The whole point was that, ferrari actually stays, in that regard i give kudos to mclaren, who also stays, so does williams, i like this, there are teams coming and going all the time from F1. history is the ultimate test, if you invest alot of money and get together the right team, you can win, in that regard i say congratulations to redbull, or "that F1 team that right now is called redbull racing". My point was to say that in the big scheme of things, it's easier for a driver to simply drive over a team if the team's name isn't Ferrari, which is why i said Fernando would never do what Vettel did, cause of where each of them are working right now.

PS i'm talking about the history here, just to put into another sports case here, paris saint germain might even beat barcelona right now (which i dont think will but is possible) but they are not a real madrid, even if they spend big bucks like real madrid does. that's why i respect mclaren more than i do redbull, it's not so much disrespect to redbull, it's just that i like the rivalry, the history of it, cause it wouldn't even be there if it was just a fling, a decade long project, and not something bigger.

[sagi58]

... it's just that i like the rivalry, the history of it, cause it wouldn't even be there if it was just a fling, a decade long project, and not something bigger.

With all due respect, you seem to believe that F1 should be an elitest sport? Yes, it should about "la creme de la creme";
but, if it were an elitest organization which was interested only its own history, then I would suggest that we would not
be having this conversation, nor would this forum even exist!

Unless, of course, everyone here is a count / countess whose family comes from old money and I just happened to wander
in here by mistake, much like Alice in Wonderland?

[Meiga]

Nobody was saying Alonso only won due to team orders, just that Lewis did obey a team order when he was behind.

Ooops! Sorry, overreaction on my side.

My only excuse is that I am going through a hellish period in my everyday life (ie work), and my level of stress is sky high... I need a GP to discharge all my adrenaline!

[Senna4Ever]

... I need a GP to discharge all my adrenaline!

meanwhile I might offer my flat to clean?
all required material available

[REDARMYSOJA]

i understood what you meant, but even race after ever other week makes some discussions too long and frankly boring

That's why Bernie needs to embrace my idea of a year round, 24/7 F1 series.

Run with it Bernie, it's a winner.

[Ferrari_gal]

That's why Bernie needs to embrace my idea of a year round, 24/7 F1 series.

Run with it Bernie, it's a winner.

would be great ...

[Katu]

That's why Bernie needs to embrace my idea of a year round, 24/7 F1 series.

Run with it Bernie, it's a winner.

[Poltergeistes]

With all due respect, you seem to believe that F1 should be an elitest sport? Yes, it should about "la creme de la creme";
but, if it were an elitest organization which was interested only its own history, then I would suggest that we would not
be having this conversation, nor would this forum even exist!

Unless, of course, everyone here is a count / countess whose family comes from old money and I just happened to wander
in here by mistake, much like Alice in Wonderland?

i don't know how you could twist it that much.

but by the way, in a race unlike a game where only 2 teams starts, there are over 20 racers, only 1 will win, so to love f1 by definition is also being a little elitest as you say, don't we want to win the races? it's just sports, the reasons to love a sports team can't be based on logic alone can it? how can everyone's team be the best team in the world?

i still stand behind what i first said here, which was actually very logic, vettel is at least at the present, bigger than the team he is in, from his actions and specially from the team's reaction they also understand this, otherwise they would have chosen a different course of actions. and fernando isn't bigger than ferrari, that is why one did what he did, and the other wouldn't.

[Giallo 550]

With all due respect, you seem to believe that F1 should be an elitest sport? Yes, it should about "la creme de la creme";
but, if it were an elitest organization which was interested only its own history, then I would suggest that we would not
be having this conversation, nor would this forum even exist!

Unless, of course, everyone here is a count / countess whose family comes from old money and I just happened to wander
in here by mistake, much like Alice in Wonderland?

Huh?